I find it hard to believe that someone who has compassion could defend celebrations of murder.
We didn't celebrate the murders of the Hussien brothers, and they were vile, nasty killers, themselves. Why don't the deaths of innocent civilians rate the same deference as the deaths of Usay and Oday? Why won't anyone else here say it is wrong and indefensible? How has the celebration of 911 become politicised? Isn't anything just considered wrong?
So, okay. They have a right to celebrate murder, and some think they have justification. Grant me the right to consider those celebrants mortal enemies.
when a bunch of drunks murdered 100's of Arapahoe and Cheyenne women and children and paraded up and down the streets of Denver displaying the cut off breasts and genitals of their victims, the people lined the streets to cheer them on.
Should I expect Hobitbob to defend that, and say we are naive because we don't understand the mindset of the drunks?
Why is one different than the other?
Sofia - I do not find the celebration of people's deaths right.
To most of us, September 11th was an act of terror. To some it was a victory in a war they consider legitimate.
People all over the world celebrate various victories - or have. I have seen scenes of jubilation filmed when news of the successful detonation of the bomb at Hiroshima came. Doubtless there was celebration at the successful bombing of Dresden. Remember the cheers when the "smart bombs" were displayed in all their photogenic glory in Iraq I.
I do not approve of extremist folk celebrating the deaths of 3,000 civiliansin NY City - one of whom, as it happened, was a friend - nor do I approve of the celebration of any act of war and destruction. Both are going to happen, though - and we tend to be way more tolerant of those celebrations held by "our" side.
Well, it was easy to agree with.
The only distinction I would add--is I wonder if those inferred American celebrations you mentioned were due to the end of horrible wars, rather than the deaths of civilians.
The war didn't end with the bombing of Dresden.
The British Air Marshall Arthur Harris, inventor of area bombing, ordered the action, btw.
The point, to me, is no matter who or where--celebrations of mass civilian death are sick and disgusting.
Sofia, I don't "approve" of the celebration in London, but I also don't "approve" of the way those on the far right applaud the deaths of Iraqi civilians, or the way some people at another forum crowed with glee over the death of Rachel Corrie. People are too fragile, too easy to kill for any sane person to celebrate death.
Now, having said that, I also think that in order to prevent violence, one must attempt to understand one's opponent. The typical American response of "They're just Arabs, they don't matter, war is awful, collateral damage, etc..." is no better than the attitude of the group in London. Sans understanding peace is impossible. And never doubt that I want peace. I am so tired of "victory."
I've never heard any American applaud the civilian deaths in Iraq. I have read some sad characterizations about Rachel Corrie, but no celebration.
Funny, but I do remember a lot of hooting and hollering in the street outside my window, people beeping their horns and waving flags, celebrating on the day we started massive bombing in Iraq. It's okay for us to kill thousands of innocent people (far more than WTC) and feel proud.
I also remember some of my friends staying at home, afraid to speak their own minds in public for many months, out of fear of being attacked and beaten. On the one hand it's patriotic and good, on the other hand it's offensive to whoever died or is hurt.
Which one is evil in the battle between A and B: party A or party B? They have their cause and we have ours. So damn what? Everyone is trying to defend themselves and have a decent life for their family. The violence won't stop by escalating it, or by each side demonizing the other. It won't make killing just, to cry foul when they score a hit but celebrate when we do. Every hit is a loss. Every piece of politicized spin and propaganda hurts us, because it removes us from the real situation.
I think everyone should "examine the driving force and motivation of the 19 men who partook in the [9/11] operation..." as well as the driving force behind our own leadership. Embrace the truth, no matter how repulsive, dingy, cynical and ruthless it is -- because at least then we'll be dealing with the situation and getting closer to understanding and knowing a real solution.
The devil is having a celebration? I want to be there! Not to spy, attack and hurt them, but to understand how we may end up the same way. When we find a way to avoid such activity ourselves, then maybe we could share the solution with them. Someday.
Sofia wrote:The point, to me, is no matter who or where--celebrations of mass civilian death are sick and disgusting.
Soldier deaths suck too. Never been sure why putting folk in uniforms makes a hell of a difference.
That must have been a weird experience. Hearing celebrations when we went to war.
It was somber and quiet here. Probably because so many of the young men and women in our part of the state were in harm's way. It was a very sad, frightening time.
I don't think celebrating war has anything to do with patriotism. Most of the 'flag flying' was a show of solidarity, unity in the face of attack and during wartime. It was a way to communicate with everyone around you that you were in this with them, and felt the way they did.
Never fear. I don't wave mine. The breeze waves it. I just fly it.
Guys, that group is a fringe group of idiots. Au got the story from a source with an agenda and posted it here because of his agenda.
Why make the idiocy of few an issue? Sofia you are preaching awareness and I am certain the intel community is aware and following it.
But the purpose of having more media coverage is simply incitement (which is, IMO, the reason au posted them here).
Extremism breeds extremism.
The people who celebrate such matters are disgusting. Don't let them bring out extremism in you.
More vapid opinion from CB:
The celebration in the streets was weird, and surreal. I've never feared Al-Queda violence as much as our own violence amongst ourselves. Understand, that I occasionally hear people describe how they go up and beat the crap out of a homeless person for no reason. Or put someone in the emergency room because of how they dress or how they talk.
Racism, classism and sexism hasn't gone away just because we have words and rules against them. I think it's important to recognize that there is no general rule when it comes to a country or a group of people. There are all kinds of opinions and experiences, just as diverse as the people who have them.
So when I display an American flag, I have no idea what kind of unity or solidarity it shows! Does it mean I am a patriot who is against government? Does it mean I blindly follow whatever the President says? Am I showing that I support the murder of strange people? Does it state that we should conquer the world? Does it mean I stand for freedom, capitalism, industrial might, abuse, usery, pride, greatness, humility, or peace? It's a very diverse country with 250 million different beliefs!
So to me it's the flag of the United States of America, nothing more and nothing less. Displaying the flag means "USA", nothing more and nothing less. Just "USA". USA. It doesn't indicate any emotion or concept beyond that, because we are not mindlessly one. We are diverse.
No one can tell me why I fly the American flag, and I can't presume to know what they actually support. It seems to me, any other reading besides "USA" is wishful thinking based on ones own agenda.
Sofia, as someone who was attacked by a group of frat rats in the aftermath of 11th September, who thought beating up an Arab was a good way to complete their evening, I have little sympathy for either side. I'm sure it was a lesson to thema s well...I came out on top. I also spent the night in Jail for it, because I am an Arab.
