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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 07:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The contradictions to science in the Bible are to be expected considering when it was compiled -- the only viable science library was at Alexandria and it was burned down. The Bible contradicts itself a countless number of times, so how does anyone who swallows the Bible stories (an uncloaked euphemism for "tales") be expected to swallow the science of evolution?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 07:16 pm
@Lightwizard,
It takes a whole lot'sa effort to keep rationalizing away the facts until they know they are having problems in logic and common sense.

I believe it's fear that makes them fight the facts before them.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 07:26 pm
@wandeljw,
I agree that it just gives the "attraction" free advertising. These "associations" are, after all, riddled with committees and those who just have a passing interest in the movement. I think the camel in Noah's Ark Zoo is a substitute for a horse. All the millions of people in this world and they're worried about 120,000 people a year visiting this zoo (likely, as with Disneyland or other attractions, the majority are those who return annually or even more frequently).

If they are trying to disguise their purpose, they're doing an awfully poor job of it.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Aug, 2009 08:48 am
Quote:
More ‘Evidence’ of Intelligent Design Shot Down by Science
(By Brandon Keim, Wired.com, August 27, 2009)

Intricate cellular components are often cited as evidence of intelligent design. They couldn’t have evolved, I.D. proponents say, because they can’t be broken down into smaller, simpler functional parts. They are irreducibly complex, so they must have been intentionally designed, as is, by an intelligent entity.

But new research comparing mitochondria, which provide energy to animal cells, with their bacterial relatives, shows that the necessary pieces for one particular cellular machine " exactly the sort of structure that’s supposed to prove intelligent design " were lying around long ago. It was simply a matter of time before they came together into a more complex entity.

The pieces “were involved in some other, different function. They were recruited and acquired a new function,” said Sebastian Poggio, a postdoctoral cell biologist at Yale University and co-author of the study published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Mitochondria are descended from free-living bacteria, which several billion years ago were swallowed by complex cells. The mitochondria soon became central to the cells’ function.

Mitochondria couldn’t have lasted in their new home without the help of a protein machine called TIM23, which delivers other proteins harvested from the cell’s body. Bacteria don’t possess TIM23, suggesting that it evolved in mitochondria. This seems to pose a cellular chicken-and-egg question: How could protein transport evolve when it was necessary to survive in the first place?

The essential paradox applies to other protein-transporting cell systems, providing disbelievers of evolution with a key part of their critique. As articulated by intelligent design proponent Michael Behe, “This constant, regulated traffic flow in the cell comprises another remarkably complex, irreducible system. All parts must function or the system breaks down.”

According to evolutionary theory, however, cellular complexity is reducible. It requires only that existing components be repurposed, with inevitable mutations providing extra ingredients as needed. Flagella, the hairlike propellers used by bacteria to move, are one example of this. Their component parts are found throughout cells, performing other tasks.

Intelligent design mavens once cited flagella as evidence of their theory. Scientific fact dispelled that illusion. The mitochondria study does the same for protein transport.

“This analysis of protein transport provides a blueprint for the evolution of cellular machinery in general,” write the researchers, led by molecular biologist Trevor Lithgow at Australia’s Monash University. “The complexity of these machines is not irreducible.”

When they analyzed the genomes of proteobacteria, the family that spawned the ancestors of mitochondria, Lithgow’s team found two of the protein parts used in mitochondria to make TIM23.

The parts are located on bacterial cell membranes, making them ideally positioned for TIM23’s eventual protein-delivering role. Only one other part, a molecule called LivH, would make a rudimentary protein-transporting machine " and LivH is commonly found in proteobacteria.

The process by which parts accumulate until they’re ready to snap together is called preadaptation. It’s a form of “neutral evolution,” in which the buildup of the parts provides no immediate advantage or disadvantage. Neutral evolution falls outside the descriptions of Charles Darwin. But once the pieces gather, mutation and natural selection can take care of the rest, ultimately resulting in the now-complex form of TIM23.

“It hasn’t been possible up until this point to trace any of those proteins back to a bacterial ancestor,” said Dalhousie University cell biologist Michael Gray, one of the researchers who originally described the origins of mitochondria, but was not involved in the new study. “These three proteins don’t perform precisely the same function in proteobacteria, but with a simple mutation could be transformed into a simple protein transport machine that could start the whole thing off.”

“You look at cellular machines and say, why on earth would biology do anything like this? It’s too bizarre,” he said. “But when you think about it in a neutral evolutionary fashion, in which these machineries emerge before there’s a need for them, then it makes sense.”

Citation: “The reducible complexity of a mitochondrial molecular machine.” By Abigail Clements,1, Dejan Bursac, Xenia Gatsos, Andrew J. Perry, Srgjan Civciristova, Nermin Celik, Vladimir A. Likic, Sebastian Poggio, Christine Jacobs-Wagner, Richard A. Strugnell, and Trevor Lithgow. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Vol. 106 No. 33, August 25, 2009.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Aug, 2009 09:54 am
@wandeljw,
Great post -- nature and evolution have produced very bizarre results and that's not new, but to zero in on these strange natural evolutionary experiments does not prove anything but other than evolution in progress. If there was a designer, it's got to go back to design school and throw away the eraser. Is there a Celestial Bonehead Design 1 class?

It's eraser is apparently overactive today in tsunami's, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tornadoes and hurricanes, among other natural disasters (that's natural disasters!) and supposedly holds a whole hell of a lot of water in the mythology of the Great Flood.

It doesn't hold water today.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Aug, 2009 02:20 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Intricate cellular components are often cited as evidence of intelligent design. They couldn’t have evolved, I.D. proponents say, because they can’t be broken down into smaller, simpler functional parts. They are irreducibly complex, so they must have been intentionally designed, as is, by an intelligent entity.

But new research comparing mitochondria, which provide energy to animal cells, with their bacterial relatives, shows that the necessary pieces for one particular cellular machine " exactly the sort of structure that’s supposed to prove intelligent design " were lying around long ago. It was simply a matter of time before they came together into a more complex entity.


Proves nothing about irreducible complexity which is still at the stage Thales left it in about 600BC.

How can irreducible complexity have anything to do with some un-named "proponents" of ID. The un-named proponents are merely the straw man upon which that whole load of guff is delicately balanced.

You can tell it's guff as soon as you apply your much vaunted critical faculties to the expression "more complex entity". More complex goes nowhere near what Thales was on about. And it never will.

Brandon has proved he's no science or that he's taking the piss out of you. It's one or the other.

I'll bet effemm isn't daft enough to think much of his ideas.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Aug, 2009 02:31 pm
@wandeljw,
The whole subject of oxydative phosphorylation has been tied together with the development of living cells . I see that Venters crew is about ready to report on having formed "life" in a testube and their big problems were free living cells that provide energy in a preoxidative world.

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Aug, 2009 02:44 pm
@Lightwizard,
The funny thing about god's designs is that he penalized all of nature in addition to us homo sapiens for the sins of Adam and Eve. What did they do wrong? LOL
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Aug, 2009 05:05 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Get born.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 04:10 am
@Lightwizard,
Quote:
the only viable science library was at Alexandria and it was burned down.


Quote:
Conduct of the Goths at Athens
Another circumstance is related of these invasions which might deserve our notice, were it not justly to be suspected as the fanciful conceit of a recent sophist. We are told that in the sack of Athens the Goths had collected all the libraries, and were on the point of setting fire to this funeral pile of Grecian learning, had not one of their chiefs, of more refined policy than his brethren, dissuaded them from the design; by the profound observation that as long as the Greeks were addicted to the study of books, they could never apply themselves to the exercise of arms. The sagacious counsellor (should the truth of the fact be admitted) reasoned like an ignorant barbarian. In the most polite and powerful nations, genius of every kind has displayed itself about the same period; and the age of science has generally been the age of military virtue and success.


Edward Gibbon--The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

Schopenauer has something to say about the Alexandria library burning but I don't suppose LW reads that sort of thing. He prefers to simply mention these matters as if he knows all about them. He gets away with such gambits because his audience don't know anything about them either.

Anti-IDers use that trick all the time. They'll mention quantum mechanics in that way.

This is good as a way of setting a pile of straw on fire-

Quote:
the age of science has generally been the age of military virtue and success.


And for demonstrating that A2K's resident history expert hasn't bothered to read Gibbon.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 04:12 am
@spendius,
BTW LW--"Viable" is a biological term. It doesn't apply to inorganic matter such a libraries.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 04:52 am
@wandeljw,
Curiously, Im certain that the research that established these points was not undertaken specifically to counter the claims of the IDjits. I hope that there was a chain of applied research that actually made sense. I cannot see wasting one fuckin dime on countering IDjit claims. Id rather that they be trodden under the mounting evidence that investigates the structures of life.

I was always interested in the existence of mitochondria in certain species cells and how these mitochondria had not yet fully evolved into a fully functional group of intercell structures. For example, a cheetah has evolved a body style made for high sped running, Yet her mitochondria are not capacious enough for the cheetah to be able to run at such high speeds for more than maybe 10 or 15 seconds. So,is tha cheetah and example of an evolved lifestyle with body and internal structures still catching up?

The Impala, on the other hand can also travel in these bursts of high speed as it tries to escape capture. An impalas mitochondria allow it to run at blazing speeds (still not as high a top speed as a cheetah but close enough). So the mitochondria of many of the antelopes and deer are in line with the derived defense mechanism.

Is this a "red Queen" strategy in assembly?

The actual chain of the events in phosphorylation and respiration as presented by your article, clarifies the whole shmegeggy.


The miktochondria of certain fish are similrly caught in another stage of specieation but the fish has since evolved another lifestyle that requires either more or less energy "bursts". Certain of the bigger pelagic tuna are also gifted with diminutive mitochondria , so they are not able to carry out their bursts of speed for great distances. (and tuna are actually a kind of warm blooded fish)
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 05:25 am
The cautious, painstaking investigation of a shmegeggy, of course, being central to any credible scientific inquiry.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 07:03 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
I was always interested in the existence of mitochondria in certain species cells and how these mitochondria had not yet fully evolved into a fully functional group of intercell structures. For example, a cheetah has evolved a body style made for high sped running, Yet her mitochondria are not capacious enough for the cheetah to be able to run at such high speeds for more than maybe 10 or 15 seconds. So,is tha cheetah and example of an evolved lifestyle with body and internal structures still catching up?

The Impala, on the other hand can also travel in these bursts of high speed as it tries to escape capture. An impalas mitochondria allow it to run at blazing speeds (still not as high a top speed as a cheetah but close enough). So the mitochondria of many of the antelopes and deer are in line with the derived defense mechanism.


Are you sure it's the mitochondria themselves which are different between these species, or is it simply the density of mitochondria within their cells which is different?

There have been recent studies on mice where certain hormones result in an increased density of mitochondria in their muscles, making a much leaner and more energetic mouse. I'll try to find the article.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 08:03 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Id rather that they be trodden under the mounting evidence that investigates the structures of life.


That's fair enough so long as you dismiss social structures of human life as being irrelevant. In which case there is no science at all. How can you have science without human social structures coming first. Science is a baby of human social structures. As is music. As is everything outside of those biological imperatives which have not been influenced by social structures. Such as spewing up your last three pints of beer.

This is a thread concerned with social structures as its title makes clear.

Quote:
Yet her mitochondria are not capacious enough for the cheetah to be able to run at such high speeds for more than maybe 10 or 15 seconds.


Same with everything I should think. That's why the world 400m record is more than 4 times the 100m record.

Quote:
. So,is tha cheetah and example of an evolved lifestyle with body and internal structures still catching up?


The way things are going effemm, the cheetahs of the future will be fed butcher's meat in cages or fenced parks. So they are probably at their peak now if we assume that the human race will continue on the path it has been going and bearing in mind how slow evolution's processes are. I can see us providing polar bear feeding stations at some point so that the Nature programmers can carry on filming them in the wild gambolling about in the snow.

So I think cheetahs will slow down. The cheetahs of the future will probably be more evolved to look prettier in the eyes of animal lovers. Like dogs have been. I've seen wild dogs. You wouldn't have one of them in the house I shoudn't think.

Attenborough got close to having a bit of a thing for a gorilla a few years back and it did his career no end of good. If he did go all the way, like with LBJ, they cut it off the end of the film. Not that I'm suggesting for a moment that he did but he was doing the same sort of thing one does with a rotund £nglish Rose on top of a haystack on a summer's evening and the church bells are ringing in the distance to call decent folk to their prayin' and singin' and that does go all the way because no self respecting pink chubby £nglish Rose would climb up a ladder on a haystack in her Morris Dancing kit for any other reason than to get shagged.

He is quite a wit is Sir David. Well- he used to be before he got this saving the earth shite into his head. There's some size missing link between a species which is concerned to save the earth and all the rest of creation which never gives the earth a thought. A quantum leap. And derived from human social structures.

Intelligent design comes out of social structures. It is a latecomer on the scene. 2,000 years is a tick of the clock at Darwin's game. Religion is far,far older than this new fangled Intelligent Designer.

I wouldn't like readers here to think that your investigators of the "structures of life" are to be given the last word if they put human social structures on Ignore and restrict their investigations to those structures they think they understand. And certainly not when human social structures are the subject of this thread which has nothing to do with the limited investigations of your investigators. They can have the last word in their own world.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 08:05 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
There have been recent studies on mice where certain hormones result in an increased density of mitochondria in their muscles, making a much leaner and more energetic mouse. I'll try to find the article.


Google The Synthesis of Viagra.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 08:37 am
Someone needs a dictionary again:

VIable (Merriam-Webster)

3 a : capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately <viable alternatives> b : capable of existence and development as an independent unit <the colony is now a viable state> c (1) : having a reasonable chance of succeeding <a viable candidate> (2) : financially sustainable <a viable enterprise>

Not everything was in Schopenauer and Gibbon -- what science is evident in the library at Athens. Since Schopenauer, there has surfaced a sufficient amount of historic evidence that the library of Alexandria contained a remarkable scientific and historic body of work. There's virtually nothing revealed about what was actually in the library at Athens.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 08:50 am
April, 2994

Library of Alexandria discovered
By Dr David Whitehouse
BBC News Online science editor

Archaeologists have found what they believe to be the site of the Library of Alexandria, often described as the world's first major seat of learning.

A Polish-Egyptian team has excavated parts of the Bruchion region of the Mediterranean city and discovered what look like lecture halls or auditoria.

Two thousand years ago, the library housed works by the greatest thinkers and writers of the ancient world.

Works by Plato and Socrates and many others were later destroyed in a fire.

Oldest University

Announcing their discovery at a conference being held at the University of California, Zahi Hawass, president of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities, said that the 13 lecture halls uncovered could house as many as 5,000 students in total.

A conspicuous feature of the rooms, he said, was a central elevated podium for the lecturer to stand on.

"It is the first time ever that such a complex of lecture halls has been uncovered on any Greco-Roman site in the whole Mediterranean area," he added.

"It is perhaps the oldest university in the world."

Professor Wileke Wendrich, of the University of California, told BBC News Online that the discovery was incredibly impressive.

Alexandria was a major seat of learning in ancient times and regarded by some as the birthplace of western science.


Birthplace of geometry

It was a tiny fishing village on the Nile delta called Rhakotis when Alexander the Great chose it as the site of the new capital of his empire.

It was made Egypt's capital in 320 BC and soon became the most powerful and influential city in the region.

Its rulers built a massive lighthouse at Pharos, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, and the famed Library of Alexandria.

It was at the library that Archimedes invented the screw-shaped water pump that is still in use today.

At Alexandria Eratosthenes measured the diameter of the Earth, and Euclid discovered the rules of geometry.

Ptolemy wrote the Almagest at Alexandria. It was the most influential scientific book about the nature of the Universe for 1,500 years.

The library was later destroyed, possibly by Julius Caesar who had it burned as part of his campaign to conquer the city.

End of quote

Italics and bold are mine -- someone is either uninformed, mired in old historic accounts, or just plain stupid.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 08:58 am
The Ancient Library of Alexandria
April 23, 2009 by
Laura Tiedemann

The ancient Library of Alexandria was among the supreme institutions of learning in the ancient world, if not the absolute greatest. Before it was destroyed, it housed all sorts of scholarly works, reference materials and philosophical manuscripts. The destruction of this magnificent collection is among the greatest losses the literary world has ever suffered.

The Library of Alexandria housed some of the most important documents of its age. Among them were works by Sophocles, Euripides, Aeschylus, and Homer. The contents of the library covered everything known to the Ancient Greeks. Some of these topics were mathematics, Astronomy, Maps of Heaven, Schemes of the Universe, Geometry, Medicine, Applied Science, Calculations of the Circumference of the Earth, and more. The entire library was written on papyrus scrolls. Some estimate the size of the library at over half a million scrolls. Much of the library was preserved in private collections long after the destruction.

The Library of Alexandria was probably founded in the beginning of the third century, B.C., although an exact date has never been known. Throughout the years, several attacks were made upon it. In 48 B.C., Caesar burned it down. Some scholars say this atrocity was an accident, though others argue it was intentional. In the third century, Aurelian attacked it. The decree of Theophilus in 391 may have been a cause for it's ultimate destruction. Others argue it was the Muslim conquest of 642 that ended the Library. The world may never know for sure exactly which of these events led to the final desecration.

The entire world suffered when the Ancient Library of Alexandria fell. Hopefully the world will never again lose such a precious collection of math, science, medicine and all that this wonderful Library housed. Though the exact cause of it's ultimate destruction may never be known, it is a sad fact that some of the greatest works in the ancient world were destroyed and will never again be available.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Aug, 2009 09:05 am
History Articles

The Burning of the Library of Alexandria
by Preston Chesser

The loss of the ancient world's single greatest archive of knowledge, the Library of Alexandria, has been lamented for ages. But how and why it was lost is still a mystery. The mystery exists not for lack of suspects but from an excess of them.

Alexandria was Ptolemy'sfounded in Egypt by Alexander the Great. His successor as Pharaoh, Ptolomy II Soter, founded the Museum or Royal Library of Alexandria in 283 BC. The Museum was a shrine of the Muses modeled after the Lyceum of Aristotle in Athens. The Museum was a place of study which included lecture areas, gardens, a zoo, and shrines for each of the nine muses as well as the Library itself. It has been estimated that at one time the Library of Alexandria held over half a million documents from Assyria, Greece, Persia, Egypt, India and many other nations. Over 100 scholars lived at the Museum full time to perform research, write, lecture or translate and copy documents. The library was so large it actually had another branch or "daughter" library at the Temple of Serapis.

The first person blamed for the destruction of the Library is none other than Julius Caesar himself. In 48 BC, Caesar was pursuing Pompey into Egypt when he was suddenly cut off by an Egyptian fleet at Alexandria. Greatly outnumbered and in enemy territory, Caesar ordered the ships in the harbor to be set on fire. The fire spread and destroyed the Egyptian fleet. Unfortunately, it also burned down part of the city - the area where the great Library stood. Caesar wrote of starting the fire in the harbor but neglected to mention the burning of the Library. Such an omission proves little since he was not in the habit of including unflattering facts while writing his own history. But Caesar was not without public detractors. If he was solely to blame for the disappearance of the Library it is very likely significant documentation on the affair would exist today.

The second story of the Library's destruction is more popular, thanks primarily to Edward Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire". But the story is also a tad more complex. Theophilus was Patriarch of Alexandria from 385 to 412 AD. During his reign the Temple of Serapis was converted into a Christian Church (probably around 391 AD) and it is likely that many documents were destroyed then. The Temple of Serapis was estimated to hold about ten percent of the overall Library of Alexandria's holdings. After his death, his nephew Cyril became Patriarch. Shortly after that, riots broke out when Hierax, a Christian monk, was publicly killed by order of Orestes the city Prefect. Orestes was said to be under the influence of Hypatia, a female philosopher and daughter of the "last member of the Library of Alexandria". Although it should be noted that some count Hypatia herself as the last Head Librarian.

Alexandria had long been known for it's violent and volatile politics. Christians, Jews and Pagans all lived together in the city. One ancient writer claimed that there was no people who loved a fight more than those of Alexandria. Immediately after the death of Hierax a group of Jews who had helped instigate his killing lured more Christians into the street at night by proclaiming that the Church was on fire. When the Christians rushed out the largely Jewish mob slew many of them. After this there was mass havoc as Christians retaliated against both the Jews and the Pagans - one of which was Hypatia. The story varies slightly depending upon who tells it but she was taken by the Christians, dragged through the streets and murdered.

Some regard the death of Hypatia as the final destruction of the Library. Others blame Theophilus for destroying the last of the scrolls when he razed the Temple of Serapis prior to making it a Christian church. Still others have confused both incidents and blamed Theophilus for simultaneously murdering Hypatia and destroying the Library though it is obvious Theophilus died sometime prior to Hypatia.

The final individual to get blamed for the destruction is the Moslem Caliph Omar. In 640 AD the Moslems took the city of Alexandria. Upon learning of "a great library containing all the knowledge of the world" the conquering general supposedly asked Caliph Omar for instructions. The Caliph has been quoted as saying of the Library's holdings, "they will either contradict the Koran, in which case they are heresy, or they will agree with it, so they are superfluous." So, allegedly, all the texts were destroyed by using them as tinder for the bathhouses of the city. Even then it was said to have taken six months to burn all the documents. But these details, from the Caliph's quote to the incredulous six months it supposedly took to burn all the books, weren't written down until 300 years after the fact. These facts condemning Omar were written by Bishop Gregory Bar Hebræus, a Christian who spent a great deal of time writing about Moslem atrocities without much historical documentation.

So who did burn the Library of Alexandria? Unfortunately most of the writers from Plutarch (who apparently blamed Caesar) to Edward Gibbons (a staunch atheist or deist who liked very much to blame Christians and blamed Theophilus) to Bishop Gregory (who was particularly anti-Moslem, blamed Omar) all had an axe to grind and consequently must be seen as biased. Probably everyone mentioned above had some hand in destroying some part of the Library's holdings. The collection may have ebbed and flowed as some documents were destroyed and others were added. For instance, Mark Antony was supposed to have given Cleopatra over 200,000 scrolls for the Library long after Julius Caesar is accused of burning it.

It is also quite likely that even if the Museum was destroyed with the main library the outlying "daughter" library at the Temple of Serapis continued on. Many writers seem to equate the Library of Alexandria with the Library of Serapis although technically they were in two different parts of the city.

The real tragedy of course is not the uncertainty of knowing who to blame for the Library's destruction but that so much of ancient history, literature and learning was lost forever.

Selected sources:
"The Vanished Library" by Luciano Canfora
"Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" by Edward Gibbons

End of article

On the top shelf in my library room:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0520072553.01.LZZZZZZZ.gif

Get out a credit card -- it's still available at Amazon.
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