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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 06:25 am
@farmerman,
It's highly likely that those on your side of the aisle, back in the 70's, also, as you do now, refused to discuss whether secular evolution was a dangerous subject and thus unfit for schoolchildren preferring instead, as you also do, to sail it on the science ship as if those opposing the teaching of the subject were also opposed to the two times table.

The whole point of these debates fm, which sadly you seem to, even after 6 years at it, either fail to understand or are leading A2K ers with lies of omission, is that evolution theory, unlike most of the rest of science, has dangers associated with it which you refuse to contemplate.

On the other side of the aisle, the history of the time that has passed since the long gone days to which you so casually refer, has provided evidence that the increasing secularisation of society has indeed shown a tendency, at the least, to point to the dangers involved.

Your disengenous post is both ignorant and insulting to these threads.

It is a possibilty that the USSC "refused to hear the whole mess" for the very good reason that they knew that to do so would require them to define evolution theory as true science. I hardly think the court would feel happy to be refusing on the grounds of there being a mess. It is messes they are there to deal with surely?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 06:46 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Its interesting to see that subsequent cases always close the door a little bit more on the Creationist roadway. Its not so much a "making of the law" but more like a "fine sanding of what the Constitution states"
I think that statement is accurate enough for me to agree with, as I define the making of the law to involve further efforts at "fine sanding".
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 07:05 am
UK UPDATE
Quote:
Creationism v evolution: Showdown at the Ulster Museum
(By Lesley-Anne Henry, Belfast Telegraph, 27 May 2010)

Free Presbyterian minister Reverend David McIlveen believes the Earth was created just 6,000 years ago by God, just like it says in the Bible. Dr Chris Hunt, a lecturer in palaeoecology at Queen’s University, teaches evolutionary theory and says science demonstrates that the world is millions of years old.

Yesterday the creationism v evolution debate was given another hearing when it was revealed our Culture Minister Nelson McCausland wrote to the trustees of National Museums Northern Ireland suggesting that alternative views on the origins of the universe should be displayed.

This prompted the Belfast Telegraph to bring representatives of the two disparate views together for a tour of the natural history section of the newly refurbished Ulster Museum.

One of the central attractions in the museum is a replica of a majestic giant Irish deer, which walked the earth about 80,000 years ago. The magnificent animal caught the eye of both the Reverend and the academic.

But the dating of the exhibit creates a problem for Rev McIlveen’s view of history. He explained: “I believe that the world is probably around about 6,000 years old and during that time there was the Great Flood which, in my opinion, cleared or wiped out the dinosaurs which were in existence at that time.”

But Dr Hunt, a church-going Christian, had his own views on Bible teaching. “I actually see the creation of the world in the Bible as a parable of what really happened for those who weren’t able to understand in more depth all that time ago.”

As he strolled through the minerals, rocks and fossils section, Rev McIlveen expressed his support for Mr McCausland’s view. He even went a step further and called for a Bible to be exhibited alongside the reference books in the museum. “To present the evolutionist view as fact, I think is wrong,” he said. Coming across a display of piece of Moon rock, Rev McIlveen said: “I have no reason to doubt this isn’t a piece of the Moon, but at the same time, if I was cynical, I would ask where’s the proof? It just looks like a piece of coal that has been burnt. I could have come back from Sinai with something and said it was from Jupiter.

“My cynicism deepens. What I am looking at and listening to is only an opinion and nothing more.” As they took their arguments to another level in the natural history section it was obvious that Dr Hunt was becoming increasingly frustrated.

And as Rev McIlveen spoke about apples falling from the sky he looked totally baffled.

An invitation to Rev McIlveen to attend one of his lectures at Queen’s was side-stepped with a counter-offer for the scientist to join the congregation at his Sandown Church.

Dr Hunt concluded: “The museum records a particular viewpoint which is based on a very great deal of discovered evidence and until that evidence is properly refuted and in detail then I don’t think creationists have a scientific leg to stand on.

“So-called creation science is wishful thinking. It’s very sad. I feel very sorry for the people who peddle it and I think they have been very badly misguided by the ‘creation scientists’.

“This is a museum which records Ulster’s past. The Bible only arrived in Ireland 2,000 years ago. The giant Irish deer was here 11,000 years ago. There could well be a very nice exhibit about Christianity and I would be very glad to see it, but at the moment evolution is the only real show in town.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 01:43 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
Its interesting to see that subsequent cases always close the door a little bit more on the Creationist roadway.


Unfortunately Io the thread concerns the evolution roadway to mass atheism and, as far as I'm aware, nobody has mentioned the Creationist roadway apart from these atheists who have a touching belief that saying things about the latter somehow answers the challenges to the former. Which, of course, it doesn't.

Your agreement provides succour to fm about whom you have previously said some rather forthright things. You might remember that when fm thought you and I were in agreement he suggested that we "get a room." And it seems he was rather premature in his conclusion as well.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 02:12 pm
@wandeljw,
The Belfast Telegraph is owned by Independent News & Media plc which has an entry in Wiki--

Quote:
Independent News & Media plc (INM) (LSE: INM, ISEQ: IPD) is a media organisation based in Dublin, Ireland, with interests in 22 countries on 4 continents worldwide. The company owns over 200 print titles, more than 130 radio stations, over 100 commercial websites and many billboard locations, and is a leading press player in five countries. The INM group of companies has been dominated by Tony O'Reilly, CEO until early 2009, and his family (one of his sons, formerly COO, became CEO in early 2009, and two others were non-executive directors for many years), since 1973.


The Voice of the People.

The first paragraph was particularly amusing. I think imparting important information to the public does seem, in my experience at least, to create little frissons of joy in certain ladies.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 02:21 pm
@spendius,
And like the Cox Organistion INMplc does seem to go for "in house" promotions unlike the Roman Catholic Church which would rather go out of business than participate in such things.

I suppose the choice rather comes down to whether one is a toff or not or thinks of oneself as one. Such a view, it goes without saying, is contra-evolution in the most fundamental manner.

Which is confusing don't you think wande. When "who you know" gets on top the end is nigh.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 04:29 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
You might remember that when fm thought you and I were in agreement he suggested that we "get a room." And it seems he was rather premature in his conclusion as well.
Actually I am very worried his next suggestion will be for me and him to get a room ..... Shocked Shocked Shocked
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 05:08 pm
@Ionus,
That's the first time I've seen that triple emo have real integrity. It is usually a mere affectation.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 08:21 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
“I have no reason to doubt this isn’t a piece of the Moon, but at the same time, if I was cynical, I would ask where’s the proof? It just looks like a piece of coal that has been burnt. I could have come back from Sinai with something and said it was from Jupiter
When we realize that the Rev has only got a criminal defense lawyers debate point going for him, we can see what his fear is. His is a movement that is built upon feeding despair, not selling a loving religion. As the "Celtic Tiger" began to slump into the economic dumper again, people began to lose hope and have settled on a despair that results from job loss and job disappearance,.Theyve seen the proud hopes of a high tech future get swallowed up by offshore places that dont give a **** for anything but bottom lines.
Those who live in this despair live a life of the easily manipulated by the demagogues of the cloth and collar.
Those in despair, like the US southern Evangelicals, love promises of Utopian fantasies, whther here on earth or based upon the second coming of THE MAN.
They need a warm embracing community that can adequatley replace the financial one. They need a new meaning, a purpose in theior lives that supplants a formerly much- needed skill.
There are places in Belfast, Cork, or Dublin that look just like our own US cities of Detroit where any short drive to the city fills you with deja vu of a MAd MAx movie .
Many nations besides the US have grdually turned their backs on the working classes, if it aint NAFTA, its the EU , each with its own brand of perniciousness. Most of us just stand by and watch this like an Imax show depicting the world as it festers huge masses of underclasses.
What was once a base of trained talent in architecture, finance,engineering and many others, can now easily be plopped on some software and sent overseas where everyone will work for one third of what the "Tigers" were paid (US wrokers also)
Even with the availability of universal healths care (a "benefit" that the US has only accepted with great deals of kicking and screaming while in delivery) The Irish and Northern Irish have seen the creation of an EU oligarchy (we in the US are miles ahead of you all in this)Its a fact that the top 1percent of EU dwellers and US and CAnadians have more wealth than the lower 90% combined.
If you like democracy, this should fill you all with dread.
Those who turn to Christ in the recent years have done so basedon tales of heartbreaking events. These tales include severe finacial difficulties, drugs, physical abuse , alcoholism , and alienation so profound that suicide is often looked at as a viable solution to the day-to-day.
FActs and dispassionate inquiry, research and evidence , all unfiltered through a leans of some kind of comfort and ideology that repeats "there there, everything will be al right" has left many all alone and fearing really real reality. Theyve been betrayed by the obsenities of corporations and their profits and the license to do whatever they will to keep the cycle of profit sustainable.
SO they take leave of the real world and accept the radical preachers who promise bullshit and deliver it so well that they are able to cast doubt on the world of the tangible and proof based, because the priests deliver hope from this world of despair .
People who dont buy this biblical happy talk, are also scared, theyre scared that well all be plunged back to a time that actual fear of reality and disdain of the real world summed up most Christian worship and daily life.
However, the theology of despair (remember despair?) states that this world aint worth a pinch of flat Guiness. reverend McIlveen loves the advance of environmental cataclysms, he wants the helix of expanding war in the Mid East. He loves the poverty and blight that "Offshoring" has wrought. HE loves the encouraging signs that we are squarely in the middle of ARmageddon and the end is just up the road a bit. He wants all his followers to believe that ONLY theChristians, commited to his way of thinking will be saved by a "RAPTURE" . This is really a spritual form of Darwinism says Jerry Coyne. Those worth saving now yearn for painful revenge against those who refuse to submit to the theology of despair (Again). Those non-believers are called "atheists" materialists" , in some cases they are called "nominal Christians" pointy heads, gays , L-I-B-E-R-A-L-S , and , lately "Ragheads " ( a special brand of despair response based upon Glenn Beckian Musliphobia)

Reverand McIlheen fits in with his bretheren of other times and nations. NAmes like Wilberforce, Bryant, Dobson and PAt Robertson would love him and embrace this guy as someone who would feel at home in their world, should it come to pass. THis world will be populated only with the religious Fascisti
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 05:03 am
@farmerman,
I think I'll leave that to the men in white coats.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 10:17 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

UK UPDATE
Quote:
Creationism v evolution: Showdown at the Ulster Museum
(By Lesley-Anne Henry, Belfast Telegraph, 27 May 2010)

Coming across a display of piece of Moon rock, Rev McIlveen said: “I have no reason to doubt this isn’t a piece of the Moon, but at the same time, if I was cynical, I would ask where’s the proof? It just looks like a piece of coal that has been burnt. I could have come back from Sinai with something and said it was from Jupiter.


What the Rev expresses here as "cynicism" is actually a much deeper distrust (or denial) of cultural knowledge.

In theory, every single human being would have to prove to themselves through direct experimentation and analysis the validity of every piece of knowledge ever presented to them in order to have "proof". But in practice this type of objection is problematic; humanity has learned too much over the eons for any single individual to reconstruct directly. Instead there has to be some level of trust associated with the great body of information available to humanity.

What's really surprising is that the Rev would be cynical about so much empirical data, but then accept the Bible without any supporting evidence whatsoever. So the basic objection which he calls "Cynicism" turns out to be completely hypocritical in it's inconsistency.

The basis of his argument breaks down into irrational behavior.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 10:33 am
It's propaganda, Roswell, and propaganda doesn't have to deal in rational or logical explanations. The smartest move on the part of religious demagogues in the last century has been to attempt to shift the burden of proof from their silly superstitions to the scientific explanations of phenomena. The religiously motivated already accept their holy writ as revealed truth, so they leap at the opportunity to say: "Oh yeah, prove it" to anyone offering a scientific explanation for the way the world is.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 11:40 am
UK UPDATE
This news item actually precedes the story I posted yesterday and is probably the backdrop:
Quote:
Northern Ireland minister calls on Ulster Museum to promote creationism
(Henry McDonald, The Guardian, 26 May 2010)

Northern Ireland's born-again Christian culture minister has called on the Ulster Museum to put on exhibits reflecting the view that the world was made by God only several thousand years ago.

Nelson McCausland, who believes that Ulster Protestants are one of the lost tribes of Israel, has written to the museum's board of trustees urging them to reflect creationist and intelligent design theories of the universe's origins.

The Democratic Unionist minister said the inclusion of anti-Darwinian theories in the museum was "a human rights issue".

McCausland defended a letter he wrote to the trustees calling for anti-evolution exhibitions at the museum. He claimed that around one third of Northern Ireland's population believed either in intelligent design or the creationist view that the universe was created about 6,000 years ago.

"I have had more letters from the public on this issue than any other issue," he said.

The minister said he wrote a "very balanced letter" to the museum because he wanted to "reflect the views of all the people in Northern Ireland in all its richness and diversity".

Earlier in his letter to the museum's trustees McCausland said he had "a common desire to ensure that museums are reflective of the views, beliefs and cultural traditions that make up society in Northern Ireland".

His call was condemned by the evolutionary biologist Professor Richard Dawkins, who said: "If the museum was to go down that road then perhaps they should bring in the stork theory of where babies come from. Or perhaps the museum should introduce the flat earth theory."

Dawkins said it was irrelevant if a large number of people in Northern Ireland refused to believe in evolution. "Scientific evidence can't be democratically decided," Dawkins said.

McCausland's party colleague and North Antrim assembly member Mervyn Storey has been at the forefront of a campaign to force museums in Northern Ireland to promote anti-Darwinian theories.

Storey, who has chaired the Northern Ireland assembly's education committee, has denied that man descended from apes. He believes in the theory that the world was created several thousand years ago, even though the most famous tourist attraction in his own constituency " the Giant's Causeway on the North Antrim coast " is according to all the geological evidence millions of years old.

Last year Storey raised objections to notices at the Giant's Causeway informing the public that the unique rock formation was about 550m years old. Storey believes in the literal truth of the Bible and that the earth was created only several thousand years before Christ's birth.

This latest row over Darwin versus creationism in Northern Ireland comes at a delicate time for the Ulster Museum. Earlier this month it was shortlisted for the UK's largest single arts prize. The Art Fund Prize annually awards £100,000 to a museum or gallery for a project completed in the last year.

The belief that the Earth was divinely created in 4004 BC originates with the writings of another Ulster-based Protestant, Archbishop of Armagh James Ussher, in 1654. Ussher calculated the date based on textual clues in the Old Testament, even settling on a date and time for the moment of creation: in the early hours of 23 October.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 02:32 pm
@wandeljw,
Wandel's source wrote:
Nelson McCausland, who believes that Ulster Protestants are one of the lost tribes of Israel . . .


Jesus . . . this clown is so deep in fantasy land it is truly incredible. I genuinely find it hard to believe that this joker himself believes that--it has to be a scam he's running on the credulous.

Ireland's Protestant population by and large came from the "plantations" which began in Elizabeth's reign, and were continued under James, Charles and even the Commonwealth. (Cromwell was so virulently anti-Catholic that he constantly wrote back to England of the wonderful land available to god-fearing Protestants--the then occupancy of poor Irish Catholic crofters was not an issue in his mind.) It's so obvious, too. The first major plantation was from the "deserving poor" of London, and they were planted in Derry, which the English have called Londonderry ever since.

I am constantly flabbergasted at the stupidity which is so easily foisted onto the gullible.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 03:30 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
The religiously motivated already accept their holy writ as revealed truth, so they leap at the opportunity to say: "Oh yeah, prove it" to anyone offering a scientific explanation for the way the world is.


But that proceeds on the assumption that people want a scientific explanation for the way the world is. And that it is a good thing to which the challenge to "prove it" is always ducked.

It probably also proceeds on the assumption that there are no scientific explanations for the way the world is that Setanta might find awkward. He might be ignorant of those scientific explanations for the way the world is which would be. He's only talking about the scientific explanations for the way the world is that he's comfortable with.

The problem Setanta has, which is shared by the others on his side, is that he can't see that this specific issue cannot be connected to the rest of science which is acceptable to everybody including the fundies.

ros is guilty of the same error by trying to conflate trust in the great body of information with trust in this one specific area. And it's an area that has nothing to do with the world of things but with hearts and minds.

It's an error they have to make whether they know it or not. Their position is untenable if they don't. What has the science they are talking about got to do with hearts and minds? If nothing then man truly is a machine as La Mettrie said. So we can discuss atheism or religion mechanically in that case. And there's a good chance religion would prove superior viewed mechanically.

0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 06:26 am
BOOK REVIEW
Quote:
SCIENCE VS. RELIGION
What Scientists Really Think
By Elaine Howard Ecklund
Oxford Univ. 228 pp. $27.95

(Reviwed by Josh Rosenau, The Washington Post, May 30, 2010)

Americans are almost evenly divided between those who feel science conflicts with religion and those who don't. Both sides have scientific backers. Biologist Richard Dawkins rallies atheists by arguing that science renders religious faith unnecessary and irrational. Geneticist Francis S. Collins (before becoming NIH director) organized evangelical scientists to offer a vision of science and faith reinforcing each other.

Rice University sociologist Elaine Ecklund offers a fresh perspective on this debate in "Science vs. Religion." Rather than offering another polemic, she builds on a detailed survey of almost 1,700 scientists at elite American research universities -- the most comprehensive such study to date. These surveys and 275 lengthy follow-up interviews reveal that scientists often practice a closeted faith. They worry how their peers would react to learning about their religious views.

Fully half of these top scientists are religious. Only five of the 275 interviewees actively oppose religion. Even among the third who are atheists, many consider themselves "spiritual." One describes this spiritual atheism as being rooted in "wonder about the complexity and the majesty of existence," a sentiment many nonscientists -- religious or not -- would recognize. By not engaging with religion more fully and publicly, "the academy is really doing itself a big disservice," worries one scientist. As shown by conflicts over everything from evolution to stem cells to climate policy, breakdowns in communication between scientists and religious communities cause real problems, especially for scientists trying to educate increasingly religious college students.

Religious groups -- creationist movements in particular -- are not without blame here. Creationist attacks on evolution "have polarized the public opinion such that you're either religious or you're a scientist!" a devout physicist complains. Indeed, the National Science Board recently spiked a report on American knowledge about evolution, claiming that it was too difficult to tell the difference between religious objections to evolution and questions raised about the state of the science.

Only through a genuine dialogue between scientists and the broader public can these divisions be bridged. To her credit, Ecklund avoids editorializing even while encouraging such dialogue. She gives voice to scientists, relaying and synthesizing their experience. Though "Science vs. Religion" is aimed at scientists, her myth-busting and her thoughtful advice can also benefit nonscientists. For Ecklund, the bottom line is recognizing and tolerating religious diversity, honestly discussing science's scope and limits, and openly exploring the disputed borders between scientific skepticism and religious faith.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 06:58 am
@wandeljw,
That's about what I would have figured. Scientists are no different than anybody else. Thing is, the ones that believe in a god do not allow it to detract from their work. I can't resent such a person for perceiving his world differently, even when I disagree with his conclusions.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2010 05:58 am
AUSTRALIA UPDATE
Quote:
Creationism to be taught in Queensland classrooms
(By Carly Hennessy, The Sunday Mail, May 30, 2010)

Creationists dismiss the science of evolution, instead believing that living things are best explained by an intelligent being or God, rather than an undirected process such as natural selection.

The issue of creationism being taught in schools has caused huge controversy in the US, where some fundamentalist religious schools teach it as a science subject instead of Darwin's theory of evolution.

In Queensland schools, creationism will be offered for discussion in the subject of ancient history, under the topic of "controversies".

Don't miss The Courier-Mail on Tuesday for the 2010 High School Report, an eight-page liftout containing Year 12 results, including OPs, from every school across the state.

Teachers are still formulating a response to the draft national curriculum, scheduled to be introduced next year.

Queensland History Teachers' Association head Kay Bishop said the curriculum asked students to develop their historical skills in an "investigation of a controversial issue" such as "human origins (eg, Darwin's theory of evolution and its critics").

"It's opening up opportunities for debate and discussion, not to push a particular view," Ms Bishop said. Classroom debate about issues encouraged critical thinking " an important tool, she said.

Associated Christian Schools executive officer Lynne Doneley welcomed the draft curriculum, saying it cemented the position of a faith-based approach to teaching.

"We talk to students from a faith science basis, but we're not biased in the delivery of curriculum," Mrs Doneley said. "We say, 'This is where we're coming from' but allow students to make up their own minds."

But Griffith University humanities lecturer Paul Williams said it was important to be cautious about such content.

"It's important that education authorities are vigilant that this is not a blank cheque to push theological barrows," Mr Williams said.

"I would be loath to see it taught as theory.

"It's up there with the world being occupied by aliens since Roswell."

Ms Bishop said there were bigger problems with the national curriculum.

History teachers are planning to object to repetitive subject matter, such as World War I being a major part of the Year 10 course and repeated in Year 11.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2010 07:23 am
@wandeljw,
Thats my State !!! Go the mighty Maroons !!

Debating the subject will do more to destroy Creationism as a science than anything else could.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2010 07:34 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Debating the subject will do more to destroy Creationism as a science than anything else could.
Its been our experience that such is not the case. Remember, the Creationists only have ONE issue to bring to the table. The balanced science curriculum and its underpinnings require more knowledge in several sister disciplines that the Creationists and the IDjits dont have to worry about. Consequently, the Creationists tend to be much better at the art of debate and public presentations. They only polish their monkey for that one arena.
0 Replies
 
 

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