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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 04:33 am
@farmerman,
No explanations needed. It's good to have set back with us.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:24 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
You are confusing the study of the Bible as a document of antiquity versus, the acceptance of whats written therein as "science".


Why fm, effemm I used to call him when he called me names, wrote that Io is due to him either not understanding my post about the Ark myth or him not reading it.

In that post I demonstrated that the Ark idea is so utterly ludicrous logistically that it can only be meant as a parable and that the parable not only has a scientific truth buried in it but a Darwinian one.

What he really means is that he can't read properly and that he needs the ridiculous literal interpretation in order to have a sitting duck to aim at and to provide him with an excuse to show off his superficial knowledge of the technical aspects of seafaring to those of us who are unfamiliar with the activity and not interested in it enough to google up the details.

That the Ark would be fatuously impractical for a thousand reasons in real time and space doesn't stop him from looking for some minor technical detail to prove what was obvious in the first place for far more telling reasons and thus his students are left with the impression that if only the hogging and sagging had been avoided the fatuity was a possibility and thus their education is stunted unless education is deemed to be passing on to them fm's limited knowledge and master's degrees are awarded to those who regurgitate it for him to mark in exams and the power kick he gets from giving an A+ to those who do it best rewards him in turn and stamps notions of his excellence even deeper into his noggin by the process Pavlov demonstrated.



Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:31 am
The French frigates were better sailors than the English frigates, and the complaint about keeping the seas of the Channel is a uniquely blockading view. The Channel Fleet kept station in all weathers, often until the ships' bottoms were so foul that when the French did use an offshore gale to break out of the blockade, the blockading forces simply couldn't catch them. Time and again, the Royal Navy went after the French and lost them. Nelson made his greatest public fame (he already had professional respect) for his part in the great defeat of the Spanish off Cape St. Vincent (the southern end of Portugal) on February 14, 1797. The commander of the Med Fleet, John Jarvis, was made Earl St. Vincent for the event, and Nelson's fame arose from boarding and taking a more powerful ship, and then crossing the decks of the ship to board and take an even more powerful ship.

But one has to be careful of the prejudice which the English often bring to their own accounts. Jarvis and his fleet were pursuing the French who had run out of Toulon after a terrible storm and with an offshore breeze. They encountered and badly defeated the Spanish, because the French had gotten clean away. If you read the phony claims the English made about the American Navy in what they called the American War (and which we call the War of 1812), you would quickly get a sense of how little truth there usually was in their comments. If the French frigates lacked an Orlop, it would be a simple matter to install one. They built beautiful ships, and Humphreys and other American ship designers did not miss the point, they copied French designs, and, of course, Humphreys added the diagonal scantlings (a scantling is any structural support member).

Nelson's maternal uncle, Captain Maurice Suckling, was on half pay when yet another "Spanish Armament" was decreed in 1770, due to a dispute over Falkland's Islands. Suckling was given Raisonable, 64, a fourth rate built and commissioned by the French in the late 1730s, and captured in the 1750s during the Seven Years War. Nelson was mustered in on the roster of Raisonable in January 1771, at the age of 12. Raisonable was the commodore's flag in 1809 when the Royal Navy began its campaign to take Mauritius away from the French, more than 70 years after it had first been commissioned. The commodore's squadron included four frigates which had been taken from the French, and they would take five more from them in the course of the campaign. Even if the Royal Navy had not thought highly of the French frigates (and everything i've read suggests that at least the Post Captains wanted them), the necessities imposed by blockading the whole of Europe meant that they were obliged to use any serviceable ship they could capture from the French and the Spanish. At one point, Nelson had his flag in San Jose, one of the ships he captured in 1797 at Cape St. Vincent.

********************************************

As i've said, the whole Ark story is hilarious. But when viewed seriously, it is obvious that it was written by a person or persons with no knowledge of ships, ship building and keeping the sea in any kind of weather, never mind the conditions which would have obtained in a globe girdling ocean. It makes the bible thumpers look truly pathetic that they try to come up with so much bullshit in the attempt to prop up the Ark story. Perhaps you will recall the many times i rubbed the nose of the member "real life" in the hilarious stupidity of the flood story, at which point he would fall back on divine, supernatural intervention. That of course begs the question of why an ark in the first place.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:34 am
@spendius,
Gomer has a strange habit of storming off in a huff, the punishment being us not able to bask in his reflected glory and knowledge. It seems to demand an opinion of him at least equal to his own opinion of himself and this puzzles me. Then when no-one runs after him begging his return for all humanity's sake, he returns anyway as if nothing had happened. The man has a cast iron ego or is a simpleton.
Quote:
What he really means is that he can't read properly and that he needs the ridiculous literal interpretation in order to have a sitting duck to aim at and to provide him with an excuse to show off his superficial knowledge of the technical aspects of seafaring to those of us who are unfamiliar with the activity and not interested in it enough to google up the details.
Exactly.
wandeljw
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 09:06 am
This week in UK's Guardian, Professors Steve Fuller and Michael Ruse debated the question: Is Intelligent Design Bad Theology?

Quote:
Steve Fuller:
Intelligent design theory (ID), the latest version of scientific creationism to challenge the Darwinian orthodoxy in biology, is in the unenviable position of being damned as both bad science and bad theology. However, if those charges are true, then the basis of our belief in both science and God may be irrational. At the very least, ID suggests that belief in the two may be interdependent. I agree with ID on this point, which provides the main thesis of my latest book, a defence of science as an "art of living".
The most basic formulation of ID is that biology is divine technology. In other words, God is no less " and possibly no more " than an infinitely better version of the ideal Homo sapiens, whose distinctive species calling card is art, science and technology. Thus, when ID supporters claim that a cell is as intelligently designed as a mousetrap, they mean it literally. The difference between God and us is simply that God is the one being in whom all of our virtues are concentrated perfectly, whereas for our own part those virtues are distributed imperfectly amongst many individuals.
It is easy to imagine how this way of putting our relationship with God would result in many academic disputes " and it has. But the basic point that remains radical to this day is that, in important ways, the divine and the human are comparable. Notwithstanding Adam's fall, we are still created "in the image and likeness of God". From this biblical claim it follows that we might be capable of deploying the powers that distinguish us from the other animals to come closer to God. Such is the theological template on which the secular idea of progress was forged during the scientific revolution.
This point is of more than historical interest because the scientific projects that have most impressed humanity presuppose what the philosopher Thomas Nagel has called "the view from nowhere", aka "the mind of God". I mean to include here not only the achievements of Newton and Einstein, which allow us to comprehend a universe only a tiny fraction of which we will ever experience directly, but also Charles Darwin's conceptualisation of natural history long before humans first walked the earth. Yet, from a strictly evolutionary standpoint, it is by no means clear what adaptive advantage any of this knowledge has provided us as a species whose members still struggle on earth to survive roughly 75 years.
On the contrary, the second world war " if the first had not already " demonstrated the levels of global risk that we have been willing to tolerate in the pursuit of science and technology. And that faith remains unabated. Nowadays what passes for "anti-science", be it New Age movements or ID itself, mostly reflects distrust in established scientific authorities. It is no more anti-science than the original Protestant reformers were atheists. If anything, these developments " which I have dubbed "Protscience" " speak to the increasing desire of people to take science into their own hands in the 20th and 21st centuries, as they did religion in the 16th and 17th centuries. In this context, the internet today functions very much as the printing press did five centuries ago.
Insofar as we continue to put aside our misgivings that science might destroy us and the planet " that we pursue nuclear energy despite the atom bomb, that we pursue genetics despite the Holocaust, that we pursue social science despite brainwashing and surveillance " we are trading on a residual sense of our closeness to God. Indeed, the Christian doctrine of providence, which was designed to instil perseverance in the face of adversity, is the model for this curious, and some would say, blind faith in science. Certainly such a view makes more sense if God is thought to reveal his handiwork in nature, as ID supporters presume, than if the deity is inscrutable or non-existent, as ID opponents normally do.
In this context, Charles Darwin himself provides an instructive lesson. He began as an ID supporter but fell from the fold when he could not square the mass extinctions, monstrous events and design flaws so evident in nature with a super-smart, super-good, super-powerful deity that might serve as a beacon for human progress. As this awareness set in, Darwin gradually became more pessimistic about science's capacity to ameliorate the human condition. In every science-led policy initiative of his day " not only eugenics and vivisection but even publicity about contraception " Darwin always took a cautious line, doubting the policy's ultimate efficacy and warning about the dangers of "fixed ideas", whether based on science or religion (or both).
Of course, Darwin may be right about all this, but science would not have taken the shape or acquired the significance it has if we agreed with him.

Michael Ruse:
At the heart of Steve Fuller's defence of intelligent design theory (ID) is a false analogy. He compares the struggles of the ID supporters to the travails of the Protestant Reformers. Just as they stood against the established Catholic church, so the ID supporters stand against establishment science, specifically Darwinian evolutionary theory. Where this comparison breaks down is that the Protestants were no less Christians than the Catholics. It was rather that they differed over the right way to get to heaven. For the Protestants it was justification through faith, believing in the Lord, whereas for Catholics, it was good works. Given that Saint Augustine, some thousand years before, had labeled the Catholic position the heresy of Pelagianism, the reformers had a good point.
In the ID case, whatever its supporters may say publicly for political purposes " in the USA thanks to the First Amendment you cannot teach religion in state-funded schools " the intention is to bring God into the causal process. ID claims that there are some phenomena (like the bacterial flagellum and the blood-clotting cascade) are so "irreducibly complex," that to explain them we must invoke an "intelligent designer." As they admit among themselves " the philosopher-mathematician William Dembski is quite clear on this " the designer is none other than our old friend the God of Christianity. The logos of the early chapters of the Gospel of Saint John, as Dembski confidently states.
The trouble for the Fuller analogy is that science simply does not allow God as a causal factor. It is not a question of being an atheist or not. In the nineteenth century, even those who thought that there could be no natural explanation of organic origins realized that the appeal to divine intervention takes one out of science. In the words of the English historian and philosopher of science, William Whewell " an ordained Anglican who so disliked evolutionary speculations that, when he was master of Trinity College, Cambridge, he would not allow a copy of the Origin of Species in the college library " when it comes to science on origins: "The mystery of creation is not within the range of her legitimate territory; she says nothing, but she points upwards."
In the 20th century, two of the most important Darwinian biologists " Ronald Fisher in England and the Russian-born Theodosius Dobzhansky in America " were deeply committed Christians. But they would never, ever have introduced God into their work. Like all scientists, they were "methodological atheists." You don't have to be at one with Richard Dawkins on the God question to do evolutionary biology. ID is not science and, like its predecessor, Scientific Creationism, it only pretends to be science to do a political and legal end-run around the US Constitution.
Contrary to Fuller, although ID is not bad science " it is not science at all " its intent is deeply corrosive of real science. As Thomas Kuhn pointed out repeatedly, when scientists cannot find solutions, they don't blame the world. They blame themselves. You don't give up in the face of disappointments. You try again. Imagine if Watson and Crick had thrown in the towel when their first model of the DNA molecule proved fallacious. The very essence of ID is admitting defeat and invoking inexplicable miracles. The bacterial flagellum is complex. Turn to God! The blood clotting cascade is long and involved. Turn to God! That is simply not the way to do science. And as it happens, both the flagellum and the cascade have revealed their very natural, law-bound mysteries to regular scientists who keep plugging away and wouldn't take "no" for an answer.
ID is theology " very bad theology. As soon as you bring God into the world on a daily creative basis, then the theodicy problem " the problem of evil " rears its ugly head. If God works away miraculously to do the very complex, presumably in the name of goodness, then why on earth does God not occasionally get involved miraculously to prevent the very simple with horrendous consequences? Some very, very minor genetic changes have truly dreadful effects, causing people life-long pain and despair. If God thought it worth His time to make the blood clot, then why was it not worth His time to prevent Huntingdon's Chorea?
Keep God out of the day-to-day functioning of things. If, like the archbishop of Canterbury, you absolutely must have God do law-breaking miracles " apparently he would give up and become a Quaker if the tomb had not been empty on the third day " then at least restrict His activities to the cause of our salvation.
ID is the most recent manifestation of a particular form of 19th-century, American, Protestant, evangelical thinking. We don't want it in America and you don't want it in Britain either. Take it from Michael Ruse, a Brit living in America, that you shouldn't listen to Steve Fuller, an American living in Britain.
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 09:59 am
@Ionus,
I never storm off in a huff from you Anus (spendi, I just ignore because his efforts are like yesterdays pancakes).
You, on the other hand, suffer from post service attitudinal syndrome. Your not used to being doubted , let alone laughed at for your pale attempts at reasoning.
You try to slice anothers posts and assert that there is some meaning in that persons post that was neither stated nor implied.
Thats poor debating skill and it goes nicely with your poor comprehension skills.

I wonder what the other Australians think about your efforts? Since most of your efforts are pretty much fact and evidence free. You cant even analyze a simple two phrase declarative statementwithout fuckin it up.

I wonder if I need to add Miracle Gro to your root watering today?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 10:04 am
@wandeljw,
Michael Ruse was the KEY witness in the McLean v ARKANSAS case in 1981. Hes seen all the arguments and has, diced them up nicely. Hes getting ready to retire .
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 10:50 am
@farmerman,
Heres some info from the Constitution hull qs on re3cord at the DCharlestown Naval Yard, where the rehab and restoration of Ironsides took place for her bicentennial
Quote:
As history can attest, Constitution represents a successful design. Joshua Humphreys, the designer of the Navy's first six frigates, that included Constitution, had two criteria to satisfy, to out gun the next rate ship and to out-sail adversaries. The solution required a never-before-built design.

The successful integration of the two design criteria demanded an innovated technical solution to the problems of strength of materials and hull design. Humphreys understood that optimization of the two criteria became mutually exclusive when building a hull. The fine entry and run required for sailing qualities and the weight of a heavy armament causes particular problems for wooden hull sailing ships. Combining the weight of the guns and the buoyancy curve of a fast sailing hull results in a force that distorts the hull. The distortion known as "hog" is the bending along the length of the keel. It is the same curve that resembles the curve of a hog's back. With minimal buoyancy, the ends of the ship tend to drop down under the weight loads of the guns, while the center midbody, being more buoyant, rises upward. Humphreys recognized the need to stiffen the hull to resist the forces causing hogging.

From historical research, five components were identified to have been part of Constitution's original construction.

Thick Strakes, Restored using laminated white oak planking on gun deck and lower deck. There are two paired runs, (fore and aft), (port and starboard), of deck planking: One pair running along side of the hatches, the other pair running midway between the waterways and hatch strakes. The thick strakes are thicker by two inches, (five and one-half inches total) than the standard deck planking and are bolted and joggled into each other, and joggled over and into the deck beams below by two inches. These deck strakes add longitudinal strength to the hull.
Standard Knees, Restored at the ends of the ship, both at the bow and stern, are long laminated white oak knees fayed at the end of each pair of thick strakes on lower deck. These joggle over two deck beams and are well bolted to the bow and stem with one and one eighth inch bolts. These knees unite the deck thick strakes to the hull.

Two additional laminated white oak standard knees restored on the centerline, one reaching from the stem to the foremast and the other from the transom to the mizzen mast, joggled over and into each deck beam and well bolted. These additional two knees also strengthen the hull at ends of the ship.

Midship Knees, Restored on lower deck, are laminated white oak knees made as a single composite of the original hanging and standard knee pairs. The knees fay over each beam the diagonal riders come under with the others placed amidships for a total of twelve on each side. The knees are sided thirteen inches, the body reaches the upper edge of gun deck clamp, the arm is six feet long. The knees are bolted with eight bolts each one and one fourth inch diameter. These twelve knees carry the weight of the overhead gun deck cannon distributing the loads to lower deck.
Stanchions, Made of turned white oak copied from the centerline stanchions. On lower deck, two additional tiers were restored, each under an overhead gun deck beam at the midship thick strakes. These stanchions work in conjunction with the midship knees to form a structural unit supporting the overhead cannon.
Diagonal Riders. Made of laminated white oak, 12 x 24 inches in cross section and approximately 34 feet long. Restored in the hold, a total of twelve diagonals, six per side, three sweeping forward, three sweeping aft, with the two midbody ones butted against each other at the keelson. The diagonals are spaced a distance of two beams apart and follow the curve of the hull along the ceiling plank. They are chocked at the keelson and are cut with a bird's mouth into the overhead lower deck beams. Being bolted every two feet through the bottom plank with one and one-eighth inch copper bolts, the diagonal rider becomes the unifying member joining hull sections together, stiffening the hull and resisting the forces which cause hogging.
Throughout the last 200 years as Constitution's purpose and function changed from fighting warship, to training vessel, to receiving ship, to dock side exhibit, so did Constitution's configuration. Also, Constitution's repair(s) did not always retain her original construction. The five structural components were expensive in materials, techniques, and labor to install. As early as 1820, the diagonal riders were not renewed in Constitution's repairs. Those five components were not part of Constitution's structure when drydocked in 1992.
Over the years, age began to show on the hull of Constitution. By 1992 Constitution had developed over 13 inches of hog. Many suggestions had been proposed for stiffening the hull: air bags, steel girders, and space frames. None of these were historically accurate and none were congruent with the fabric of the ship.

In 1993, aware of the structural needs of an aging hull and that Humphreys had already answered these questions, NHC Detachment Boston modeled the five historical structural components. Using a 1:16 scale model of Constitution, a 10% increase in hull stiffness to resist hogging was shown. Just as Humphreys specified in 1794, the Detachment recognized in 1994 the effectiveness of the structural components and successfully extended the dry dock repair activity to include the restoration of those five structural components.

The drydock repair consisted of both rehabilitation, (the repair of deteriorated structure) and restoration, (putting back into Constitution components of her 1812 configuration). To restore the structural components during the 1992 drydock repair was a justified expenditure of labor, techniques, and materials. Due to the limited availability of the required natural timber, glue lamination technology supplied much of the wood shaped to Humphreys' dimensional specifications.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 11:11 am
@farmerman,
Set us a 20 question, multiple choice, test on the lesson fm and see how we do.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 11:47 am
@spendius,
OK. How do you put an elephant in the refrigerator?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 11:53 am
@farmerman,
You get a commercial refrigerator I should think with the money from selling the tusks.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 12:10 pm
@spendius,
Wrong!, You open the fridge door and put in the elephant.

OK, that was just a trial.

How do you put a giraffe in a refrigerator?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 01:57 pm
@farmerman,
That's fascinatin' ****, FM, thanks . . .

Much more entertaining and edifying than that bible bullshit . . .
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 03:29 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Wrong!, You open the fridge door and put in the elephant.


What do you mean--"wrong"? That's what I said. If you are going to ask how to put an elephant in the fridge obviously you put it in. And to do that it is equally obvious that you have to open the door to put it in. And it's equally obvious that you have to get a fridge. With two equals they are either both wrong or both right. And it wouldn't make sense to leave the tusks on because not only would you need a much bigger fridge but you also wouldn't get the money for the tusks.

That's how I would do it and that's what you asked for. I might try a baby elephant. But a baby giraffe is easy. You put the rump steaks on the top shelf, the leg cuts on the middle and the chops on the bottom shelf. That meat from the shins which Rider Haggard raved about you put in the compartments of the door. The tripes go in the waste bin for the glue factory where they make the envelopes for us to lick.

Had I said--You open the fridge doors and place inside the elephant, you could still say I was wrong and for three different reasons. And had I given you answer verbatim you could still say I was wrong by changing your own sentence construction after the event like you tried predicting some of the football results after the game had been played.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 03:49 pm
@Setanta,
I have to see Ironsides before I check out. I never have taken the time or else the kids never wanted to take it in cause it didnt have a big engine.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 03:53 pm
@spendius,
Wrong, you open the door, take out the elephant, put in the giraffe and then close the door. These are questions that most 5 year old kids can do.


spendius
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 05:22 pm
@farmerman,
Yes--I know. I'm not a 5 year old kid though. If I was I would ask what the **** is a giraffe doing in the fridge when it could be full of sweet drinks and crispy chocolate biscuit bars?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:34 pm
@farmerman,
You've done it again....werent you going to not say anything to me ?
Quote:
spendi, I just ignore
Definition of a bigot, bigot.
Quote:
You, on the other hand, suffer from post service attitudinal syndrome.
A geologist making psychiatric assessments. Well why not, you couldnt do as badly as you do at everything else.
Quote:
You try to slice anothers posts and assert that there is some meaning in that persons post that was neither stated nor implied.
Would you listren to this dribble you are coming out with ? Your arguments are perfect, they have no flaws, stated or implied.
Quote:
I wonder what the other Australians think about your efforts?
I wonder what the other Americans think about your efforts?
Seek help for your senility problem before you embarass yourself further. You have old man syndrome. Testosterone drops off at roughly 1-2% per year of life. When you run out, as you obviously have, you become belligerant and stupid. Seek help, you old fart.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:39 pm
@farmerman,
Farmerman -
Quote:
Wrong!, You open the fridge door and put in the elephant.

Setanta -
Quote:
That's fascinatin' ****, FM, thanks . . .

and
Quote:
Much more entertaining and edifying than that bible bullshit . . .
Do you two know what thread you are in because next week we will cover remembering to dress yourself before going for a confused stroll.

Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:41 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I have to see Ironsides before I check out.
Dont let me stop you.
0 Replies
 
 

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