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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 01:00 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
male-female sexuality feelings: irresistible sex-drive before; gratification after - evoking propagation and proliferation of mammalian species;


Take it easy wande. I've only been hinting at that stuff. Dr Strangelove would put me on Ignore if I did more than hint never mind the sweet little Christians we have on here.

We'll forget you quoted it eh? Or try to. The whole range of social etiquette is constructed on denying such things. I do wonder why the writer missed out the sense of shame and disgust which quickly replaces the "gratification after" in the sequence. In humans I mean. Civilised ones. I don't think the 95% of DNA we are said to share with monkeys includes that. It's supposed to be one way of telling how close one is to the monkey.

Better get back to Mr Freshwater and the Irish Museum I think.

Perhaps he's being polite.
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 01:14 pm
Quote:
male-female sexuality feelings: irresistible sex-drive before; gratification after - evoking propagation and proliferation of mammalian species;




I tried that pickup line once and was kicked in the groin with such incredible force that I slowly sunk to my knees as she made her exit.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 01:22 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
New genes get added on to earlier forms genomes so its a mathematical expansion that follows all the rules


What rules? Statics, dynamics and probabilities. Well then--of course. There are no other rules. You've said nothing fm. Which is consistent with hearing nothing.

What are genes btw? Aside from what science articles in the Sunday papers say. The "thingies" for passing characterics down the generations won't do at all I'm afraid. That's for graduates. Like that one Mrs Robinson wrung out like a dishcloth. This is a science thread.

When they are "added on" in what sense do you mean? Piled up or sticking to or like when you remember something you wanted for your authentic currach in the DIY store after the check out girl has finished and you go get it and she adds it on.

I hope nobody thought you had said anything. It's ******* mumbo-jumbo and obviously so.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 01:37 pm
@gustavratzenhofer,
Quote:
I tried that pickup line once and was kicked in the groin with such incredible force that I slowly sunk to my knees as she made her exit.


You will chase after high class broads Gus. I've been warning men about high class broads for many years. I wrote to Prince Charles about it once but I lost my bottle and didn't post it. Maybe I unconsciously preferred to let it happen. It was when he announced his engagement.

You deserved it. You have to go slow with high class broads like Lucien Lewen was advised by an experienced senior officer.

How many drinks had you bought her? It must have been a first night meeting. You would never say anything like that to a lady you had treated to candlelit dinners. Except maybe ironically but then you would have got a laugh and not a kick.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 01:43 pm
@gustavratzenhofer,
Gus! You are back! We have a new member on this thread by the name of Ionus. Have you two met?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 02:11 pm
@wandeljw,
Come on wande--you are using Gus as a smokescreen to avoid apologising for lowering the tone of this thread.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 09:06 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
for the Australian
You are amero-centric to the point of being dull witted. nationality may intimidate you, but it is meaningless to me.
Quote:
Im amazed that you even recognize that they are facts.
I'm amazed you thing your verbose garbage is relevant.
Quote:
The douche bag who is trying to "spin" a tech paper makes it sound like this "refutes evolution"
You think if you successfully cross the road unaided you have refuted evolution. Your terror is controlling you. You see attempts to refutre evolution everywhere...we would be doomed without your sage advice....or not....possibly not.
Quote:
This is about as dumb as your " we can compare a chicken's to aT rex genome" post.
You mention that every chance you get. Why is it you think you won that ? Delusions of grandeur or the inability to follow something to its logical conclusion ?
Quote:
AM I close ?
Close to being thought of as a vindictive low life on a crusade to impress people with his own delsuions of greatness.
Quote:
The review article goes to great length how the word "Evolution" has never been uttered in the original paper.
Great length ???? No it doesnt. You having night terrors over this ?
Quote:
This was a pile of horse droppings that was used to infer a Creationist POV when all it did was present a scientific article that was only concerened about the functions of exons, codons , snd introns in the self organization of nucleotides and amino acids.
I ask people to research what you have said there and they will see what a know-nothing you are....throwing in terms to sound like you know what you are talking about...and you fail students who complained of how incomprehensible you are...they didnt have the right stuff like you did they ? Does it ever occur to you to say things simply rather then trying to impress with terminology ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 09:07 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
If you dont understand , maybe its not me who is the problem.
Obviously it is not your fault, you are the one incapable of understanding science enough to say what it really means without hiding in the refuse of verbose techno-babble in the hope no-one will call your bluff. Well I am calling it.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 09:11 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I still think that you actually have homoerotic thoughts about me and this is your way to seek approval.
Anyone who carries on about colons and their contents as much as you should have avoided that topic....bit of animal buggery is good for the soul, is it ?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 09:17 pm
@Ionus,
My interest in colons is purely clinical since you are the first organism the Ive heard that can speak out of his.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 01:24 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
My interest in colons is purely clinical
Very Happy Is that your best ?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 03:13 pm
@Ionus,
It's very odd Io that fm should say this--

Quote:
My interest in colons is purely clinical since you are the first organism the Ive heard that can speak out of his.


He has accused me of that a few hundred times and I have no doubt many others.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 06:26 pm
@spendius,
Actually shpendi, I have always accused you of having an anal/ cranial inversion. There is a difference. Anus is biterminally fluent .You just talk our of your ass because your cortex is wired thus.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 06:46 pm
@spendius,
I think FM is a closet homosexual and the frustration keeps him focussed on colons and what is in them.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 08:01 pm
@Ionus,
Now that I have your attentions, allow NCSE to summarize a listing of the top 10 Creation/ID cases in the US and their significance. Perhaps we can learn something (or at least alow some of our UK and antipodal members to get some technical material in their pencil boxes)

Quote:
Ten Major Court Cases about Evolution and Creationism, Including Intelligent Design


by Molleen Matsumura & Louise Mead


In 1968, in Epperson v. Arkansas, the United States Supreme Court invalidated an Arkansas statute that prohibited the teaching of evolution. The Court held the statute unconstitutional on the grounds that the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution does not permit a state to require that teaching and learning must be tailored to the principles or prohibitions of any particular religious sect or doctrine. (Epperson v. Arkansas (1968) 393 U.S. 97, 37 U.S. Law Week 4017, 89 S. Ct. 266, 21 L. Ed 228)

In 1981, in Segraves v. State of California, the court found that the California State Board of Education's Science Framework, as written and as qualified by its antidogmatism policy, gave sufficient accommodation to the views of Segraves, contrary to his contention that class discussion of evolution prohibited his and his children's free exercise of religion. The anti-dogmatism policy provided that class discussions of origins should emphasize that scientific explanations focus on "how", not "ultimate cause", and that any speculative statements concerning origins, both in texts and in classes, should be presented conditionally, not dogmatically. The court's ruling also directed the Board of Education to disseminate the policy, which in 1989 was expanded to cover all areas of science, not just those concerning evolution. (Segraves v. California (1981) Sacramento Superior Court #278978)

In 1982, in McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education, a federal court held that a "balanced treatment" statute violated the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution. The Arkansas statute required public schools to give balanced treatment to "creation-science" and "evolution-science". In a decision that gave a detailed definition of the term "science", the court declared that "creation science" is not in fact a science. The court also found that the statute did not have a secular purpose, noting that the statute used language peculiar to creationist literature. The theory of evolution does not presuppose either the absence or the presence of a creator. (McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education (1982) 529 F. Supp. 1255, 50 U.S. Law Week 2412)

In 1987, in Edwards v. Aguillard, the U.S. Supreme Court held unconstitutional Louisiana's "Creationism Act". This statute prohibited the teaching of evolution in public schools, except when it was accompanied by instruction in "creation science". The Court found that, by advancing the religious belief that a supernatural being created humankind, which is embraced by the term creation science, the act impermissibly endorses religion. In addition, the Court found that the provision of a comprehensive science education is undermined when it is forbidden to teach evolution except when creation science is also taught. (Edwards v. Aguillard (1987) 482 U.S. 578)


In 1990, in Webster v. New Lenox School District, the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals found that a school district may prohibit a teacher from teaching creation science in fulfilling its responsibility to ensure that the First Amendment's establishment clause is not violated and that religious beliefs are not injected into the public school curriculum. The court upheld a district court finding that the school district had not violated Webster's free speech rights when it prohibited him from teaching "creation science", since it is a form of religious advocacy. (Webster v. New Lenox School District #122, 917 F. 2d 1004)


In 1994, in Peloza v. Capistrano School District, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a district court finding that a teacher's First Amendment right to free exercise of religion is not violated by a school district's requirement that evolution be taught in biology classes. Rejecting plaintiff Peloza's definition of a "religion" of "evolutionism", the Court found that the district had simply and appropriately required a science teacher to teach a scientific theory in biology class. (John E. Peloza v. Capistrano Unified School District, (1994) 37 F. 3rd 517)

In 1997, in Freiler v. Tangipahoa Parish Board of Education, the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana rejected a policy requiring teachers to read aloud a disclaimer whenever they taught about evolution, ostensibly to promote "critical thinking". Noting that the policy singled out the theory of evolution for attention, that the only "concept" from which students were not to be "dissuaded" was "the Biblical concept of Creation", and that students were already encouraged to engage in critical thinking, the Court wrote that, "In mandating this disclaimer, the School Board is endorsing religion by disclaiming the teaching of evolution in such a manner as to convey the message that evolution is a religious viewpoint that runs counter to ... other religious views". Besides addressing disclaimer policies, the decision is noteworthy for recognizing that curriculum proposals for "intelligent design" are equivalent to proposals for teaching "creation science". (Freiler v Tangipahoa Board of Education, No. 94-3577 (E.D. La. Aug. 8, 1997). On August 13, 1999, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the decision; on June 19, 2000, the Supreme Court declined to hear the School Board's appeal, thus letting the lower court's decision stand.


In 2000, Minnesota State District Court Judge Bernard E. Borene dismissed the case of Rodney LeVake v Independent School District 656, et al. (Order Granting Defendants' Motion for Summary Judgment and Memorandum, Court File Nr. CX-99-793, District Court for the Third Judicial District of the State of Minnesota [2000]). High school biology teacher LeVake had argued for his right to teach "evidence both for and against the theory" of evolution. The school district considered the content of what he was teaching and concluded that it did not match the curriculum, which required the teaching of evolution. Given the large amount of case law requiring a teacher to teach the employing district's curriculum, the judge declared that LeVake did not have a free speech right to override the curriculum, nor was the district guilty of religious discrimination.


In January 2005, in Selman et al. v. Cobb County School District et al., U.S. District Judge Clarence Cooper ruled that a evolution warning label required in Cobb County textbooks violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The disclaimer stickers stated, "This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered." After the district court's decision, the stickers were removed from Cobb’s textbooks. The school district, however, appealed to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals and in May 2006 the Appeals Court remanded the case to the district court for clarification of the evidentiary record. On December 19, 2006, the lawsuit reached a settlement; the Cobb County School District agreed not to disclaim or denigrate evolution either orally or in written form.


On December 20, 2005, in Kitzmiller et al. v. Dover, U.S. District Court Judge John E. Jones III ordered the Dover Area School Board to refrain from maintaining an Intelligent Design Policy in any school within the Dover Area School District. The ID policy included a statement in the science curriculum that "students will be made aware of gaps/problems in Darwin's Theory and other theories of evolution including, but not limited to, intelligent design." Teachers were also required to announce to their biology classes that "Intelligent Design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin's view. The reference book Of Pandas and People is available for students to see if they would like to explore this view in an effort to gain an understanding of what Intelligent Design actually involves. As is true with any theory, students are encouraged to keep an open mind". In his 139-page ruling, Judge Jones wrote it was "abundantly clear that the Board's ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause". Furthermore, Judge Jones ruled that "ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents". In reference to whether Intelligent Design is science Judge Jones wrote ID "is not science and cannot be adjudged a valid, accepted scientific theory as it has failed to publish in peer-reviewed journals, engage in research and testing, and gain acceptance in the scientific community". This was the first challenge to the constitutionality of teaching "intelligent design" in the public school science classroom. (Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al., Case No. 04cv2688)


To appreciate how finely our courts go to adjudicate these cases is a pat on the back to our judicial system. Most all of these cases were brought by plaintiffs who were responding to the Creationists attempts to infiltrate the public schools.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 08:14 pm
@farmerman,
It must be recalled that, in EWppwerson, it was following the line begun at the SCopes trial, the underlying state law which forbad teaching evolution took another 40 years after Scopes to be overturned ona long standing appeal. The law that allowed Creationsim to be the sole explanation for the development oflife on the planet was the "Butler ACt" which was overturned just prior to the overturn of Scopes. ALl the rest that followed )above) were cases thatCreationists and IDers were attempting to get their snoots under the tent of reasonable science education.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 12:52 pm
@farmerman,
It is worth noting that anything fm posts on a science thread is worthless because he has me on Ignore. If there was a senior matriarch within his personal arrangements who was intercepting his mail and preventing anything reaching his attention which came from one of those naughty boys who might lead him astray it would be bad enough. But he is doing it to himself. His scientific credentials are non existent after that. And similarly anyone who has anybody on Ignore on a science thread.

And I don't see any possibility of an intellectually valid argument to refute that conclusion.

It is also very odd for a supposed evolutionist, which of course he isn't actually, to be setting such store on a few judicial decisions taking place in the space of a few years when it is well known how short the time span is in relation to evolution. As far as I know the invasion of Iraq was proceeded with on sound legal grounds as was the election of Mr Bush and fm disagreed with both those decisions.

There is also the small matter of whether evolution theory is sound science in anything like the same manner that the science of falling bodies is. It can hardly claim to be a universal explanation of phenomena when the vast bulk of the field it purports to explain is unobservable and what is observable is a minute fraction, at its largest, of what has taken place on earth since life began. Nor can the theory explain how life began nor how or why life took the route the evolution theory claims it did. It also fails the predictabilty test.

And that which is observable may have been specially selected to save the theory or interpreted to acheive the same end accompanied by incantations of "glitter" words with which to hypnotise the weak-minded. As with the recent fossil discovery which has turned out to be not what it was said to be in the premature ejaculatory gushes to which we were exposed at the time. There is certainly plenty of motive for such activity which any evolutionist would never underestimate.

And nor would he underestimate the advantages to the legal profession of undermining traditional religious beliefs and instiutions. All sources of authority are keen to undermine any others. Except when two or three sources combine to undermine one. If the legal profession, media and the scientific profession succeed in undermining religion they will turn on each other forthwith.

It is worth considering that an important function of religion is to provide other sources of authority with a common enemy in order to prevent that very thing. It may even be that religion was invented for no other reason than to provide an authority not depending solely on empirical and scientific evidence which we might find it impossible to organise complex societies with. The evidence of history supports such a contention. What empirical and scientific evidence could prevent wholesale "dog eat dog" modes of operation?

fm's citing of a few recent, very recent, judicial determinations by the most eminent members of one of the greediest professions known to mankind (see Francois Rabelais) and who will be leaders of various legal networks cuts no ice with me. The idea that these eminent men and women are intellectually independent thinkers is strictly for the sweet, pretty things.

fm is guilty of hero worship and on a selective basis. His science is non-existent. He's parleying his qualifications which obviously don't include correct English usage. He's a poseur. Science is his toy. To play with when he feels like it and discarded when he doesn't.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 05:03 pm
@farmerman,
Are you aware of the "case" of the Duke of Suffolk in the reign of Edward the Sixth.

It was considered by the temporal lawyers, the church lawyers, the juris-consulti, the juris-prudentis, the civilians, the advocates, the commissaries, the judges of the consistory and pregrogative courts of Caterbury and York and the master of the faculties.

It was decided that the mother was not kin to her child. The father even less so because the mother is the surer of the two.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 05:18 pm
@farmerman,
It is also of interest that a united front from judges has been challenged by at least 10 individuals who it presumably cost money whereas the judges were making money by expressing their united front in the same way a trades union or political party does.

The suggestion that the judiciary in 10 different cases each came down on one side in a manner unique to each case, as if common sense has been proved, when only what the legal profession wants has been , is disingenuous to put it at its mildest, when the same courts have legalised homosexuality, abortion and easy divorce. They need a united front against religion after that.

Your 10 cases fm prove nothing.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2010 05:21 am
UPDATE ON OHIO SCIENCE TEACHER HEARINGS
Quote:
Referee to inherit fired teacher’s case
(By Dean Narciso, THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH, June 6, 2010)

After more than 18 months of sporadic testimony for a process that will cost Mount Vernon schools more than $700,000 in legal fees, the end is near for a hearing on whether science teacher John Freshwater should keep his job.

Other deadlines have been broken, but attorneys for both sides and the hearing referee said there will be no additional delays. Tuesday will be the last day for testimony.

The district’s legal fees would have paid the annual salaries and benefits of several teachers or provided badly needed upgrades for educational equipment, such as computers. The dollar amount does not include the cost of the hearing referee.

The Mount Vernon school board voted in 2008 to fire Freshwater, saying he taught creationism and intelligent design, failed to remove religious materials from the classroom after being told to do so and burned crosses on students’ arms during science experiments.

He has denied doing anything wrong and is fighting to keep his job.

Before Ohio teachers can be fired, they are entitled to a hearing before a referee, who then will make a recommendation to the school board. Freshwater has been suspended without pay since before the hearing started on Aug. 20, 2008.

After Tuesday, the attorneys plan to submit written closing arguments to referee R. Lee Shepherd. He will file his recommendation to the school board within about two months, depending on when he receives the closing arguments.

David Millstone, the schools’ lead attorney, has cast Freshwater as a defiant public servant who willed his beliefs on students, defied orders to stop and flagrantly promoted Christian doctrine in the classroom.

Freshwater’s attorney, R. Kelly Hamilton, has criticized the school’s chief evidence, a report by human-resources firm HR Oncall, as being incomplete, inaccurate and unfair.

He says Freshwater conducted class no differently than many of his colleagues and is being singled out for failing to remove a personal Bible from his desk.

A source close to the case who is not permitted to publicly discuss compensation said Mount Vernon’s insurance coverage has already paid for the court reporter, but not attorney fees.

The district has no idea what Shepherd’s bill will be. The referee has said he plans to bill the district once the hearing is complete.

Shepherd would not discuss his pay, saying only that it will be based on his billable rate as a partner in a law firm in Shelby, northwest of Mansfield. Shepherd also is Shelby’s law director.

Shepherd has presided over several disciplinary hearings and said that this has been by far the longest.

Termination hearings are not quick, said Hollie Reedy, chief legal counsel for the Ohio School Boards Association.

“But I would say 20months is getting into the longer end of things. I just don’t understand why this has taken so long.”

Shepherd has allowed frequent delays because of conflicting attorney schedules, granted numerous rest breaks and rarely upheld objections by the attorneys.

The district and Freshwater selected Shepherd from among three attorneys recommended by the Ohio Department of Education.

Freshwater has professed his faith in God and kept his Bible in front of him throughout the hearing. But he denies that he preached from the book to students or even opened it in the classroom.

Several students have described Freshwater as a gifted teacher who inspired and cared about his students.

Millstone has said that Freshwater’s popularity has never been the issue. He has repeatedly stated that any one of several allegations against Freshwater would be grounds for his dismissal, including:

• Reckless action for placing an electrical device intended to test laboratory gases on students’ arms. Freshwater said he used the electrical device, a Tesla coil, on more than 900 students during his 20-plus-year career to illustrate electricity. But he said the Tesla coil never was forced on a student, that he never marked religious crosses on students and that only one student ever complained.

• Insubordination for refusing to remove a Bible from his desk.

• Violating the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution for displaying various religious materials, including posters of the Ten Commandments, in his classroom.

• Breaking rules governing the role of teacher-monitors at Fellowship of Christian Athletes meetings.

In 2003, Freshwater proposed a change of curriculum that would have permitted teachers to present alternative theories to evolution, an effort his critics, including several teachers, say he never abandoned.

His case has divided the community.

“We’re trying not to let it become so rancorous that it affects us a community,” said Richard Hoppe, a longtime resident who has attended nearly every day of the hearing.

“It’s divisive, but it’s not cripplingly rancorous.”
 

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