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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jan, 2010 11:45 am
@spendius,
Life imitates art. Footballer's Wives now headline news.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jan, 2010 07:31 pm
LOUISIANA UPDATE
Quote:
The Dance of the Louisiana State Science Fair, Or: Notes from the War on Science in Louisiana
(Vince LiCata, ScienceBlogs.com, January 31, 2010)

When the most recent LSU budget cuts were handed down by the Louisiana governor a couple of weeks ago, one of the items that went on the chopping block was the Louisiana State Science and Engineering Fair, which has long been sponsored and hosted by the university. In a state with a creationist governor, and a state that recently became a national embarrassment by passing into law one of the Discovery Institute's new pseudonyms for teaching creationism, it is extraordinarily frightening that the State Science Fair might be canceled. Although it was indirect (the governor just forced the budget cuts, he didn't actively target the science fair), it does, however, make it a lot easier to push for creationism if you hinder the ability of the students in your state to become scientists.

Thankfully, after a couple of weeks of scrambling, the Science Fair is now back on. But it was not a direct route.

During those two weeks, it was on again, off again, on again, as the Fair moved from being officially canceled, to being picked up by a group called the Pelican Educational Foundation, to discovering that the private foundation didn't have the proper Science Fair accreditation to sponsor the Fair (i.e. winners of this version of the State Fair would not have been qualified for higher level fairs), to finally arriving at a joint LSU-Pelican Educational Foundation rescheduled fair on a new date in a new location. Whew.

It's been like a battlefield in Louisiana over the past year and a half. Our self-proclaimed "intellectual" governor has systematically handed down more and deeper budget cuts to the university - now, of course budget problems are being dealt with in every state - but Governor Jindal is making deeper and deeper cuts while also continuing to refuse federal stimulus money because it might hurt his chances of becoming the next Sarah Palin. (A few days ago the LSU Faculty Senate even officially wrote the Secretary of Education to try to work around the governor's most recent stimulus money roadblock).

Furthermore, as much of the scientific community knows, the governor and the Louisiana legislature pushed for and then signed into law the "Louisiana Science Education Act," (aka the "Louisiana Academic Freedom Act") drafted by the Discovery Institute and basically saying that "academic freedom" protects the right of science teachers to choose to teach creationism as a scientific theory.

The passing of the "Louisiana (Non) Science Education Act" was and is a national embarrassment for Louisiana, and it makes all real scientists in Louisiana burn with indignity and anger simply by virtue of where we live and work.

Despite these best efforts of our self-proclaimed "intellectual" governor, LSU has successfully clawed its way into US News and World Report's list of "Top Tier" universities for two years running. But it's tough to feel loved when your state government wants to get rid of that pesky little nuisance called "science". I mean, the State Science Fair almost disappeared! This is not a big budget item. What kind of message is being sent to the students in Louisiana from all these events? What will happen to the Science Fair next year? (Will it be forced to become the "Academic Freedom Fair" to insure state support?) Where will Louisiana's next generation of scientists come from, and how will all of this affect their desire to become scientists? It's simply a sad, sad shame for Louisiana that we even have to ask such questions. Is this really 2010?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jan, 2010 08:39 pm
@wandeljw,
In the past,Weve had several CREATIONIST projects in the LAncaster County SCience and ENgineering Fair. There was one that recd a lot of attention by the papers. The school (the Lancaster Mennonite Academy) was teaching Bibliteral crap in science and(because its a private /parochial school) it can look as Midieval and ridiculous as it wants as long as the kids meet the standardized test requirements. The Creationist project was "proof" of the Flood using Piercian Flood Geology "tools"
(You know the fossils on the hilltop crap, and a "flood map linking pennsylvanian and Triassic aged lake sedimenst). It was obvious that there was an agenda. I was working for the ed committee at the time and , while the kids were allowed their projects for that year, the vast majority of the judges were vocal in their critiques of the science teachers method of interpreting science.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 07:53 am
@farmerman,
I can't see the point of your post fm, nor the one preceding it. Your use of the word "crap", and Vince LiCata's equally silly language, tells us all that nothing new is coming up which we haven't heard many times before and which will persaude no-one on either side to shift their position. There are no neutrals in the case.

In fact such language use discredits the side employing it. No intelligent person is going to fail to see that the 2 paragraphs you have posted are entirely dependent on your use of "crap". They have no meaning without it.

The only functions of that usage that I can see is to bolster your own confidence that your case is the correct one and to afford you yet another opportunity to make derogatory remarks about other people.

You ought to get on with the proper case for Eliminativism which I partially explained on the Pick-Um thread. It is obvious you daren't attempt to do that because you know it would lose you support and also because you are not an Eliminativist and are simply playing around with these issues for subjective reasons and having nothing to do with science. It would also be personally challenging.

The materialist who is not an Eliminativist is a snake-oil salesman. How can there be shades of materialism? It exists full-blown or not at all.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 08:17 am
@spendius,
Th purpose of your post is transparent spendi. You need to impress anyone in earshot with a recently discovered word, so you first try (according to you) to impress the **** out of the people on the Fooball thread. When they didnt bite, you decided to come over here and try to sound erudite .
I congratulate you for your educability and your willingness to "share" with us, even though you dont get the context and direction of this thread.

Youll find that most of us are patient folks who feel that , sooner or later, you may yet understand the actual purpose of two way communication. I can always hope

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 08:24 am
@farmerman,
What our resident dunderpate doesnt get is that THIS IS ACTUALLY OCCURING in the US, and that Bobby Jindhal, is getting his campaign for the Vice Presidency organized as we speak.
Im hoping that the party wont want to be embarrased by a certified ID er on the ticket, Were he an actual candidate, hed be such a lightning rod of the newspapers. Hed make Dan Quayle look like Sir Isaac Newton.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 10:34 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Th purpose of your post is transparent spendi. You need to impress anyone in earshot with a recently discovered word, so you first try (according to you) to impress the **** out of the people on the Fooball thread. When they didnt bite, you decided to come over here and try to sound erudite .


Woffle. I raised the materialist theory of mind on these science threads over six years ago. That is Eliminativism. It is well known and nothing new to me. I can't get you anti-IDers to give it the time of day despite it being what you stand for without, seemingly, you knowing it, or putting you to the emotional discomfort of drawing the obvious logical conclusions from it.

It obviously eliminates, scientifically, any other considerations going beyond the motions and actions of matter/energy in any object including human brains. You have to accept it. Thoughts and emotions are material objects and can be redesigned in places like your proposed re-education camps for those who spout "crap". Obviously the thought that they do spout "crap" is also a material object designed by who knows what in your socialisation which laid the pattern on your tabula rasa at your conception. The tabula rasa being, of course, an empiricist notion and thus in congruence with your general position.

I make no apologies for taking every opportunity to impress anyone in earshot that the anti-ID position is full of holes in relation to organising a successful society containing millions of people of widely diverging capacities and fulfilling a broad variety of roles. One is not organising society when looking into a microscope or studying a fossil. Nor is one being scientific when one declares the thoughts and emotions of others to be "crap" and it is easy to imagine that you demand that everybody sees what you see in the microscope or in the fossil when the material of their brains is ordered differently from your's and is thus "crap".

I was also mindful that you read the football thread. And I had no need to impress the good folks on that thread because I had topped the table after 17 weeks of predictions involving nearly 300 games. Predictions, I might add, made before the results came in unlike your derisory attempts to impress people in earshot with your knowledge of football, statistics and betting.

And I didn't expect anybody to "bite". And I explained why.

Quote:
I congratulate you for your educability and your willingness to "share" with us, even though you dont get the context and direction of this thread.


Thanks. The context and direction of this thread is a matter of interest in relation to Eliminativism because Eliminativism is where the teaching of evolutionary theory cannot help ending up just as a non-stop train from Glasgow to London ends up in Euston Station. Your twee pretence that it doesn't is touching and I sympathise but sympathy is hardly conducive to scientific rigour now is it?

All I was attempting was enabling people to know which train you are encouraging them to board. That is the stated purpose of A2K. If they don't want to know and are content to have you guide them without you being put to the trouble of explaining where they are going good luck to them.

I'm content with things as they are.




farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 10:40 am
@spendius,
OOOOOH Isnt he a clever little fellow?
   http://cdn-sitelife.ehow.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/1/1/21d0657c-6852-4e84-b15c-a5cb4c94d707.Medium.jpg
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 10:49 am
@farmerman,
I don't know much about Bobby Jindal but from what I do know he has a very difficult job and I don't believe for one moment that he thinks the earth was created in 6 days about 6,000 years ago.

I admire the man and I assume his decisions are not exclusively derived from peering into a microscope or interpreting fossils.

PS--it has struck me lately that the more credibility there is attached to fossils the greater will be the motivation to produce fakes. And we have seen in the art world what powerful motives allied with human ingenuity can do.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 11:51 am
I sometimes wonder about Jindal's standing as an intellectual. He went to Oxford as a Rhodes scholar. At Oxford, he participated in an exorcism of a troubled female classmate. He wrote an account of the exorcism for a magazine in 1994.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 11:56 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:



PS--it has struck me lately that the more credibility there is attached to fossils the greater will be the motivation to produce fakes. And we have seen in the art world what powerful motives allied with human ingenuity can do.


It's always so easy to fake what another human created.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 12:03 pm
@wandeljw,
An ideal subject for an imaginative writer wande.

If he was a Rhodes scholar I don't think you need exercise your mind on his intellectual status. It can either be taken for granted as high flying or the selection process was corrupt and, as he is black, I very much doubt the latter.

Given the selections of tripe you see fit to burden us with I hardly think you are qualified to comment on it let alone call it into question.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 12:14 pm
@parados,
Quote:
It's always so easy to fake what another human created.


It is not so easy to do it and sell it for millions to art galleries of renown. Which has been done.

Try faking a Dylan song. A fake Mr Tambourine Man say. Or an Ain't Talkin'.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 01:10 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:
I sometimes wonder about Jindal's standing as an intellectual. He went to Oxford as a Rhodes scholar. At Oxford, he participated in an exorcism of a troubled female classmate. He wrote an account of the exorcism for a magazine in 1994.

Intelligence and insanity aren't always mutually exclusive. Sometimes very smart people are as crazy as it gets.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 02:32 pm
@rosborne979,
It's pretty smart getting elected govenor of a state of 4.5 million people with offshore oil and we don't know what he did in his "exorcism" of the troubled young Oxford undergraduate of the female sex so we can't say it was "crazy". It might have been a perfectly rational and quite understandable process for all we know. Exorcism, in the sense of expelling an inner devil, takes many forms.

We know he's smart. We don't know he's crazy. What does ros's witticism mean then?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 02:57 pm
@rosborne979,
I would love it if someone could find that article on the exorcism. Ive heard Jindhal talk and he sounds like many of the "chosen" here on A2K. He sidesteps his training in microbio and uses DNA as a "proof" of Creation. SO he cant be that awfully smart.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 03:17 pm
@farmerman,
The article is "BEATING A DEMON: Physical Dimensions of Spiritual Warfare" by Bobby Jindal/New Oxford Review/December 1994. The entire article can be purchased online.

Here is an excerpt:
Quote:
A senior in UCF (University Christian Fellowship) and a leader of my Bible study group had once asked me if I believed in angels, spirits, and other such apparitions. I had recently heard a priest confidently proclaim that the Bible's words on such phenomena were never meant to be inter-preted literally; he had historical evidence that incidents involving spirits were merely metaphors for tangible events. Being a new Catholic and very eager to avoid the subject, I had accepted the priest's views without question. After I related my doubts, the senior proceeded to describe recent incidents involving mutual acquaintances -- e.g., a woman who claimed demons inflicted physical scars on her arms. I remained polite, but incredulous. The issue of spirits did not affect me, and I was thus content to leave its resolution to others. I had no opinions or feelings on the subject.

But Susan was forcing me to take a stand on the entire issue of spirits and charismatic Christians. Having given the subject little thought, I was hardly ready to present an informed opinion. Susan was my closest friend and I would have tried to believe her had she claimed Martians had kidnapped her; friends are supposed to believe in each other even when nobody else does. Despite my verbal reassurances and lack of condemnations, Susan knew me well enough to see that I was having problems accepting her visions and spirits. I was doing everything I could to convey my support and sympathy; however, I was definitely in unfamiliar territory and was overwhelmed by the strength of her convictions. I wavered between my loyalty to Susan and the apparent irrationality of her claims.

I left the room we were in for a moment, on some flimsy pretense, made the sign of the cross in desperation, and pleaded with God for divine assistance. Seconds after I re-entered the room, Susan angrily lashed out at me, telling me she never wanted to talk with me again since I did not love her, and ran out in tears. I tried following her, to no avail. I did not understand what I had done. All I could think was, "Gee, thanks God. So much for prayer." I realized that Susan had never fully presented her interpretation of the recent events in her life, and I had not had the chance to accept or reject her claims. The entire conversation remained very nebulous in my mind, and many of Susan's reactions made little sense. I had a vague sense that her anger and tears involved both my inability to care for her and also my inability to understand her recent experiences.

I was stunned, and so was hardly prepared for what was to follow the next day. While Susan's older sister flew in to provide comfort during this trying time, Susan visited the doctor for one last set of tests. UCF had organized a prayer meeting that night for Susan's upcoming operation and the intense emotional trials she had endured. I called Susan, in an attempt to make peace, but was greeted with cold indifference. As she was hanging up, I asked if she wanted my presence at the prayer meeting. She declined the offer, but suddenly changed her mind just before the line was disconnected. I, along with several other students, gathered in a classroom, despite the hectic finals schedule, to of¬fer our prayers and support for Susan. Since she was a very active member and Bible study leader in UCF, many upperclassmen were in attendance. These students, the most active and experienced Protestant leaders on campus, came from different churches with different creeds.

The meeting started, as did any other UCF gathering, with group songs and a few prayers. We sat in a circle on the floor so we could face one another. Susan refused to acknowledge my presence when I entered. Though I was accustomed to feeling an emotional high during these meetings, I felt the initial songs were a bit dry. Given the circumstances, the group had lost much of its normal enthusiasm. Susan's sister then asked for a period of meditative prayer, the entire group would fall silent while individuals would pray aloud "as the Spirit led them." This is a common practice in both Bible studies and group meetings within UCF. My inexperience as a new Christian and my reserved nature prevented me from speaking during these times; rather, I prayed silently.

After a period of group prayer, a student made a movement to end the meeting. Suddenly, Susan emitted some strange guttural sounds and fell to the floor. She started thrashing about, as if in some sort of seizure. Susan's sister must have recognized what was happening, for she ordered us to gather around and place our hands on Susan's prostrate body. I refused to budge from my position and froze in horror. I will never forget the first comprehensible sound that came from Susan; she screamed my name with such an urgency that the chill still travels down my spine whenever I recall this moment.

Confused as to the events occurring before my very eyes, I responded to the desperation and cry for help so evident in Susan's voice. I wanted to rescue my friend from these horrible people who were holding her down and ridiculing her dignity. I tentatively approached the group and placed the edge of my fingertip on her shoulder, as if afraid of becoming infected with the disease that was ravaging her body. I had yet to realize that the affliction was ravaging her soul.

In a voice I had never heard before or since, Susan accused me: "Bobby, you cannot even love Susan." Before I even noticed the sound of her voice, I thought it funny that Susan would refer to herself in the third person. Then the full impact of the words hit me. Forgetting the frantic students around me and even poor Susan lying on the floor, I thought of our conversation the day before. The real argument had been whether I was capable of loving Susan. I needed the answer to be yes, more for my sake than ours. I have always been a closed and relatively unemotional person and needed to know that my best friend felt that I at least could love her, due to some very strong remarks made two years before by my former girlfriend (hardly an objective source), I was beginning to doubt that I had the capacity for feeling.

Knowing that I was doing Susan no good, I quickly retreated to the opposite side of the room. Susan proceeded to denounce every individual in the room, often citing very private and confidential information she could not possibly have known on her own. It was information capable of hurting individuals -- attacking people, as she did, by revealing their hidden feelings, fears, and worries. The night was just beginning!
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 04:13 pm
@wandeljw,
Where's the rest of it wande. It's a hoot.

I would have scarpered.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 04:28 pm
@spendius,
I think the website for New Oxford Review will allow you to download the entire article for a small fee.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 04:29 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I would love it if someone could find that article on the exorcism. Ive heard Jindhal talk and he sounds like many of the "chosen" here on A2K. He sidesteps his training in microbio and uses DNA as a "proof" of Creation. SO he cant be that awfully smart.


You don't need to be awfully smart to use DNA to prove creation. (Why did you capitalise the word fm--a Freudian slip eh?).

As Gov. of one state he's about 96% smart. And born of illegal immigrants he's the American Dream personified. It's renaissance.

Rhodes scholar is about 99.999% smart or whatever 100 4millionths is.

Quote:
"He always had his eye on, first of all, where he wanted to go, and second, how he was going to get there," says a former teacher. As a youngster, Bobby competed in tennis tournaments; started a computer newsletter, a retail candy business, and a mail-order software company; and spent his free time working at the concession stands during LSU football games.


It speaks for itself. He's awfully, awfully smart I would have said and with more than just gobbing off to back it up.

And he got a job and he got married and he stayed married. Like Bill Clinton said to do.

0 Replies
 
 

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