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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 04:32 pm
@Lightwizard,
Quote:
What would Jesus say?


Which Jesus?

1A historical Jesus
2The Jesus of MArk
3The Jesus of Matthew and Luke
4The Jesus of all The Gospels that were , uh, not approved
5The "mixed nuts" Jesus of the Evangelicals
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 04:46 pm
@farmerman,
or jesus christ super star
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 04:56 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Which Jesus?


Which Obama?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Aug, 2009 08:31 am
@farmerman,
The hysterical Jesus as the whole political manipulation is a farce. First of all, take the election of a school board off the ballots. Nobody researches who these people are or what they stand for, they just vote like they are playing a game of darts in a pub after six schooners and hit the bulls-eye purely by chance.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 21 Aug, 2009 05:19 pm
@Lightwizard,
That's a pretty savage criticism of a superpower's mode of educating it's only hope for the future.

Are you sure you mean that LW or are you just venting off some pressure of your personal frustrations?
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 05:59 am
Quote:
Professor Richard Dawkins wants to convert Islamic world to evolution
(Mark Henderson, Science Editor, The Times, August 22, 2009)

The author of The God Delusion and The Selfish Gene, whose new book, The Greatest Show on Earth, is serialised in The Times next week, has topped bestseller lists all over the world but never in a predominantly Muslim country.

None of Professor Dawkins’ books, on evolution as well as religion, has ever been translated into Arabic, and his work has been heavily censored in Turkey. In an interview with The Times, he said that popularising evolution in the Islamic world, where creationist beliefs are strong, was a challenge he is keen to take up. “To be a bestseller in a Muslim country would be a personal triumph,” he said.

“I would like to see my books translated into Arabic. They haven’t been. They are all translated into Hebrew. Persian, I’m not sure. My books are translated into Turkish and they regularly get censored and suppressed.

“The experience of my Turkish publisher of The God Delusion was that he was threatened with arrest for blasphemy. He may even have been arrested, and my website has been banned in Turkey. I feel amused really. There’s something to be said for being suppressed, it makes people want to read you.”

While most non-fundamentalist Christian traditions have largely accepted evolution, Islam was still much more hostile, he said. “It’s the fact that Islam teaches the Koran is the literal word of God, unlike most Christian sects, which say the Bible is largely symbolic. That could well be the cause.”

Professor Dawkins added that Islamic influence is the likely explanation for the growing popularity of creationist beliefs in Britain, where a recent poll found that 30 per cent of teenagers accept the rebranded idea of “intelligent design”.

“I think that’s pretty clear,” he said. “I hear that from colleagues at the coalface of teaching. There has been a sharp upturn in hostility to teaching of evolution in the classroom and it’s mostly coming from Islamic students.

“It is nothing like as serious as it is in America, where the hostility comes from Christians, but the consequence can be very poor scientific education. When I go to schools, as I occasionally do, I do get depressed when I see children coming out as evolution deniers. I don’t think they would have 30 years ago.”

Professor Dawkins’ new book, The Greatest Show on Earth, brings together the scientific evidence that shows the theory of evolution to be true. He hopes to convince those who espouse creationism because they are ignorant of science.

“I suppose anybody who reads it should no longer be capable of thinking that the world is 6,000 years old, should no longer be capable of thinking evolution isn’t a fact,” he said. “I’d like to think there’s got to be something wrong with people who finish the book and don’t think that.”

Creationists, he said, were ignorant about evolution in the same sense in which he admits to being ignorant about football. “Ignorant is just a factual statement. I’m ignorant about football and all sorts of things. And I don’t think you’d take it as an insult if I said you seem to know anything about football. It’s actually just a factual statement, it means you don’t know anything about it.

“I know quite a lot about evolution, and there are plenty of people out there who know nothing about evolution and who probably would enjoy learning something about evolution. Perhaps they can teach me about football.”
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 06:28 am
Mr. Dawkins is his own worst enemy. It appears that diplomacy is not in his lexicon. The thought of him having a best seller in "the Islamic world" is ludicrous. Those jokers have even less of a sense of humor than do fundamentalist Christians.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 08:29 am
@Setanta,
I agree -- a scientist and politics don't mesh up any better than with religion in any kind of advocacy for "their side." Politics is likely the worst. This doesn't mean they can't testify in public hearings or a court action about the status and stance of a scientist, especially regarding evolution. What a magnanimous statement from Dawkins, but I have to state that fundamentalist Christians I have met have no sense of humor so does this put Dawkins in negative territory, like anti-humor? Is he confusing humor with gravity?

The world doesn't need any lunatic admitted atheists fighting on the side of science anymore than it needs lunatic fundamentalist Christians trying to pass off ID, or any other concept which has at its' base the myth of Creationism as a science. Science is as take-it-or-leave it as religion. If scientists want to attract rational, logical minds, it can't be done by leading the horse to water, anesthetizing it and then forcing water down it's throat.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 08:43 am
@Lightwizard,
That's very funny LW. What are you on?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 09:03 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Mr. Dawkins is his own worst enemy.


He seems to be doing very well for himself to me. He's stretched a modicum of talent further than most people can manage. And three wives too.

I can't think why Set would make such a ridiculous assertion. Mr Dawkins has managed his career very well and it is reasonable to assume he knows what he's doing by now. I hope they don't declare a Fatwah on him though. But perhaps he fancies 24 hour protection from a team of highly paid officers what with having two ex-wives on the loose.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 07:31 am
Quote:
Reasonable Doubt: Creating a stir by supporting science
(By JIM GAINES, The Bowling Green Daily News, August 23, 2009)

All the furor started with a seemingly simple question: What should be taught in public school science classes?

Science, obviously. But it quickly became clear that many people are hazy on what science actually is, especially biological science; and how it differs from moral allegories in religious texts.

A monument to this confusion, and abettor in its deliberate perpetuation, is the “Creation Museum” in Petersburg, run by Ken Ham of Answers In Genesis. I toured it with biology professor P.Z. Myers and a large skeptical group, and found the exhibits bogus, full of holes and often pointing to ludicrous conclusions.

Pointing that out drew the heaviest response I’ve gotten in 21/2 years of writing this column. So far, I’ve seen three angry letters, one criticizing my style of argument (but, unsurprisingly, not mentioning the inflammatory rhetoric of letters denouncing me), and one long personal plea for my soul. The last was nice, but misguided - the writer unintentionally makes one of my major points for me: That the anger stems not from real debates over the search for scientific facts, but from fear that those facts might discredit particular moral beliefs.

The positive reaction, however, has far outweighed the negative. Now a couple of supportive letters have come in, and I’ve heard personally from about a dozen local residents and frequent readers, all positive. I’d like to thank them all.

Both my column and some of the printed reaction have made the rounds of the Internet, drawing about 40 brief comments from across the United States and Canada. All of those have supported the column.

Of course, popularity is no guarantee of correctness. That’s why I view with a skeptical eye any claim unsupported by testable evidence. I don’t reject everything else outright, but unsupported or contested claims are, at best, to be treated with caution and hedged about with qualifications.

A few of my readers, however, have no such reservation about making wild charges.

For criticizing Ken Ham, I am accused of “attacking Christianity and all who believe the Bible is the inspired word of God.”

I must apologize. I did not realize that Ken Ham was numbered among the prophets, or that his cartoonish interpretation of the Bible was accepted as, well, gospel by the 2 billion or so Christians on the planet. If that was true, however, one would think his attendance numbers would be a bit higher. Where else can you go see a prophet nowadays?

Seriously, though, I’m very tired of seeing crackpots like Ham hide behind respectable Christians, claiming that they’re all being persecuted because one person making ludicrous assertions also claims to be a Christian.

Doing so begs the question: What does it mean to be a Christian?

Most people assume that the definition is obvious. But anyone can claim to be a Christian, and many very strange people do. Sun Mung-Moon does. The Holocaust Museum shooter does.

And so does Fred Phelps, the ranting lunatic who pickets soldiers’ funerals because he thinks we don’t stone enough gay people to death. In fact, Phelps runs his own church, Westboro Baptist in Topeka, Kan.; just like Ken Ham, he claims to be doing God’s work.

Would anyone like to tell me that anyone who denounces Phelps’ hysterical bigotry is also “attacking Christianity?”

Yet Phelps and Ham are actually doing the same thing, trying to hide their absurdities in the Bible’s aura of sanctity. They both quote biblical verses in their own defense. Phelps is rejected by the larger Christian community because his idiocies are more publicly offensive than Ham’s, but their method is the same.

The apostle Paul said that Christians are justified by faith; that’s all well and good, but your neighbors can’t see faith itself. So the standard Jesus himself set, in Matthew 7:15-23, was what results come from that faith. At that point, he specifically denounces those who speak in his name yet “bring forth evil fruit.”

If someone says to me, “I’m a Christian, which means I think we should all be kind to one another, as Jesus taught,” then I reply, “That’s fine. In fact, that’s admirable.”

But if they say, “I’m a Christian, which requires me to believe that Jesus rode around Galilee on a pet dinosaur,” my reply is, “That’s ridiculous.”

And if they maintain, in line with Ham’s museum, that God doesn’t mind men having sex with their younger sisters so long as they can avoid having children with birth defects, I have said and will continue to say, “That’s revolting.”

And I’m far from alone on this. The National Center for Science Education posts a long list of endorsements from major religious groups, all supporting the teaching of actual science - evolution - in science classes.

About 230 million Americans identify themselves as Christians, and organizations representing more than one-third of those people accept that the scientific evidence for natural selection does not cause a conflict with their religious faith. So, really, Saint Ham and his flock have much bigger problems than annoyingly rational newspaper columnists. One Christian in three is, by Ham’s standards, out to corrupt the faith from within.

I am told by one reader that there is “much scientific evidence out there in favor of creationism.” Well, that “evidence” is exactly what the Creation Museum purports to show. I’ve already mentioned a few - just a few - of the gaping holes in its narrative. But if you don’t grasp those, how about outright falsehoods?

Example: One of the signs narrating Christian history says Roman Emperor Diocletian ordered “burning of all Bibles.”

No he didn’t.

Diocletian oversaw a haphazard persecution of Christians from 299 to 303. But the Bible upon which Answers In Genesis relies so utterly did not exist at that time. Most churches used the Old Testament, by then well-established; but the New Testament had not been settled. There was no general agreement on which books were authoritative, and there were dozens of other contenders, now lost or forgotten. The first compilation naming only the books now accepted as canonical dates from 64 years after Diocletian’s persecution ended, and a church council didn’t confirm that for 25 further years.

In most other contexts, this may seem a minor point, but for a “museum” based on the absolute literal truth of a specific set of texts, the inability to accurately describe that collection’s history and contents is a startling gaffe.

They’re no better on philosophy. One exhibit attributes the statement “Man is the measure of all things” to Rene Descartes. Nope, that was Protagoras, who died 2,000 years before Descartes was born.

One letter-writer says my “statements about our beliefs regarding creationism were often incomplete, inaccurate, totally misconstrued, or at best misunderstood.”

Look, I recited what the museum itself says. I’ve got pictures of the exhibits and accompanying signs. Go and look for yourself. You’ll see the same thing.

But take your wallet. Traveling with P.Z. Myers’ group, I got the group rate of only $10. Normally, Ken Ham charges $21.95 per person. And for that price, all you get is the spectacle of Hamites perverting the Bible into something it’s not: a science book instead of a moral guide.

I also got the old argument that it takes as much faith to accept scientific conclusions as it does to believe in religious assertions. This demonstrates a feeble grasp of the nature of science.

One of the foundations of rational, empirical investigation is that anyone is, theoretically, able to check the facts for themselves. That’s why scientific research is published in detail, though few except scientists themselves read the technical journals wherein such results are laid out for critique. While complex genetic experiments and archaeological investigations are beyond the reasonable ability of most people, real scientists’ conclusions are repeatedly verified by numerous researchers, often rivals seeking to best one anothers’ work, not find agreement.

Evolution is scientifically accepted because it has withstood 150 years of that criticism, and only grown stronger as more research has been done.

“Creation science” has does none of this. It starts from an unquestioned text, ignores discordant evidence, mangles its textual foundation to conform to what remains, and then ... just stops asking. Any contradictions? It’s a miracle, now shut up. Any unexplained lapses in your story? Goddidit. Quit thinking about it, or you’ll be numbered among the heathen.

And yet creationists claim that scientists do exactly the same thing to them, “persecuting” or “censoring” creationist arguments. But the dozen or so standard creationist arguments are now given short shrift because they, unlike evolution, did not stand up to careful scrutiny. Although they were discredited a century ago, most who now argue for a 6,000-year-old Earth have never bothered to learn that background before presenting those old arguments again.

When the blatant inconsistencies in Ham’s museum are pointed out, the standard cop-out is to write them off as miracles. It was all God’s handiwork, after all; so it can’t be expected to match what’s now understood of natural laws.

But the point of the Creation Museum is to argue that the Genesis story is real science, and conforms to scientific standards. You can’t have it both ways. It can’t be a law-violating miracle and perfectly logical at the same time.

That’s why creationism is not science, and hence doesn’t belong in science classes. The Bible’s moral message and spiritual message has nothing to do with genetics or geology, and that message is not diluted by realizing that Genesis is just as allegorical as Jesus’ parables. Are those rendered worthless by not listing the names and addresses of their hypothetical participants?
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 03:41 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Quote:
Reasonable Doubt: Creating a stir by supporting science
(By JIM GAINES, The Bowling Green Daily News, August 23, 2009)

Seriously, though, I’m very tired of seeing crackpots like Ham hide behind respectable Christians, claiming that they’re all being persecuted because one person making ludicrous assertions also claims to be a Christian.

Doing so begs the question: What does it mean to be a Christian?


Maybe the "respectable Christians" need to speak out and be heard so that the crackpots aren't seen as speaking for "Christianity" as a whole.

The trouble is that too many mainstream Christians still feel that the Bible should be taught in school, so they are happy to let the fundamentalists push their agenda into schools, even if they don't see eye to eye on what Christianity is all about.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 08:42 am
UK UPDATE
Quote:
'Creationist' zoo causes dismay
(BBC News, August 27, 2009)

The British Humanist Association (BHA) says Noah's Ark Zoo Farm undermines the teaching of science.

Signs at the zoo in Wraxhall describe how the "three great people groups" could be descended from the three sons of Bible ark builder Noah.

A spokeswoman for the zoo said they viewed the natural world as a product of both God and evolution.

Another sign at the zoo says animals hunt and kill food because "man rebelled against God".

The zoo's website also explicitly rejects Darwinism, describing it as "flawed", and claims scientists are afraid to talk about "design" in the natural world.

BHA education officer Paul Pettinger visited the zoo at the end of July.

He said: "I found lots of creationist and pseudo-scientific beliefs.

"They ask you to pray for animals, and so on.

"We're very concerned because it will undermine education and the teaching of science."

The BHA is calling on tourism boards to stop promoting the zoo.

But Noah's Ark's owner Anthony Bush says his zoo simply presents a variety of views, one of which is creationist.

Many creationists take a literal interpretation of the Bible's description of the origin of life and reject the Darwinian concept of evolution.

"I think God created life. I have no idea when," said the former Evangelical preacher.

"There's a lot of people who believe in Genesis who don't want to come out of the woodwork, but they don't want to come out of the closet because of the thought police."

A spokeswoman for the zoo said: "We hold a view that the natural world around us is the product of both God and evolution.

"Although technically creationists, we do not hold the stereotypical creationist views that the world was created in 6,000 years and there is no evolution."

Tourism body Visit England has said it only checks the zoo under its Visitor Quality Assurance Scheme and has no opinion on content.

The zoo is visited by 120,000 people every year, including members of school parties.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 09:19 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
The British Humanist Association (BHA) says Noah's Ark Zoo Farm undermines the teaching of science.


So what? Are we all supposed to go weak at the knees?

Quote:
Signs at the zoo in Wraxhall describe how the "three great people groups" could be descended from the three sons of Bible ark builder Noah.


That's fair enough. The signs only claimed they "could" be. A good science teacher could use that to explain how the word "could" can be used so that the kids could watch out for it in science programmes and news items about scientific breakthroughs.

Quote:
A spokeswoman for the zoo said they viewed the natural world as a product of both God and evolution.


There are a lot of people who agree with that.

Quote:
Another sign at the zoo says animals hunt and kill food because "man rebelled against God".


That's a bit far fetched I'll admit.

Quote:
BHA education officer Paul Pettinger visited the zoo at the end of July.

He said: "I found lots of creationist and pseudo-scientific beliefs.


Well he would seeing as that is why he went there instead of going for a game of golf.

Quote:
"They ask you to pray for animals, and so on.


When I saw a boatload of cattle be dehorned with a boltcutter for the ride from Australia to Indonesion I felt like praying for the poor fuckers.

Quote:
"We're very concerned because it will undermine education and the teaching of science."


He in the business of being "very concerned" isn't he? He would have little of interest to say otherwise and then he couldn't get his name in the paper and drum up membership of the BHA and solicit legacies from those who share his concern.

Quote:
The BHA is calling on tourism boards to stop promoting the zoo.


That should make them laugh in the tourist boards and the shops in proximity to the Zoo Park and the councils who collect business rates off them and car park fees and a few other things a simple bloke like me can't think of.

Quote:
Many creationists take a literal interpretation of the Bible's description of the origin of life and reject the Darwinian concept of evolution.


You can learn how to write a vacuum of vapidity from that sentence.

Quote:
A spokeswoman for the zoo said: "We hold a view that the natural world around us is the product of both God and evolution.


We've had that before. Are they short of material?

It's a real worry that the spokesparsons for science are niggardly in showing us any of their literary skills.

Will we all end up sounding like Speak Your Weight machines if we buy into their ideas?

You have to pull strings to get an item like that on the BBC News.


wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 09:25 am
@spendius,
This makes me feel perverse, but I actually agree with spendi's post.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 04:51 pm
@wandeljw,
Who are "the thought police?" Are literal creationists afraid they will get arrested, get a ticket, or just being let off with a warning? If they have a fear of being judged, perhaps they should stop passing judgement.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 05:14 pm
@Lightwizard,
We all know you never do that LW.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 06:32 pm
@spendius,
Spendis comments sound like a weak ass capitulation to an evidence free world. We have a similar situation where at the Grand Canyon the Bush Administrations "war on SCience" had resulted in tnhe publishing and dissemination of a stupid Creationist view of the Canyon. Everything therein is easily debunked by the evcidence, as is "The races of man descending from the sons of Noah aboard the ARK"
That is so stupid from an outset that its not even worth considering .

Quote:
It's a real worry that the spokesparsons for science are niggardly in showing us any of their literary skills.
The same thing occurs when Bob Dylan shows us no knowledge of Quantum Mechanics.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 06:44 pm
@farmerman,
I thought spendi was saying that the humanist association was making a big deal out of nothing. If a zoo is called "Noah's Ark" you can automatically assume that they are trying to give sunday school lessons.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 06:50 pm
@farmerman,
They still don't believe that all our ancestors emerged out of Africa, even with DNA proof. How many ways can christians rationalize all the contradictions between science and the bible?
 

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