Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

@wandeljw,

Quote:

Creationist attacks on evolution "have polarized the public opinion such that you're either religious or you're a scientist!" a devout physicist complains.

I think there are as many attacks on religion coming from the other side although judging from wande's post they are coming from non-scientists like our anti-ID crew on here who are simply using science as an excuse to primp their egos and interests.

Quote:

Indeed, the National Science Board recently spiked a report on American knowledge about evolution, claiming that it was too difficult to tell the difference between religious objections to evolution and questions raised about the state of the science.

That's interesting. It makes the standard anti-IDer's comparison between evolution and the rest of science, about which no questions are raised, look as ridiculous as I have been telling them for six years. Perhaps they'll put the NSB on Ignore now.

1 Reply

@spendius,

OH yeh, besides despair, there is paranoia.
Wonder why many people just shut the door on these Evangelical clowns?

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Thats my State !!! Go the mighty Maroons !!

Debating the subject will do more to destroy Creationism as a science than anything else could.

I remember that you once mentioned Queensland. You should let us know about any developments. According to the news item, teachers are evaluating the new policy.

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this past thursday evening I received a phone call. "hello, my name is Dr Reverend John ****** and I'm calling to raise funds to start a university campus center devoted to counteract university science teachings of evolution. we need funding to spread the word that the creation described in the bible is the only true understanding, if you're a true christian you should donate to the cause of bringing truth to the innocent students at our public university here in albaturkey."
I just said "you've got the wrong number" then I hung up.

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@farmerman,

Why don't you give your jejune flippancy a rest fm and answer the points?

I think you are ineducable on these matters. You have no historic or scientific sensibility. You cannot place the history of ideas in any sort of context and instead you simply assume that the only relations an idea can have is with the facts which constitute its object and matter.

But ideas and opinions are active and dynamic elements in human life. They are not inorganic objects unless you go the whole hog with the Materialist Theory of Mind where free-will is seen as a delusion and every thought, feeling and emotion is a conditioned reflex. If you went the whole hog with that you could make a case but as you daren't you drift in confusion.

A proper scientific sensibility will give full weight to the dynamic aspects of an idea, an opinion and a belief. To see them purely in terms of the objects and matter of which they consist is profoundly unscientific. The ideas and beliefs expressed in the US Constitution, which are by no means universally accepted, not even by some Americans, act when accepted to strengthen the document's validity. Taking prisoners from neighbouring tribes to sacrifice to the sun-god increases the power and reach of the tribe which engages in the practice irrespective of whether the sun-god responds with favours to the tribe. You would have called into question the sun-god's potential for granting benefits to your tribe using scientific evidence and had your view prevailed the neighbouring tribe would not be long before it was sacrificing your tribe to its moon-god.

You're just a silly sod fm who thinks that only the explanations you understand constitute the total of explanations and that there is no possibility of any other. History shows that the dynamic aspect of beliefs is a potent force in human life no matter how daft the beliefs are. And to undervalue, or deny, dynamic force points in relation to anything, belief, money, tradition, matter and energy is to reject the whole Faustian scientific project and modern science and to set sail around the Omphalos in ever decreasing circles like a silly old ancient Greek who also thought he was the centre of the universe.

Your language gives you away. It is intemperate. You cannot debate without your assertions which are nothing different to fashion statements. And "many people" is snake-oil sales talk. "Clowns" is just pathetic after six years but I suppose only to be expected of somebody who is spiralling into his own omphalos in ever decreasing circles. A2Kers who no longer feel insulted by such usages have probably recognised that you are not capable of being educated.

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@dyslexia,

That was very rude, dys. You ought to have cut him a check for $800 and offered to contact the Gideons to get them free Bibles.

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J.G.Frazer wrote in The Golden Bough in relation to sorcerers, wizards and sympathetic magic--

Quote:

The general result is that at this stage of evolution the supreme power tends to fall into the hands of men of the keenest intelligence and the most unscrupulous character. If we could balance the harm they do by their knavery against the benefits they confer by their superior sagacity, it might well be found that the good greatly outweighed the evil. For more mischief has probably been wrought in the world by honest fools in high places than by intelligent rascals. Once your shrewd rogue has attained the height of his ambition, and has no longer any selfish end to further, he may, and often does, turn his talents, his experience, his resources, to the service of the public.

To continually be seen to be banging on about unscrupulous characters and intelligent rascals as if all we need do is replace them by honest fools and we will all come up smelling of roses is to be seen to be putting on Ignore not only the historical record but the simple fact that the USA has rejected atheist leaders and scientists throughout its long and glorious history.

And Dawkins looks as honest a fool as ever walked the earth. As did Darwin.

What a nice, cute conceit it is to focus on unscrupulous characters and intelligent rascals when no honest fools have ever been in charge of anything and can be portrayed as whiter than white because they never had the chance to be anything else. Except maybe in Communist countries.

That is an example of my contention that anti-IDers have no historical or scientific sensibility. They select swots who have their heads in their technical manuals, a lot of which are not very technical at all once translated into ordinary English, to such an extent that how the world works passes them by and who are content to just assert that their opponents are "clowns" without offering any more evidence than that they have asserted it. And never offer themselves to the scrutiny of the hustings where resort to Ignore gets them pelted with rotting fruit.

Frazer even goes on to remark that American independence was the result of that great honest fool George III but I won't dwell on that as I know you all think it was the superior nature of American manhood that did it.

One might assume that when Mr and Mrs Obama, Mr and Mrs Biden and Mr and Mrs Clinton sat down on the front pew of the church after the Inauguration it was because they were aware of JG's wise warning.

It might help your reverences and your worships and madams if you upped your class of reading. wande's quotes are dire in the extreme and aimed at the most gullible monkeys.

1 Reply

@spendius,

The more of my posts that go unanswered the more hopeless becomes the position of anti-IDers. And we must be up in the high hundreds by now.

It's starting to look as if you can only swim in the deep end if your Moms have blown your water-wings up and stopped anybody splashing. Any serious anti-IDer would beg you all to **** off.

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@wandeljw,

I certainly will keep an eye on it. I object to religious brainwashing but I see this as communication between two camps growing further apart...that has to be a good thing.

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@dyslexia,

Quote:

I just said "you've got the wrong number" then I hung up.

You should have said you were down on your luck and could he spare some money to help you out.

1 Reply

@Ionus,

The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has defined the section of its biology curriculum that covers evolution .
Sec 11.3.3.1 S11.B.2.1.1:

Explain the theory of evolution by interpreting data from fossil records, similarities in anatomy and physiology, or DNA studies that are relevant to the theory of evolution.

The above section (in the Biology standard of Pa's SAS (Standards Aligned System), is covered only after students are presented the entire concept of genetics, DNA/RNA, and chromosomal structure and mutation.

This is merely an example of how most states cover these subjects and require testing to show proficiency and understanding of the basis in science and the entire concepts from genetics to the function of genes and the evolutionary process.
No other crap is included in the curriculum other than some brief discussions of the development of biology and medcine through time. Creationim, while not ridiculed, is not presented in the the best light. The understandings that Creationism was "the only game in town" during the period up until Buffon and Cuvier, is presented in the sense that it was all there was, despite ARistotle and the few early scientists who speculated on mutability of life through time.

So Louisiana and Texas are still the standout examples of high school standards where the issue of evolution is being presented as an "Optional and possibly VALID'' alternative.

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@farmerman,

Some of those door to door clowns came by the house recently, and they had a little prepared speech which i'm sure they thought was clever. The woman asked me if i thought there were enough hours in the day to accomplish everything i wanted to do. I said that yes, there were. (Hey, i'm no Protestant--i don't have those obsessions.) She seemed a little non-plussed, but she forged on and asked me if the demands of everyday life didn't get me down from time to time. I told her no. So, she screwed her courage to the sticking point and asked me if she and her friends could pray with me. I told her no, and pointed out that they were upsetting the little doggies, and all the barking would probably soon get on my last nerve. Therefore, so that i'd have enough time in the day to do everything i wanted to do, and so the barking didn't get me down, i thought they should move along.

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@Setanta,

They never learn. Seems that if they insist on axing you stupid questions like that, they oughta have some printed reponse so they can stay on message .

"Theres enough time fer me, I get mosta my really heavy work doe on Sundays while them other mow rons is in church. Now whats yer point bitch"
(If ya moved back to the US you wouldnt have to be so polite-Theres another minor difference)

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@Setanta,

What's that "last nerve" all about then? It sounds pretty tense.

One presumes the dogs bark at plumbers, electricians and other callers.

1 Reply

UK UPDATE

Quote:

Nelson McCausland ‘met creationists before museums request’
(Belfast Telegraph, May 31, 2010)

Culture Minister Nelson McCausland made his controversial calls for museums across Northern Ireland to give more recognition to creationism beliefs after meeting a group of Bible evangelists led by a fellow DUP man, it has emerged.

The Caleb Foundation, a group renowned for its staunch defence of the literal truth of the Bible story, said Mr McCausland penned a letter outlining his views to museum chiefs after meeting members of the group to hear their concerns.

The Culture Minister was last week accused of trying to interfere in the running of museums in the province after it emerged he wrote to the trustees of National Museums Northern Ireland (NMNI) asking them to give more prominence to Ulster-Scots and the Orange Order in exhibits.

Most controversially, he also asked for alternative views on the origin of the universe " including the creationism concept of God creating the universe in contrast to the scientific theory of evolution " to be represented in the exhibitions.

Chair of the Caleb Foundation, Wallace Thompson, a member of the DUP, confirmed a delegation met Mr McCausland late last year.

They said the minister was receptive to their concerns that the museum showed a “lack of balance which had tipped sideways so far, it had fallen right over”.

In a letter to Mr McCausland last April, the Foundation said it was “absolutely appalled” at the exhibits in the revamped Ulster Museum, which it described as “wholly misleading propaganda”.

The letter added: “Those who visit the Nature Zone, including impressionable young children, will be seriously misled and misinformed.”

The Nature Zone explores the widely-accepted scientific theory of evolution.

Mr Thompson told the Sunday Times that most of the Caleb group’s members were apolitical but added: “Devolution has helped us in that in a number of key departments, like finance, tourism, culture, arts and leisure, we have ministers sympathetic to where we are coming from.”

Mr McCausland denied his letter to the museum trustees had been prompted by meeting the Caleb Foundation delegation.

“All public bodies must take account of such matters as good relations, equality and human rights and it is my responsibility as Minister to remind arm’s-length bodies of these things.” He said the inclusion of anti-Darwinian theories was “a human-rights issue”.

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@spendius,

There are two distinct definitions of "Nature" going all the way back to Socrates.

1--Nature is all the powers either within or without us and everything which takes place as a result of those powers.

2--Nature is everything that takes place without the voluntary and intentional agency of man.

In the first case it is idiotic, has no meaning, to "follow Nature" because we have no power to do anything else. Obviously. There is no free will or freedom of action and there is no right and no wrong. Obeying the laws of Nature, in this case, is absurd.

In the second case we have choices concerning our voluntary intentions which make no sense unless they go against Nature. i.e, are "artificial" (Art). The art of living.

The exercise of these choices will give various amounts of power to groups which can impose their particular choice on society. The anti-IDer, instead of wittering about an incident on his doorstep which we have only his word that it took place, and we know he has an interest in inventing, has a duty to explain why his choice can be justifiably imposed on society and the choice of others be rejected. That is important in all cases but particularly when his choice has already been rejected by the vast bulk of the population and he is thus offering a revolutionary alternative no matter how sensible it seems to him and for whatever reasons he has reached such a conclusion. It is mere common decency in adult debate on important issues. Failure to do so justifies the rejection of everything he says. As does going from year to year and decade to decade referring to those whose choices he rejects as "clowns" and "idiots" and putting on Ignore anybody who requests him to take his stand where he should do and turning off his snow machine.

Before he can do that, and he's a time-waster if he doesn't, he needs to choose between the two definitions of his divinity Nature before he can proceed with even minimal intellectual respectability. Only confusion can possibly result if he goes in and out of each of the definitions of Nature, his own God which evolution theory is working to erect, ghastly though it is, as it suits each case he wants to make, either without him being aware he is doing so , in which case he is stupid, or, if he is aware, hoping that his audience is too stupid to notice, in which case he underestimates A2K. Grossly.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

Explain the theory of evolution by interpreting data from fossil records, similarities in anatomy and physiology, or DNA studies that are relevant to the theory of evolution.

Sounds great in the abstract fm. How is it done in actual classrooms by people who are not good enough to be higher up the salary scales than teachers are?

Quote:

The above section (in the Biology standard of Pa's SAS (Standards Aligned System), is covered only after students are presented the entire concept of genetics, DNA/RNA, and chromosomal structure and mutation.

I sincerely hope that I am not the only one with reservations about the veracity of that glop.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

only after students are presented the entire concept of genetics, DNA/RNA, and chromosomal structure and mutation.

Didnt we have a discussion on the merits of DNA simply being a library and whether it actually contributes to mutation ?

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@Ionus,

Yes we did. However, the term of the disagreement wasnt a point that DNA "contributes to evolution" but that as someone said"Its responsible for everything".

I believe that DNA is presented as the storehouse and as a "bar code" tasked with keeping a cell similar to its parent cell by its "bookkeeping" duties during and after cell division.
Biology is still working out the details of what DNA actually does both within the cellular genome and in its epigenetic forms. Thats kind of beyond what the proficiency standards are for.
In PA we feel that "proficiency" is an understanding that is slightly less than actual competency in a science. We ask the kids to walk before they engage in whether they should be sprinters or long distance runners.

Mostly we try to prepare kids for further education either in a trade or into higher ed pursuits.
ALthough, as an example, several gene groups are studied with their effects on the cells and tissues in the structures in which the genes express themselves.

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@farmerman,

Interestingly, this article from this mornings science section of the NYTimes, is about as concise a summary of what the Venter team did in creating tthat "artificial cell". Note the several other structures and reactants in a simple cell, all made possible by an unimaginably long TIME PERIOD.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/science/01angi.html?th&emc=th

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