@Ceili,
If some of us didn't make a noise Ceili about other folk malking a noise the party of the second part would end up with a monopoly on making a noise. You silly Moocow.
The said party with the monopoly on making a noise would either have to go quiet when you complained about making a noise, in which case you would get a deathly hush which would scare the living daylights out of you, or shut you up.
Are you not satisfied with making a noise about undermining our religion, your's too if only you knew it, without having to be making a noise about undermining the very basis of our society.
@Ceili,
Hardly a level up from Yahoo Chat -- that noise you might hear are beer brain farts.
Blah blah blah....
moocow - haven't been laid in a while eh? Whiskey dick.. I'm sure.
...blah blah blah...Our religion? ha ha ha
I noticed, while in Ireland, that the side who spent an eternity denying other's rights based on out dated prejudices are the proponents of creationism.. The communities that still march with hate as a banner are the more depressed economies and are failing fast.
I have to wonder why you could think that we might share anything, other than the unfortunate side effects of genetics. While I realize you might be a little choked up your family has not crawled too far out of the muck, I must reconcile that we share a common DNA structure, thankfully my family evolved...
@Ceili,
Door slams--sound of thrumming high heels fading away down the corridor--outer door slams- chap stares vacantly into space.
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
chap stares vacantly into space.
Too funny.. That's exactly as I picture you. In a stunned stupor...
with a big bulbous rosacea nose.
@Ceili,
Just don't throw his cross-dressing clothes out the window after him.
@farmerman,
Quote: WIth opinions like that, noone would have invented the light bulb , let alone television.
It struck me when thinking about that that those inventions are the inevitable consequence of preceeding inventions and that if one tried to trace the connections in the family tree of inventions one might speculate that the invention of creating a chronology of ancestors connecting the legends of creation to the present is the first cause invention or at least the missing link. That was an astounding invention. It took place in the region of Palestine and the Persia of Cyrus's time.
The creation legends are a recognition that there is a foggy ruin of dissolved remoteness. One of the creation legends led to Christianity, science, light-bulbs and television in very quick time on any real historical perspective.
And the invention was confined to that class of persons who were the big government of the day. And all other inventions might be said to be side-effects in the same way objects are the side effects of a Big Bang. Including the invention of a mass brains inventing things.
And then--maybe the invention of ruling elites was the key invention and they invented the various chronologies to confirm themselves in office.
I'll have to read The Golden Bough again. I wasn't ready to read it when I did.
UPDATE ON TEACHER SUED FOR ANTI-CREATIONISM REMARKS
Quote:UCI law dean Chemerinsky to represent teacher sued by student
(By SCOTT MARTINDALE, The Orange County Register, October 26, 2009)
Nationally renowned constitutional scholar Erwin Chemerinsky, dean of UC Irvine's law school, will represent high school teacher James Corbett in appealing a federal court ruling that found Corbett violated a student's First Amendment rights.
Corbett, who referred to Creationism as "religious, superstitious nonsense" during a fall 2007 classroom lecture, filed his appeal today with the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. Chemerinsky was named in the filings as a member of Corbett's new, four-person defense team. All of the attorneys will work on a pro bono basis.
"Dr. Corbett has rendered an extraordinary service to the Capistrano Unified School District and its students for many, many years," said one of the attorneys, Craig Johnson, who works in Riverside, "and I think that it is a disservice to his record and his legacy to allow the current ruling on summary judgment to stand."
Chemerinsky did not immediately return a request for comment.
Corbett, a history teacher at Mission Viejo's Capistrano Valley High School, has been represented for the past two years by attorneys retained by the Capistrano Unified School District and the California Teachers Association union. Some issues " including who will pay court costs and attorneys fees " have yet to be decided at the trial court level.
Corbett's original legal team will continue to represent him on those issues, while Chemerinsky and the others will work on his appeal.
Meanwhile, attorneys for student Chad Farnan " who initiated the lawsuit against Corbett two years ago " simultaneously appealed the case today to the Ninth Circuit. They believe U.S. District Judge James Selna should have found Corbett liable for more than just the Creationism comment; the original lawsuit presented 22 statements attributed to Corbett that were purported First Amendment violations.
"We will ask the court to reconsider all 22 statements," said Farnan's attorney, Robert Tyler. "We hope that the Court of Appeals will recognize that comments like, 'Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool,' are truly a violation of the establishment clause, when used in the context used by Dr. Corbett."
The First Amendment's establishment clause prohibits the government from making any law "respecting an establishment of religion" and has been interpreted by U.S. courts to also prohibit government employees from displaying religious hostility.
Farnan's attorneys also are appealing a ruling by Selna last month that found Corbett not financially liable for his actions under a qualified immunity defense.
"Chad really believes he's doing the right thing," said his mother, Teresa Farnan, of Mission Viejo. "He's not getting any money out of this; he had to leave a class that could have helped him get into college. Any student should be able to sit in the classroom without having their beliefs attacked."
Because both sides appealed the case today " which was the legal deadline to file an appeal " it's not immediately clear which side appealed and which side cross-appealed. Both sides say they cross-appealed.
In the end, though, it won't matter, as both sides are asking the 9th Circuit to reconsider essentially all of the facts of the case.
"What we're looking for is an opinion that more broadly articulates the doctrine of hostility in the public school classroom," Tyler said.
Farnan, 17, will continue to be represented by Advocates for Faith & Freedom, the Murrietta-based Christian legal group that has represented him on a pro bono basis since his lawsuit was filed.
Tyler said he was not concerned about Corbett's new defense team.
"It is of no concern that a liberal law school dean is taking Dr. Corbett's side in this case," Tyler said. "It is no surprise, just as it is no surprise that Advocates for Faith & Freedom is taking a conservative role in this case on behalf of Chad Farnan."
Johnson said Corbett has spent the past few months assembling a defense team for an appeal, in case Corbett did not get a ruling in his favor.
"In the event of an adverse ruling, he said he wanted to assemble an appellate team," Johnson said. "His statements were all taken out of context. As a father of two high school students in the district (Capistrano Unified), I believe European history lends itself so well to independent thought and critical reasoning. That is the very end Dr. Corbett seeks in trying to prompt his students through the Socratic method."
@wandeljw,
Silly; how can Chad Farnan prove his case to prove what Corbett said is wrong?
Truth is what matters in teaching. Farnan can continue to believe in whatever fairytale he wishes before, during, and after what Corbett said. What changes?
If he doesn't accept truth and fact, what is his argument? Farnan must prove Corbett is wrong to win his case, and that's impossible.
Farnan still has the right to believe in fairytales.
@cicerone imposter,
Farnan and his attorneys are approaching it as if he had been raped and the scars left behind are going to affect his life. Bullshit. If he's that thin-skinned, he'd better leave this planet -- he's not going to be able to avoid all anti-religious rhetoric for the rest of his life. If he takes ancient history through the Middle Ages, he's going to hear and read a plethora of negatives with the positives about religions. I'm just guessing he won't be going into theology and part of this whole affair is parent pressure. Shouldn't he be studying and not spending all his time on this baloney? It's just a childish vendetta.
That stated, I still don't endorse Corbett's negative rhetoric in a science class. Otherwise, it looks to me like he is a fine teacher.
@Lightwizard,
I agree; a teacher shouldn't be expressing personal views about religion in any science class.
@Lightwizard,
You are correct in saying that students will naturally hear negative things about religion when studying history, LW.
However, I hope you were not saying that Corbett himself is a science teacher. (I believe Corbett teaches history or social studies.)
@wandeljw,
It's one of those issues where the legal system has gone haywire; a student suing their teacher shows that teacher respect is totally gone, and students are controlling the teaching environment.
Religion has become the controller of the American brain.
@wandeljw,
I don't know where I got that impression that he might have been teaching science -- it's maybe a shade less problematic in history and social studies, that is, if his comments are not in the context of going off script and bringing up evolution up in the subject of history. That is, of course, quite possible to do.
I think we need a refreshment of the history of this case as it gets lost in the shuffle, especially since the subject of scientists like Dawkins dissing religion and creationism gets intermingled:
From the OC Weekly:
James Corbett's Anti-Establishment Comment
By DAFFODIL J. ALTAN
Published on May 06, 2009 at 10:30am
A federal judge finds Capo Valley High teacher James Corbett violated student Chad Farnan’s rights by talking smack about creationism
Sometimes karma is a bitch. And it seems karma came back and bit Capistrano Valley High School history teacher James Corbett in the butt late last week, when a federal judge found that Corbett had violated a student’s First Amendment rights"with a single statement Corbett made in his classroom about one of his former colleagues.
Chad Farnan, a sophomore in Corbett’s Advanced Placement European History class, sued Corbett in late 2007 for allegedly insulting Christians and Christianity during class time (see “Class Warfare,” April 9, 2008). Snippets of the hours of tape Farnan secretly recorded in Corbett’s class and submitted with his lawsuit were leaked to the media, and both student and teacher made instant, national headlines. Corbett received death threats; Farnan created a website and chatted on national TV with Bill O’Reilly; ex-students from Corbett’s class (Christian and non-Christian alike) protested the lawsuit at the school, created a Facebook fan site and sent hundreds of letters of support (including one from a former student who was Sarah Palin’s press secretary).
Last week, after more than a year of failed mediation meetings and delayed rulings, with the case on the verge of going to trial, the suit came to a close with federal district court Judge James Selna’s summary judgment. Headlines instantly cast Corbett as “guilty” of “insulting Christians.” But although the judge ruled against Corbett for one comment, he ruled that Corbett had not violated the constitution with the more than 20 other statements submitted for scrutiny in the case.
In an exclusive interview with the Weekly, Corbett says he felt “beaten up” after the ruling was issued on Friday. “I expected to win. I expected the whole case would be thrown out,” he says. But after rereading it and thinking about it, he says he’s come to different conclusions with regard to the judgments in his favor. “I think it’s a victory for the right of teachers to provoke students into thinking,” he says. “The judge was quite perspicacious in recognizing that I’m really, in general, not hostile to anyone’s religious point of view.”
The statement Selna found to have violated the Establishment Clause for expressing a “disapproval” of religion wasn’t the now-famous “Jesus glasses” statement. Selna tossed that quote out, stating in his ruling that once the quote was placed in context, “One cannot say that Corbett’s primary purpose here was to criticize Christianity or religion.”
The troublesome quote had to do with John Peloza, a biology teacher who openly taught creationism at Capistrano Valley High and who sued the district in 1991, alleging he was being forced to teach “the religion” of evolution. Corbett was also named in that suit (he was the adviser to the student newspaper then). The suit was dismissed and called “frivolous” by a U.S. district judge, who agreed with the district’s position that Peloza improperly violated state-mandated science curricula by teaching creationism.
In class, Corbett recounted what he said to an attorney years ago: “I said I would be willing to sign a release, freeing the district from any obligation to defend me, but that I would not allow John Peloza to propagandize kids with this superstitious, religious nonsense,” he says. That statement was recorded by Farnan and submitted with his suit. “The court cannot discern a legitimate secular purpose in this statement, even when considered in context,” Selna writes. Thus, the statement constitutes “improper disapproval of religion in violation of the Establishment Clause.”
The Farnans’ lawyer, Jennifer Monk, says that the single ruling against Corbett is enough for them to consider the suit victorious. “The judge determined that Corbett violated the Establishment Clause,” she says. “That’s all we need, whether it was one statement or a lot of statements.” Chad Farnan did not respond to the Weekly’s requests for comment.
Monk says the Farnans are seeking nominal fees, an injunction preventing Corbett from “teaching this way in the future,” and training for"and monitoring of"the teacher. “This isn’t about Dr. Corbett’s ability to teach; it’s about his disapproval of religion in the classroom,” she says.
Corbett says he hopes to appeal the decision. What worries him, he says, is the federal precedent the ruling against him has set. “You’d almost have to survey the class to find out what their beliefs are so you wouldn’t insult anyone,” he says. “We have kids who are Wiccan. We have every religion in the world, and atheists and agnostics. The decision puts teachers in a position of not knowing what they can and can’t say.”
This not rather represents a clash between the first and second amendment, doesn't it?
@Lightwizard,
If and when I find a link to the opinion itself (or somebody posts one), I would like to see how the judge gets from this statement of Selna's ...
Quote: I would not allow John Peloza to propagandize kids with this superstitious, religious nonsense
... to this one:
Quote:Thus, the statement constitutes “improper disapproval of religion in violation of the Establishment Clause.”
On its face, all that Selna's statement constitutes is disaproval of propaganda, superstition, and nonsense -- which is utterly proper for a teacher to express. The religious origin of the nonsensical superstitious propaganda is incidental. Selna might as well have spoken out against "propagandizing kids with superstitious communist nonsense" or "superstitious libertarian nonsense".
Superstitious nonsense shouldn't get a free ride just for being peddled by organizations -- as Richard Dawkins and other people Lightwizard disapproves of are very correct to point out.
But maybe there's something else in the court's opinion that the newspaper comment isn't telling.
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:On its face, all that Selna's statement constitutes is disaproval of propaganda, superstition, and nonsense -- which is utterly proper for a teacher to express. The religious origin of the nonsensical superstitious propaganda is incidental. Selna might as well have spoken out against "propagandizing kids with superstitious communist nonsense" or "superstitious libertarian nonsense".
Grrrrr ... Can't keep my names straight. Please substitute "Corbett" (the teacher) for "Selna" (the student). Sorry about any confusion I might have caused.
It almost looks like the judge used a Ouija board in order to pick out that one statement as qualifying a judgment against Corbett.
As far as there being a counter to the creationists/ID organizations, there is a very strong one, spearheaded by the NSTA. The Capistrano school district not only didn't proceed with any reprimand for Corbett's allegedly anti-religious statements, they hired the attorneys to protect his rights when he was sued. But the student (and obviously his parents) wanted to go further feeling, as I stated, that they've been personally injured. I don't see that.
But going into a diatribe, no matter how short, about people's personal beliefs doesn't belong in, at least, a public schoolroom. There's softer, easier ways to address separating evolution from creation, or an intelligent designer, without resorting to such strong rhetoric in a science or even in a history class. If the university is private, that's going to involve the policies of the dean.
The Discovery Institute got its feet wet in court and had the rug pulled out from under them in Dover. I think there's plenty of organizations, sites and blogs debunking creationism and intelligent design. The gray line now are those, especially scientists, who know evolution is backed by enough evidence not to be able to deny it but they have their own personal idea of deism or some other spiritual faith in a creator.
It's obvious to me and I think religious leaders and theologians that the ball is slowly swinging counter to their beliefs.
@Lightwizard,
True. Attendance to most churches have been dropping, and not many are going into the priesthood. Even as most Americans still declare a religion, their attendance have been falling.
