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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 03:28 pm
@wandeljw,
Who is paying for all this lot wande?

With less than 15,000 people in Mount Vernon I don't suppose any of the big hitters own the News.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 04:15 pm
@gungasnake,
The assumptions made in the papaer are somewhat irrelevant to the role that evolution plays. First off , all the specific segments of a genome are encoded into groups of three or multiples of three of the available amino acids. Thats merely an expansion with clearly limited end members.
WHy evolution want used is because the encoding and actions of one prticlular genome have nothing to say of how it translates to the portions of another species. This article makes it sound (Sort of) that DNA transcription is an internal product of some special creation.
The fact that we see"fossil" genes in animals that have dicarded a specific gene function (like HOX or the Alu insertion into the NANOF gene after the diversion of chimpanzee and humans commion ancestors).
I think the article is patting itself on the back for discovering a bleeding obvious gene function. Thearticle is totally soilent on the transfer and transcription of DNA and RNA , it doesnt discuss Uracil' transfer function nor does it even discuss the enzymes and ribosomes involved in cleaving at the specific points that it does with respect to specific species. This article is trying to say something that the underlying work had not implied or even mentioned
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 04:29 pm
@farmerman,
I think gunga has got fm a bit confused.

Can anybody give a brief account of what fm is saying. I can't make head or tail of it.
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:02 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
The difference between good teaching and bad teaching is the subordination of ones "ego" to the needs of the class and subject. I wouldnt expect you to understand that.
Thats strange because I have taught undergraduates and I didnt mark it as a badge of honour if I failed them like you do.
Quote:
Quote:
Why do you keep going on about creationism ? I dont want it taught in schools at all. Havent you read anything Ive said ?
You brought it up in the context of teaching religion in classes
So you havent read or understood anything .....which is it ? Dont you comprehend that you can teach religion without even mentioning Creationism ? The whole New Testament is full of ideology and moral teaching points, and Romans ( written by a homosexual, St Paul the Apostle) can be considered to be a very though provoking treatise on God. None of the old testamnet needs to be examined at all. Creationism has next to nothing to do with religion, it is about the power of priests.
Quote:
Ignoring Creationism is just as dumb as teaching it as a "valid Theory" to be used in the science curriculum itself.
You are over reacting. Creationism has only been around off and on since Darwin. Before that there was no conflict between evolution and science...evolution didnt exist. Even the litteral interpretation of the Old Tewstament as factual has only been around since the Reformation. The other 1,500 years were a walk in the park.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:13 pm
@gungasnake,
Excellent post, gunga. Take a bow...
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:16 pm
@Ionus,
You shouldn't be taking fm's sitting ducks away Io. He needs his easy targets.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:17 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Why do you think most anti-IDers have me on Ignore Io?
Out of fear and prejudice. They gave you a chance to accept their righteousness, and you didnt fall into line.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:27 pm
@Ionus,
They haven't got you on Ignore yet though Io. Maybe they don't fear you.

Actually, it has nothing to do with me. It's the arguments. That's how I know that they have no real scientific sensibility and are faking it with "the words that glitter".

What about Setanta's last post eh? Wasn't that brilliant?
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:28 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
What about Setanta's last post eh? Wasn't that brilliant?
We may have to discuss our divergent definitions of brilliant... Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:44 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Can anybody give a brief account of what fm is saying.
I will give it my best shot, spendi....

FM's text and my translation....
Quote:
The assumptions made in the papaer are somewhat irrelevant to the role that evolution plays.
Only assumptions in support of evolution are OK by him.
Quote:
all the specific segments of a genome are encoded into groups of three or multiples of three of the available amino acids.
Superfluous facts in an attempt to sound knowledgable.
Quote:
WHy evolution want used is because the encoding and actions of one prticlular genome have nothing to say of how it translates to the portions of another species.
The same genome in different species has different functions.
Quote:
This article makes it sound (Sort of) that DNA transcription is an internal product of some special creation.
He is worried that unless a paper condemns Creationism it may be used by them as support.
Quote:
The fact that we see"fossil" genes in animals that have dicarded a specific gene function (like HOX or the Alu insertion into the NANOF gene after the diversion of chimpanzee and humans commion ancestors).
This is not a sentence but I think it means there are genes that we dont know the use of and have assumed they are no longer used, with an example based on chimps and humans having a common ancestor.
Quote:
I think the article is patting itself on the back for discovering a bleeding obvious gene function.
He is angry and jealous no-one ever pats him on the back enough.
Quote:
Thearticle is totally soilent on the transfer and transcription of DNA and RNA , it doesnt discuss Uracil' transfer function nor does it even discuss the enzymes and ribosomes involved in cleaving at the specific points that it does with respect to specific species.
The article was quite lengthy and thorough but it didnt tell you everything there is to know about DNA.
Quote:
This article is trying to say something that the underlying work had not implied or even mentioned
He doesnt like the article.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 07:14 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
Only assumptions in support of evolution are OK by him.
If youre not smart enough to understand the paper and its conclusion, dont blame me . I DO understand it , evolution HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A SINGLE GENOME!!. Should I go more slowly for the Australian challenged one?

Quote:
Superfluous facts in an attempt to sound knowledgable.
Im amazed that you even recognize that they are facts. ALBEIT very key facts that explain how factorial analysis explains how ALL proteins are coded from group sets of three amino acids (or 6 or 9 or 12 or 15 or 18o or 21 etc) All of which are made up of groups of two linked nucleotides out of a complete pallette of 4 nucleotides in DNA and 4 for RNA (with the substitution of Uracil. The douche bag who is trying to "spin" a tech paper makes it sound like this "refutes evolution"

SInce most of your posts are full of toothless venom and are basically information free, I thought Id make it clearer for you>


Quote:
The same genome in different species has different functions.


This is about as dumb as your " we can compare a chicken's to aT rex genome" post. It isnt even a complete thought. Im getting the impression that you dont even know what the word :genome" means. AM I close ?


Quote:
This is not a sentence but I think it means there are genes that we dont know the use of and have assumed they are no longer used, with an example based on chimps and humans having a common ancestor.
Im sorry, you are correct that the sentence is incomplete. Let me fix it so you dont have the concern. Here it is corrected :

Quote:
The fact ISthat we see"fossil" genes in animals that have discarded a specific gene function (like HOX or the Alu insertion into the NANOG genethat occured after the diversion of chimpanzee and humans common ancestors).
. No, it means that we can compare similar loci of genomes from different (but genetically related species), and by that means we can actually measure the period of diversion form two separate but related species from their common ancestor. The review article goes to great length how the word "Evolution" has never been uttered in the original paper. WELL DUUUUHH, the paper wasnt about what self assembly even means to evolution. I was hoping that you could pick up on that point.


Quote:
The article was quite lengthy and thorough but it didnt tell you everything there is to know about DNA.
. I dont think Ill ask you to help critiqu a scientific article because you are easily impressed in non scientific garbage, I am not. This was a pile of horse droppings that was used to infer a Creationist POV when all it did was present a scientific article that was only concerened about the functions of exons, codons , snd introns in the self organization of nucleotides and amino acids. The chemistry of the assembly is only reporting on a single function. The article's reviewer, totally full of horse ****, is trying to squeeze out some conclusions that are not in the article. Thats why I brought the attention to readers about how the reporter failed to discuss HOW this is important to his POV.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 04:28 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
I thought Id make it clearer for you


Sheesh--this makes it clearer does it---

Quote:
ALBEIT very key facts that explain how factorial analysis explains how ALL proteins are coded from group sets of three amino acids (or 6 or 9 or 12 or 15 or 18o or 21 etc) All of which are made up of groups of two linked nucleotides out of a complete pallette of 4 nucleotides in DNA and 4 for RNA (with the substitution of Uracil.


Incredible!! How anybody thinks that explains anything is outside my zone. It's speaking in tongues. It's a ritualistic incantation associated with a belief system which caters to a congregation which is flattered to think it understands life processes and that with drivel of that nature it can persuade us all to admire it and set aside traditions on which our culture is based and join it on a ride to we know not where.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 05:58 am
@spendius,
MAybe thats why you should stick to trivia and "Extra Smooth". If you dont understand , maybe its not me who is the problem. Why not get angry at your science education
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 07:17 am
@farmerman,
You explained nothing. You parroted some "glitter" words. It was a justification for challenging your teaching methods. It might as well be in Latin. Just learn it off pat, regurgitate it in an exam and get a first off you. That's not education.

Anyway--I was on Ignore and dead you said only the other day. And asserting that I'm angry is something to do with you. It has nothing to do with me and it isn't an argument either. It's fatuous.
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 08:25 am
Spendius:
Seriously, 'glitter words'?? Speaking in tongues??

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
ALBEIT very key facts that explain how factorial analysis explains how ALL proteins are coded from group sets of three amino acids (or 6 or 9 or 12 or 15 or 18o or 21 etc) All of which are made up of groups of two linked nucleotides out of a complete pallette of 4 nucleotides in DNA and 4 for RNA (with the substitution of Uracil
.

Incredible!! How anybody thinks that explains anything is outside my zone. It's speaking in tongues. It's a ritualistic incantation associated with a belief system which caters to a congregation which is flattered to think it understands life processes and that with drivel of that nature it can persuade us all to admire it and set aside traditions on which our culture is based and join it on a ride to we know not where.


What you say here continues to be myopic and unhelpful.
"...set aside traditions on which our culture is based..." Yes, perhaps like deciding that disease is not caused by humors of the blood or agreeing that the Milky Way is not the entire Universe or that species do not spring forth from decaying vegetable matter---amongst so many other 'traditions of our culture' that were finally seen as untrue, but, when dispensed with, did not cause the fall of civilization, rather civilization, advanced.

Give it up.

You'll now reply with some deflective remark, completely off point, and attempt perhaps by being even more boring than usual, to head the conversation in a direction away from facing facts.

Joe(facts Not Equal to glitter words.)Nation
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 09:44 am
I came across this book by accident. It apparently has a densely complicated argument about how people are being brainwashed by evolution theory and that intelligent design is the only answer. Has anyone heard of it?

http://i43.tower.com/images/mm112406012/brainwashed-miracles-perceived-mind-set-secular-elite-re-aaron-l-kolom-hardcover-cover-art.jpg

Here is a "product description" of the book:
Quote:
No rational mind - given the evidence of buttons and buttonholes in an article of clothing - would deny that both "intelligence" and "design" played roles in the fabrication of such a garment, but - mystery of mysteries - the brightest and most educated in our culture, reject such considerations for all the infinitely more complex living organisms, insisting (dogmatically) that they somehow "evolved" by haphazard, sequential, random mutations. A challenge is therefore, proposed - to anyone anti-"Intelligent Designer", who believes he has not been "brain-washed", but who has at least a "hair-line crack" to open-mindedness - to refute the material herein - the non-factuality and astronomical improbabilities of pure random-chance-mutations of individual elements (among the multi-billions in the DNA helix) as a credible belief system in explaining: ü the spider, butterfly, or bacterium flagellum (Pajaro Dunes Micro-Biology Conference - scientists challenging Darwinism); ü male-female sexuality feelings: irresistible sex-drive before; gratification after - evoking propagation and proliferation of mammalian species; ü the (simple, yet ever so complex) umbilical cord concept for mammals - from kittens to humans? This book is a scholarly review (in layman terms) of all pertinent aspects of Science versus Bible in all applicable fields: Archaeology, Astronomy, Biology, Cosmology, Egyptology, Paleontology, Physics, etc., with over 300 references to the arcane writings of world-class scientists, historians, mathematicians and adventurers.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 09:49 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

http://i43.tower.com/images/mm112406012/brainwashed-miracles-perceived-mind-set-secular-elite-re-aaron-l-kolom-hardcover-cover-art.jpg

Here is a "product description" of the book:
Quote:
...insisting (dogmatically) that they somehow "evolved" by haphazard, sequential, random mutations. A challenge is therefore, proposed - to anyone anti-"Intelligent Designer", who believes he has not been "brain-washed", but who has at least a "hair-line crack" to open-mindedness - to refute the material herein - the non-factuality and astronomical improbabilities of pure random-chance-mutations of individual elements (among the multi-billions in the DNA helix) as a credible belief system in explaining:...


It's clear that the author just missed a little thing called "Natural Selection" when learning about evolution. Perhaps he spent too much time studying "the controversy" rather than actually learning the science.
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 11:07 am
@rosborne979,
Hes also missing the point that genomes of all similar organisms, (say from fish to reptiles or reptiles to mammals) ALL have essentially the same genome with only specific genes missing or turned off. New genes get added on to earlier forms genomes so its a mathematical expansion that follows all the rules
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 12:09 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Anyway--I was on Ignore and dead you said only the other day. And asserting that I'm angry is something to do with you. It has nothing to do with me and it isn't an argument either. It's fatuous.
You still are on ignore, I was responding to ionus stupid remark with which you apparently<(For some showboat reasons) decided to agree. The fact is that you NEED to try to get my sttention , since Im your main target. I still think that you actually have homoerotic thoughts about me and this is your way to seek approval.

AS far as your inability to understand, dont try to make that my problem. Your span of attention seems a bit on the short side so I am not surprised that you dont engage in anything more palpable than erotic literature and womens underwear.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 12:17 pm
@Joe Nation,
Quote:
Seriously, 'glitter words'?? Speaking in tongues??


This is what I was referring to Joe.

Quote:
ALBEIT very key facts that explain how factorial analysis explains how ALL proteins are coded from group sets of three amino acids (or 6 or 9 or 12 or 15 or 18o or 21 etc) All of which are made up of groups of two linked nucleotides out of a complete pallette of 4 nucleotides in DNA and 4 for RNA (with the substitution of Uracil.


I was being kind I thought. It is unmitigated, pointless, Unwinian bullshit. If you have any clue what it means or what any of the glitter words mean do us all a favour and enlighten us. And don't bother telling us that amino acids, an easy one, are basic chemical units from which proteins are synthesised by the body and are essential to all forms of life because the phrase "amino acids" is just shorthand for that and, as such, ideal for shorthanders.

Quote:
What you say here continues to be myopic and unhelpful.


Easy to say Joe. It looks like assertionitis is catching. I hope you confine it to A2K where it is harmless. Socially it's deadly.

I can argue that disease is caused by humours of the blood in a large number of cases. A majority. I never heard of anybody maintaining that the Milky Way was the entire universe. And decaying vegetable matter is where all species spring from. Try doing without it.

Put me on Ignore Joe.. that's my advice.

0 Replies
 
 

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