1
   

CHILD PORN IMMORAL IF NO REAL CHILDREN INVOLVED ?

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jul, 2008 12:18 pm
Re: OmSigDAVID
DrewDad wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:
I shoud add that boys' mentalities are a lot more ROBUST
in matters of sexuality than r young girls.

(speaking as a former boy)

Quote:
Er.... are you saying that you're now a girl? Shocked

(most humorous)

I have now reached the stage in life
of being a fat, ugly old man.







Quote:
How would you know if boys' mentalities are more robust,
if you're only going by personal experience?

I did not find myself to be UNIQUE
among the other boys.

I guess it 'd be good if we coud take a survey of boys; hire Gallop.


Quote:

In my experience, women are better able to handle tragedy than men.
Which says nothing about children.

By paucity of information,
I have no opinion qua the relative abilities
of the 2 genders to handle tragedy.

However, I deem my encounters with those 2 young ladies
to have been the OPPOSITE of tragedy.

Inasmuch as the parties took their respective pleasures and satisfactions
and there were no ill effects,
I am at a loss to understand upon what basis anyone coud take a negative vu.




David
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jul, 2008 02:58 pm
Re: agrote
OmSigDAVID wrote:
It 'd be much worse, much more gross, if a fat ugly old man like me
were getting it on with a 16 year old girl, than if a pleasant young lad
like yourself were to do so. I 'm sure the chick 'd think so.


Who said anything about 16 year old girls? That's actually legal in my country.

Hebephiles are interested in younger girls than that.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jul, 2008 03:15 pm
Re: agrote
agrote wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
It 'd be much worse, much more gross, if a fat ugly old man like me
were getting it on with a 16 year old girl, than if a pleasant young lad
like yourself were to do so. I 'm sure the chick 'd think so.


Who said anything about 16 year old girls? That's actually legal in my country.

Hebephiles are interested in younger girls than that.

Well, when I looked up the definition of that word,
it said sexual interest in adolescents. I imagine that age is within
the definition of "adolescents"; but not to the exclusion of others.

The legal age of consent in NY used to be 18 for a long time.
If I 'm not mistaken, its 17 now.

In my opinion, there shoud be no such thing as "statutory rape"
of a boy, insofar as women are concerned,
allegations of bullets thru souls to the contrary not withstanding.

If I had been challenged on either of those occasions,
I certainly woud have deemed it an outrageous interference
with my personal privacy and liberty.

Well over half a century has passed since then
with my seeing no reason to change my opinion on that.



David
0 Replies
 
harpoonflyby
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jul, 2008 09:24 pm
Re: CHILD PORN IMMORAL IF NO REAL CHILDREN INVOLVED ?
OmSigDAVID wrote:
This thread is posted in my continued exploration of human psychology.

Are the natural rights of children violated
by books including non-illustrated stories of children becoming sexually involved ?


no.

Quote:

Shud such child porn be censored by law ?


it's up to a society to deal with behavior it feels is improper, not any given law. Socially it is proven that laws aren't prescriptive, even though some the members would hope for them to be. A law is only here as a means of categorizing and penalizing some form of harm after it is materially committed

Quote:

Are the natural rights of children violated by books
employing only hand drawn sketches of nude children,
or of computer generated images thereof,
if no real living children were involved ?


What are these "natural rights"? Society agrees upon standard by nature of it being society, it marginalizes individuals for behavior it doesn't like. If human society wasn't here, there would be no necessity of "rights", just as if human child wasn't here, there would be no necessity of "violation".

Quote:

Shud such child porn be censored by law ?


That is a separate question altogether. In practice, laws unfortunately or fortunately say whatever the legacy of the society says they should.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2008 01:33 pm
Re: agrote
OmSigDAVID wrote:
agrote wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
From your picture,
u don 't appear to be far from adolescence, yourself.


How is this relevant?

I'm 21 - I'm an adult.

U expressed sexual interests in adolescents.
U r only just barely out of adolescence yourself.

That is how it is relevant.


agrote, I've told you once, now David has told you and I will tell you again:

It's relevant because sexuality is not a binary issue. It is a spectrum.

It's relevant because sexuality is not entirely nature, it's also part nurture.

You claim that nobody would choose to have such a paraphilia but don't seem to pay any heed to the nurture. Your chronophilia is slight. I think you also matured late and that would make it even slighter.

Why is that relevant, you ask? Because like I said before, if you ever felt attracted to young women near your chronological age you may be able to lead a much happier life if you nurture that part of your sexuality.

Boxing yourself in so adamantly at such a young age can only nurture the part of your sexual predisposition that you claim nobody would choose to embrace.

So don't. You'll be happier and a strong case can be made that it's your moral obligation to try.
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2008 06:27 am
Re: agrote
Robert Gentel wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
agrote wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
From your picture,
u don 't appear to be far from adolescence, yourself.


How is this relevant?

I'm 21 - I'm an adult.

U expressed sexual interests in adolescents.
U r only just barely out of adolescence yourself.

That is how it is relevant.


agrote, I've told you once, now David has told you and I will tell you again:

It's relevant because sexuality is not a binary issue. It is a spectrum.

It's relevant because sexuality is not entirely nature, it's also part nurture.


Relevant to what?? To the topic of this thread? I think not.

Quote:
You claim that nobody would choose to have such a paraphilia but don't seem to pay any heed to the nurture.


I don't deny that, like many things, such a paraphilia is a product of both nature and nurture. But this doesn't change the fact that nobody in their right mind would choose to have it. Maybe it has something to do with early childhood experiences, social isolation, or whatever. But nobody would choose to be nurtured in such a way that it makes them primarily attracted to children/adolescents.

Most importantly of all, nobody can be blamed for the way they have been nurtured, and therefore nobody can be blamed for being a paedophile (or a hebephile). They can be blamed for abusing children, for looking at child porn, and for any other actions they perform. But they can't be blamed for being who they are, because who they are is determined by influences beyond their control. That is why I previously emphasised the fact that nobody would choose to be a paedophile.

Quote:
Your chronophilia is slight. I think you also matured late and that would make it even slighter.


What makes you think I matured late?

Quote:
Why is that relevant, you ask?


To the topic of the thread, yes.

Quote:
Because like I said before, if you ever felt attracted to young women near your chronological age you may be able to lead a much happier life if you nurture that part of your sexuality.


Nope, still not relevant to the topic of the thread.

Anyway, I am attracted to women near my chronological age, or even above it, so I don't think I need to be actively nurturing anything. I intend to find a partner close to my own age. I haven't had much luck, but I'm starting to realise that this has a lot to do with the fact that I have quite a serious self-esteem problem, which is something I am working on. Hebephilia is the least of my troubles.

Quote:
Boxing yourself in so adamantly at such a young age can only nurture the part of your sexual predisposition that you claim nobody would choose to embrace.


I don't see it as boxing myself in. I'm not denying the (very large) part of me that has a strong romantic interest in fully-grown women. But nor am I denying the part of me that likes young girls. If I were to deny that part of my sexuality, then I really would be boxing myself in.

Quote:
So don't. You'll be happier and a strong case can be made that it's your moral obligation to try.


Can it? I'd like to hear your strong case for that, because I can't imagine what it would be.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2008 08:36 am
Re: agrote
agrote wrote:
Robert Gentel wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
agrote wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
From your picture,
u don 't appear to be far from adolescence, yourself.


How is this relevant?

I'm 21 - I'm an adult.

U expressed sexual interests in adolescents.
U r only just barely out of adolescence yourself.

That is how it is relevant.


agrote, I've told you once, now David has told you and I will tell you again:

It's relevant because sexuality is not a binary issue. It is a spectrum.

It's relevant because sexuality is not entirely nature, it's also part nurture.


Relevant to what?? To the topic of this thread? I think not.

Quote:
You claim that nobody would choose to have such a paraphilia but don't seem to pay any heed to the nurture.


I don't deny that, like many things, such a paraphilia is a product of both nature and nurture. But this doesn't change the fact that nobody in their right mind would choose to have it. Maybe it has something to do with early childhood experiences, social isolation, or whatever. But nobody would choose to be nurtured in such a way that it makes them primarily attracted to children/adolescents.

Most importantly of all, nobody can be blamed for the way they have been nurtured, and therefore nobody can be blamed for being a paedophile (or a hebephile). They can be blamed for abusing children, for looking at child porn, and for any other actions they perform. But they can't be blamed for being who they are, because who they are is determined by influences beyond their control. That is why I previously emphasised the fact that nobody would choose to be a paedophile.

Quote:
Your chronophilia is slight. I think you also matured late and that would make it even slighter.


What makes you think I matured late?

Quote:
Why is that relevant, you ask?


To the topic of the thread, yes.

Quote:
Because like I said before, if you ever felt attracted to young women near your chronological age you may be able to lead a much happier life if you nurture that part of your sexuality.


Nope, still not relevant to the topic of the thread.

Anyway, I am attracted to women near my chronological age, or even above it, so I don't think I need to be actively nurturing anything. I intend to find a partner close to my own age. I haven't had much luck, but I'm starting to realise that this has a lot to do with the fact that I have quite a serious self-esteem problem, which is something I am working on. Hebephilia is the least of my troubles.

Quote:
Boxing yourself in so adamantly at such a young age can only nurture the part of your sexual predisposition that you claim nobody would choose to embrace.


I don't see it as boxing myself in. I'm not denying the (very large) part of me that has a strong romantic interest in fully-grown women. But nor am I denying the part of me that likes young girls. If I were to deny that part of my sexuality, then I really would be boxing myself in.

Quote:
So don't. You'll be happier and a strong case can be made that it's your moral obligation to try.


Can it? I'd like to hear your strong case for that,
because I can't imagine what it would be.

If u continue to restrain yourself from illegal activities,
I can see no logical reason for anyone to condem (no n) u.*
U r rightfully sovereign and autonomous between your ears.

Incidentally Agrote, my observation of your posting upon these threads
has shown me that u have been consistently patient and meticulously logical,
in the face of posting against u that was consistently more emotional
(not to say semi-hysterical) hostile, and in most cases, not as thoroughly well reasoned.
U deserve credit for that (which has not been forthcoming).


*Perhaps u r aware
that your fellow man is not always ruled by strict and perfect logic.




David
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2008 09:23 am
fanx m8 much rspct 2 U
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jul, 2008 02:02 pm
" fanx " ??


Thru my youth and middle age, I had no feelings toward children;
(except those who insisted upon screaming for great lengths of time
in restaurants or in planes or trains, toward whom I bore intense antagonism).
Most of my contact with them was within a professional environment,
when thay were involved in litigation, usually personal injury litigation,
within whose context, I treated them indistinguishably with the same
courtesy and respect as all other ligitants, never talking "down" to them,
nor addressing them by their first names.

In my older age, I feel a sense of benevolence toward them.
If I see them shouted at, or handled ruffly (not roughly),
I perceive a moral offense.
Unlike yourself, this has no element of carnal desire,*
but sometimes I appreciate children 's beauty, the same as in a kitten,
a puppy, a rosebud or a sunset.

In my opinion, love is expressed as kindness,
and if this gift is successful, it is absorbed into its target, as joy.
For instance, over the weekend, a lady of my acquaintance, a working woman,
told me that she will take her several little boys to a place of entertainment
to celebrate some of their birthdays.
I don 't know her children; I have never spoken to them, tho I 've seen them,
but I gave her a few hundred $$ to magnify and intensify their respective joys
during this celebratory excursion. Some years ago, while at a gunnery range,
a group of Boy Scouts in uniform arrived, led by their Scout Master,
to whom I gave several hundred $$ for ammunition, and for such movies
and ice cream etc. of their choice, and I showed them the handguns that
I was using on that occasion, while advising them in the years to come
always to vote against liberals and Democrats. We all agreed that voting
against liberals was a fine thing to do. Thay sent me a nice giant card
expressing their gratitude, signed by many boys.


On an eclectic basis, I accept Jeremy Bentham's vu that the gratuitous
creation of unnecessary pain is bad and that the unexpected creation of joy is good.

Philadephia, " the City of Brotherly Love " surely has nothing to do
with fraternal incest. It means good will.
It seems to me that the word "pedophelia"
is a misnomer for rape of children, in that their rapists r not
trying to elevate the happiness of the children involved. Thay r not trying to invest them with joy.
Their relationship is predatory and exploitive. It is unrelated to love.

A more descriptive word shoud be selected to designate the rapists of children
because thay r not loving.




David



*Please correct me, if I have mischaracterized
your state-of-mind; no offense is intended.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2008 06:19 pm
Re: agrote
agrote wrote:

I don't deny that, like many things, such a paraphilia is a product of both nature and nurture. But this doesn't change the fact that nobody in their right mind would choose to have it.


You are missing the main point of what I'm talking about. Mainly that fantasy is nurture and that giving in to progressive fantasy is to further nurture.

Quote:
Most importantly of all, nobody can be blamed for the way they have been nurtured, and therefore nobody can be blamed for being a paedophile (or a hebephile).


I'm not talking about blame but responsibility. Surely you can see that responsibility still exists for the individual regardless of what blame is ascribed.

Quote:
They can be blamed for abusing children, for looking at child porn, and for any other actions they perform.


What about deliberately stoking fantasies that might make their compulsions harder to control?

Quote:
What makes you think I matured late?


To be honest, it's just a hunch.

Quote:
Quote:
Why is that relevant, you ask?


To the topic of the thread, yes.


If fantasy and pornography can be nurture for the compulsions, and can make them harder to control the ethics of choosing to indulge the fantasies and to sate the urges on any level are very relevant. They can be seen as actions that increase the likelihood of harmful consequences.

Quote:
Anyway, I am attracted to women near my chronological age, or even above it, so I don't think I need to be actively nurturing anything. I intend to find a partner close to my own age. I haven't had much luck, but I'm starting to realise that this has a lot to do with the fact that I have quite a serious self-esteem problem, which is something I am working on. Hebephilia is the least of my troubles.

....

I don't see it as boxing myself in. I'm not denying the (very large) part of me that has a strong romantic interest in fully-grown women. But nor am I denying the part of me that likes young girls. If I were to deny that part of my sexuality, then I really would be boxing myself in.


That you intend to find a partner near your chronological age indicates to me that you feel you have some control over your sexuality, which is all I aim to emphasize.

Quote:
Quote:
So don't. You'll be happier and a strong case can be made that it's your moral obligation to try.


Can it? I'd like to hear your strong case for that, because I can't imagine what it would be.


It's pretty simple: fantasy and pornography can be addictive, and lead to stronger compulsions. What your inherent predisposition is may be something you can't change, but you have some degree of control of your thoughts and actions.

I am making the case that you have a moral obligation to do what you can to control your urges and that rejecting the mental indulgence of it through fantasy and pornography may be necessary for you to avoid harm.

It may not be, and neither you or I can know this now but that it may presents a question of ethics even at the mental level.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 12:19 am
Re: agrote
Robert Gentel wrote:

Mr. Gentel,
If I may be heard, I 'd inquire on the following points
(my posting represented in blue font, to set it apart):


agrote wrote:

I don't deny that, like many things, such a paraphilia is a product of both nature and nurture.
But this doesn't change the fact that nobody in their right mind would
choose to have it.


Quote:
You are missing the main point of what I'm talking about.
Mainly that fantasy is nurture and that giving in to progressive fantasy
is to further nurture.

Does this have consequences, in the real world ?
In other words (respectfully) SO WHAT ?
Is any man accountable to his fellows for what he THINKS
??


Quote:
Most importantly of all, nobody can be blamed for the way they have been nurtured,
and therefore nobody can be blamed for being a paedophile (or a hebephile).


Quote:
I'm not talking about blame but responsibility.

Surely you can see that responsibility still exists for the individual
regardless of what blame is ascribed.

Is the individual responsible
for what he thinks, in the privacy of his own mind ?

Shoud societ try to build equipment
to invade that privacy and monitor what the citizens are thinking ?
The Red Chinese and North Koreans did that.
During the Korean War, we captured them with pocket diaries
that thay were required to fill out, as to their thoughts.
Sexuality was prohibited.
Thay were supposed to be thinking about the communist party.




Quote:

They can be blamed for abusing children,
for looking at child porn, and for any other actions they perform.


Quote:
What about deliberately stoking fantasies that might
make their compulsions harder to control?

Is there evidence of this ?
Can u distinguish the difference in probability
between making urges harder or easier to control ?
Incidentally, correct me if I am rong,
but I do not remember Agrote asserting that he has urges to actually GRAB girls.




Quote:
What makes you think I matured late?


Quote:
To be honest, it's just a hunch.

Quote:
Quote:
Why is that relevant, you ask?


To the topic of the thread, yes.


Quote:
If fantasy and pornography can be nurture for the compulsions,
and can make them harder to control the ethics of choosing to indulge
the fantasies and to sate the urges on any level are very relevant.

They can be seen as actions that increase the likelihood of harmful consequences.

Is there evidence that Agrote is planning to DO anything illegal ?
If he looks at pornografy,
and if his sexual urges, such as thay may be, are released in catharsis
will that make " harmful consequences " more or less likely to result ?
Are there competent studies on this point ?





Quote:
Anyway, I am attracted to women near my chronological age,
or even above it, so I don't think I need to be actively nurturing anything.
I intend to find a partner close to my own age. I haven't had much luck,
but I'm starting to realise that this has a lot to do with the fact that I have
quite a serious self-esteem problem, which is something I am working on.
Hebephilia is the least of my troubles.

....

I don't see it as boxing myself in. I'm not denying the (very large) part
of me that has a strong romantic interest in fully-grown women. But nor
am I denying the part of me that likes young girls. If I were to deny that
part of my sexuality, then I really would be boxing myself in.


Quote:
That you intend to find a partner near your chronological age indicates to me
that you feel you have some control over your sexuality, which is all I aim to emphasize.


Quote:
Quote:
So don't. You'll be happier and a strong case can be made
that it's your moral obligation to try.


Can it? I'd like to hear your strong case for that, because I can't imagine what it would be.


Quote:
It's pretty simple: fantasy and pornography can be addictive,
and lead to stronger compulsions.

Is there PROOF of this ?
Did Agrote say that he has COMPULSIONS ?
If he really does have "compulsions" will pornografy
relieve them catharticly, or worsen them ?
Is there objective evidence on this question ?



Quote:
What your inherent predisposition is may be something you can't change,
but you have some degree of control of your thoughts and actions.

I am making the case that you have a moral obligation to do what you can
to control your urges and that rejecting the mental indulgence of it
through fantasy and pornography may be necessary for you to avoid harm.

Mr. Gentel, in all candor,
I believe that people who promote the idea that their fellow citizens
( or subjects ? ) have a MORAL OBLIGATION concerning what thay
think about are very dangerous people; people with that mindset have
cost much blood and many lives. That is frightening, sir.





Quote:

It may not be, and neither you or I can know this now but that it may
presents a question of ethics even at the mental level.

Do ethics exist " at the mental level " ??
U appear to deny and negate the idea of autonomous sovereignty between the ears.
U 'd invite in the control of society, or its henchman government ?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 12:24 am
Agrote:
do u believe that u have thoughts of pedofilia
because of how u were brought up ?

May one inquire as to what causes this to occur,
based upon how one is nurtured, in your opinion,
or based upon your experience ?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 06:05 pm
Where the individual meets society in the law, the Maginot line between a society that respects personal freedom and the ones that don't is what is punished. A society that respects the free man punishes a man for what he does, not for what he thinks or what others fear that he will do. A society that does not respect personal freedom, not so much. We have seen that many a2k'ers do not respect personal freedom in practice by how they react to thoughts and ideas that they are repulsed by, and the same is true in modern societies around the world.

David, your arguments will not work on people who don't respect or desire freedom, which is if not the majority of moderns it is a huge chunk of them. Freedom requires that individuals be able to think for themselves, operate independent of the herd, and much of this ability has been lost over the last three generations. The kids of today, brought up on myspace and cell phones, are not likely to be an improvement over their parents.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 07:55 pm
Is it inevitable
that the destiny of Man is to degenerate into the Borg ?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 08:10 pm
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Is it inevitable
that the destiny of Man is to degenerate into the Borg ?


as with everything ebb and flow is the natural rhythm. Freedom was the primary principle of the enlightenment, America was birthed by the call to freedom voiced by the movement. But we have gone very far the other way now, the individual has been diminished, freedom seems too scary to these borg like humans. They have been created so deeply submersed in consumer culture that they no longer know themselves, no longer have individual inner lives like the humans of old did. They think what they are told to think, see what they are told that they see, they buy what they are told to buy and value what they are told to value.

But all will come again. At some point the tide will turn, the individual will again walk the earth, and will be respected.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 09:52 pm
The Pendulum DOES appear to keep swinging.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 09:57 pm
OmSigDAVID wrote:
The Pendulum DOES appear to keep swinging.


in which direction do you think it is going?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 11:09 pm
To my mind,
there is insufficient evidence to draw a conclusion.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2008 01:38 am
Re: agrote
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Does this have consequences, in the real world ?
In other words (respectfully) SO WHAT ?
Is any man accountable to his fellows for what he THINKS


One's individual rights end where their fellow man's right to peaceful coexistence begins. One is only accountable to his own self for his thoughts.

Quote:
Is the individual responsible
for what he thinks, in the privacy of his own mind ?


That's a very vague question, but I think I know what you are trying to say and no I don't believe in thought crimes. I do, however, believe in being responsible for one's own thoughts.

Quote:
Shoud societ try to build equipment
to invade that privacy and monitor what the citizens are thinking ?


I imagine that there would be compelling financial reasons for members of society to attempt this but again if you are asking if I believe in thought crimes I don't.

Quote:

The Red Chinese and North Koreans did that.
During the Korean War, we captured them with pocket diaries
that thay were required to fill out, as to their thoughts.


In a religious context as a child I had to do the same, I am not a fan and you are barking up the wrong tree. I am not saying that thought should be policed by government. I am saying that each individual has a degree of control, and therefore responsibility, for their thoughts.

Quote:

Quote:
What about deliberately stoking fantasies that might
make their compulsions harder to control?

Is there evidence of this ?


That indulging in fantasy "might" make compulsions harder to control? That's a statement of possibility and the only way to prove it would be to prove the absence of evidence that it's impossible.

Given that it's a very pedestrian comment what are you really asking me to give evidence for? That it will lead to realization? That there has been an established causative link?

If you are asking me to settle the nature/nurture debate with a nugget of "evidence" then I'm going to disappoint you. I, like all others, do not have such a nugget of wisdom to impart. The debate on the relative strength of nature and nurture will not be settled here.

Quote:

Can u distinguish the difference in probability
between making urges harder or easier to control ?


Of course not. You might have a general idea about yourself, knowing how strong your compulsions are and your typical reactions to extended fantasy but I can't mathematically quantify it for you. Of course, if you think about it for a bit you might come to agree with me that it would be ridiculous to believe that this can be done with mankind's present body of knowledge.

Quote:

Incidentally, correct me if I am rong,
but I do not remember Agrote asserting that he has urges to actually GRAB girls.


I don't think I claimed he did. In fact my guess is that his paraphilia, if present, is slight. But whatever his case may be, I am merely arguing that if one's indulgence in fantasy increases the probability of realization there are ethical arguments toward shunning the fantasy.

Whether that's relevant to agrote is something for him, not me, to figure out. I'm not arguing that he's a threat to society.

Quote:
Is there evidence that Agrote is planning to DO anything illegal ?


Sigh. I have no idea, and have never claimed as much.

Quote:

If he looks at pornografy,
and if his sexual urges, such as thay may be, are released in catharsis
will that make " harmful consequences " more or less likely to result ?
Are there competent studies on this point ?


Whether or not the use of pornography would result in more or less probability of harm is not something that any "competent study" is going to answer either way in this case. Like much else in psychology it can go either way. The classic knock on psychology is that an abused child may grow to abuse or to have a particular distaste for abuse. In short, as a science there are a lot of areas that simply don't enjoy the kind of simplistic binary exactitude of other sciences that you are seeking.

Quote:
Quote:
It's pretty simple: fantasy and pornography can be addictive,
and lead to stronger compulsions.

Is there PROOF of this ?
Did Agrote say that he has COMPULSIONS ?
If he really does have "compulsions" will pornografy
relieve them catharticly, or worsen them ?
Is there objective evidence on this question ?


Here you go again asking for proof of a possibility. By its nature, a single example would constitute proof. I'm not going to get into moving the goal posts all over the place and try to provide you "objective evidence" of my claim that something is possible. You are asking for yes or no answers in a field of study where the answer is often "both" and asking me to provide simple citations to "prove" absolute positions I have not held.

Are you trying to say that indulging in fantasy can't ever result in an increased likelihood of realization? If not, then what are you asking me to "prove"? I'm not going to stake out a simplistic position in these long standing psychology debates and try to prove it to you and I made no such simplistic claims.


Quote:
Mr. Gentel, in all candor,
I believe that people who promote the idea that their fellow citizens
( or subjects ? ) have a MORAL OBLIGATION concerning what thay
think about are very dangerous people; people with that mindset have
cost much blood and many lives. That is frightening, sir.


David, in all candor, you scare as easily as you get lost in a conversation. I don't advocate the thought police you imagine in my posts and you are sliding down your own slippery slope. Be scared if you wish, but comparing me to brutal authoritarians from the pages of history requires a serious reading impediment or a healthy imagination.

Quote:
Quote:

It may not be, and neither you or I can know this now but that it may
presents a question of ethics even at the mental level.

Do ethics exist " at the mental level " ??
U appear to deny and negate the idea of autonomous sovereignty between the ears.
U 'd invite in the control of society, or its henchman government ?


David, that you managed to highlight each time I indicate "might", "may" and that it "may not be" and then spend a page asking me to prove that it does is what I'm talking about with the reading incomprehension. It's tedious and I don't want to go in circles so I'm not going to try to imagine what you mean when you ask if ethics exists at the mental level and simply note that you imagine the threat to the sovereignty between your ears.

I've not in any way advocated society controlling thought and you can put away your imagined henchmen (who also think you are too paranoid).
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2008 01:42 am
hawkeye10 wrote:

David, your arguments will not work on people who don't respect or desire freedom


Nor with people to whom they are indiscriminately directed. This isn't an issue of a lacking respect for freedom, it's a simple issue of David drawing a bunch of conclusions about something simple and getting to government henchmen, mind control, and thought crimes.

I posit that this has a lot more to do with David than his interlocutors. But it doesn't look like you are reading along either so I apologize in advance if I don't reply to the next sheeple slogan out of nowhere.
0 Replies
 
 

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