ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 07:17 pm
@ossobuco,
So, in 1600 in New Orleans, they didn't build on a hill?
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 07:27 pm
@edgarblythe,
I have two hurrican stories, edgar. When I was about 6 or 7, we lived on Carolina Place in Alexandria VA, a near in suburb of DC. A long street ending in a circle. Perhaps 20 houses, owned, for the most part, by military officers and diplomats. My parents, in fact, bought our house from a member of Congress who had been defeated for re-election by a guy named Richard Nixon.
Anyway, hurricane Hazel came through. Dead on over DC. It was pretty ferocious, as I recall. But what is still one of my most vivid memories is when the eye of Hazel passed over. Everyone came out of those houses and stood in the middle of street, marveling at how for a few minutes, it had become so damn still.
Have any of yall experienced the eye of a hurricane?
Then we all went home and experienced the rest of the storm.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 07:27 pm
@mismi,
Better, of course, for another thread, and I think I tried to start one once, about architectural and engineering fixes for both new buildings and older buildings in hurricane territory. I still think it would be a good idea, whether re Florida, New Orleans, Galveston, Baja, or many other places. I'm interested in roof bracing, foundation securing, and so on, possibly just with steel connectors... or anything else. As I remember, Panzade knows some things about all this.
After the anger in this thread subsides, or even if not, I'd like to try that again.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 07:30 pm
@JPB,
Always good to see you JPB.

We know things we didn't know 400 years ago. Among these things is that every so often Mother Nature is going to drown low lying areas like Galveston and New Orleans. We know bigger levies will serve only to keep the water in and drown people like rats in the event a CAT-5 makes a direct hit. Short of spending a Trillion dollars on something like the North Sea Wall; this WILL come up again... and again... and again.

While I understand your personal feelings towards the people who wish to live in the danger zone; your Argumentum ad antiquitatem (the argument to antiquity or tradition) does nothing to give the argument merit. Just over a century ago; some 10,000 people died in Galveston. It isn't logical to pretend we don't know that given enough time, storms like that and worse (much worse) will strike again. It is a near ecological certainty.

I've lived on the water and consider it a privilege worth paying for. Options for payment should include Insurance if you can find it or straight gambling if you can afford it; but it should not include Mr. and Mrs. Jones rebuilding for you each and every time Mother Nature predictably blows your house down. After all; Mr. and Mrs. Jones aren't allowed to share in the luxury of waterfront living when the storm isn't destroying it.

If it is cheaper for Mr. and Mrs. Jones to assist in moving them; haven’t they done enough? I don’t think they should have to support someone else’s superior lifestyle.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 07:46 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Often people in lowlands don't have superior lifestyle.. see bangladesh, new orleans. But.. the levies were shitty and they still are, and fixing the levies momentarily or for a few years doesn't fix the delta.
OCCOM BILL
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 07:57 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

Often people in lowlands don't have superior lifestyle.. see bangladesh, new orleans. But.. the levies were shitty and they still are, and fixing the levies momentarily or for a few years doesn't fix the delta.
Nor do economically feasible levies do more than make a CAT-5 Storm laugh and/or serve to hold the water in when the storm surge is taller than the levies.

Don't dismiss the lifestyle thing too fast either. Closer to the water makes you cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter (10 degrees worth in 10 miles in Palm Beach) than people living in identical neighborhoods inland. In a hot climate; this is a luxury. To say nothing of the water access and natural beauty.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 08:01 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Agreed, though that gets complicated. Much of modern gang warfare started in Venice by the sea, part of LA, and the interior of that neighborhood, a mere few blocks from the beach, has resisted gentrification, only slowly over decades bending to it. I've read some about Rio, and think there are troubled neighborhoods by the shore.. but never mind shore, we're talking lowlands, flood prone places. The poor have gathered where others wouldn't build, so many places.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 08:08 pm
@ossobuco,
Back to Gustav.. hoping good for all a2kers, and, well, everybody else.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 08:34 pm
@mismi,
mis, edgar, mac, and anyone else in the potential path of this or any future storm... be well, be safe.

Bill, I'm agreeing here with you, squinney, and rockhead that folks choose where to live and that nature does what nature will do. Saying that Mr and Mrs Jones (if by that you mean you and me as taxpayers), who are responsible for much of the current reality in certain areas, should get to call for the bulldozers when they were wrong to begin with and displace hundreds of thousands of people (New Orleans is currently at 75% of the pre-Katrina population of over 400,000 people) is simply wrong.

No one in the delta that I know, and I know many, think government intervention is a viable answer. There are numerous grass-route efforts to reclaim the delta and the natural barriers that it provided. Katrina was a disaster that took it's toll on millions of people across many of the gulf states. Most of the fatalities in New Orleans were due to the break in the levies, not to hurricane force winds. Natural disasters have, and will, take additional tolls. Mr and Mrs Jones don't get to shrug and say better luck next time.

Everyone chooses where they live. Sometimes Mr and Mrs Jones are a detriment to that choice. Once Mr and Mrs Jones have screwed up, they don't get to say that those in the fallout should be displaced.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 08:40 pm
@JPB,
The levies for sure and the levies again.




To squinney on florida - there is a lot of mobile home housing in florida, which is a particular worry. Panz and I talked about that at some point (my inlaws lived in a mobile home village and I may some day myself), re shoring up the structures, me talking about steel connectors and him saying, ''pah, sheer is the problem", or so I remember. I'm still interested in a workable solution (some kind of corner to corner ties plus foundation ties? what?) and it would probably apply to manufactured homes in all hurricane zones if someone could come up with it.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 08:58 pm
@realjohnboy,
rjb
I have been in the eye of two hurricanes - Alicia and Celia. It's an awesome thing to see the calm in the midst of fury.
I worked at the PPG chemical plant in Corpus Christi, when Celia bore down on us. It hit the shoreline at four PM. The plant sent us home at four PM. My car went sliding sideways at times. Power lines were on the verge of coming down. Torrents of rain. I was lucky to arrive at all. The house next door, still under construction, came apart. We watched across a field three people trying to hold their carport down. It lasted for hours. I can't recall how long we were without power. Less than a week, I think. I was young enough to find it exciting, rather than frightening.
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 09:17 pm
@edgarblythe,
http://abclocal.go.com/three/ktrk/WWW_G_TRACK_full.JPG
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 09:33 pm
@edgarblythe,
Yikes.
0 Replies
 
mac11
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 09:38 pm
http://icons-pe.wunderground.com/data/images/at200807_model.gif
Izzie
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 09:47 pm
@mac11,
Hey Mac....

How are you? How close are you to the shoreline hun?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 09:55 pm
@edgarblythe,
I was just watching one of the NOAA people on CNN. Apparently, by 5 a.m. tomorrow, they should have a fairly clear idea of the actual path - something to do with upside down weather balloons?
0 Replies
 
mac11
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 09:58 pm
@Izzie,
Hi Izzie! I'm not at all close to the shore, though maybe 40 miles closer than edgar is. I'm not worried much about Gustav, just keeping an eye on him.

I'll move my car to higher ground if we get a direct hit, but I'll be fine.
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 10:03 pm
@edgarblythe,
Sunday. 7 p.m. A category 4 in mid-gulf. We will, I hope, suspend the discussion about urban planning and things related for the duration of this.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 10:12 pm
@realjohnboy,
Agreed, Johnboy, and I apologize for my avidity on it. Alas, it - and bracing, shoring up, etc. - only seem to come up as a discussion at these times. Same with earthquake and fire and tornado times.

But I agree I'm out of place, and apologize.
0 Replies
 
Izzie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 10:19 pm
@mac11,
Pleased to hear it.....

Ooooh... will need to be doing a ship's "batten down the hatches" before long... gosh, must be so worrying for everyone - we just don't have these extreme weather systems.

If I could.... would stand on the shoreline and talk for England - that would produce enough hot air to turn it on it's tail. Wink

Stay safe everyone. x
0 Replies
 
 

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