1
   

CHILD PORN IMMORAL IF NO REAL CHILDREN INVOLVED ?

 
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:26 am
Agrote
agrote wrote:
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Boomer and Agrote. You are both right and I apologize for my bad judgment. I'm glad the moderators removed my ill-advised post.

BBB


They didn't.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure how to delete one's own posts after they've been responded to. So I'll report your post and mention that you've agreed to have it removed.


I thought it was removed. I can't delete it after someone responds.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:26 am
Re: Boomer and Agrote
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Boomer and Agrote. You are both right and I apologize for my bad judgment. I'm glad the moderators removed my ill-advised post.

BBB


If anyone ever deserved it, it was agrote, BBB. I think he's learned a valuable lesson from you today.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:31 am
BBB
I just reported myself and asked the Moderators to delete my poor judgment post.

BBB
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:40 am
Re: All BBB cold find about Agrote
agrote wrote:
Another issue is that I haven't "come out" to everyone that I know, and I'd like to minimise the risk of somebody "outing" me on my facebook page or by other means.

This raises an interesting question.

Is morality absolute, or relative to how society views a particular action/belief/viewpoint/desire?

Also, could one judge the morality of an action (say, for example, seeking and viewing child pornography) based on reaction of one's family, friends, and associates were they to know of it?

Surely at some point disapproval and immorality meet.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:42 am
DrewDad wrote:

David's newly-revealed fascination with child porn is surprisingly unsurprising.

I have always been interested in how people think,
particularly those with whom I cannot agree;
how radically DIFFERENT their thought processes are than mine.

I remember once, many years ago, I sent out a process server
to subpoena a kid to testify in personal injury litigation.
(My investigator had reported that the kid had witnessed
the accident involved and had rendered an account at the scene,
and on the police report, that was favorable to exculpation of my client,
but my investigator reported that the kid's parents did not want him to testify.)
One of my partners did not like my doing so, and argued against it.
To me, this was incomprehensible.
Finally, after argument, he admitted that he opposed it because HE was a father
and he 'd not like it if someone subpoenaed HIS daughter to testify
against his will; UNPROFESSIONAL.
I did not give a rat 's ass about the witness' parents; thay were not my clients.
I cared about winning for MY client, and MY contingent fee.
Tho my partner voted in November the same way that I do,
his mental processes were singularly ALIEN to mine, on this point.

Before he admitted the reason that he disliked my having subpoenaed
the child, I felt like I wanted to unscrew the top of his head and look down
to see what was going on inside.

Similarly, it struck me as odd, or strange,
that u wud all get so emotionally incensed against Agrote.

U sounded like u all wanted to lynch him; but for WHAT ?
He did not DO anything.
He merely raised an issue for discussion on a forum.

Its not as if Agrote had announced plans to go into the child porn business next week
with intentions of taking pictures of rapes going on; that did NOT happen.

To my mind,
it seems a little weird that anyone wud choose to become infuriated about
someone taking another person 's picture; if u add to that the element
that the model is unclothed (but consents to the photography),
I still see no logical reason that anyone can have to object.

So far as I understand, this is not a matter of discussing the propriety of rape,
any more than it is of the propriety of murder; both are criminal matters for the police.
On the contrary,
Agrote has raised questions concerning the ethics of photography
and what u think about those ethics.
Raising questions for discussion is a perfectly innocent thing to do.
In response to Agrote's doing that, u repeatedly INSULTED him
and (figuratively speaking) ground his face into the earth.
From my (incomplete) reading of these threads,
it appears that many of u were sadistic in your efforts to humiliate Agrote
and he did his best to use logic to defend himself
and to continue his inquiry.

If honor and decency are to be served,
you will all apologize to Agrote.
Will u have the maturity and honor to do so ? We shall see.


These threads have been explorations
into the relationship between emotions and photography,
or
perhaps more broadly into the relationship between emotions and art.

I 'm not inquiring into pornography; I am inquiring into
WHAT u all THINK about it, and how the law shud apply to it
and how your thought process operate.

In order to LEARN,
I must probe the minds of people who DISAGREE with me, to get new information.

THAT is the subject matter of this inquiry, not pornography.




David
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:44 am
Re: Boomer and Agrote
boomerang wrote:
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Boomer and Agrote. You are both right and I apologize for my bad judgment. I'm glad the moderators removed my ill-advised post.

BBB


If anyone ever deserved it, it was agrote, BBB. I think he's learned a valuable lesson from you today.


Sorry to disappoint you, but I haven't. I do believe that viewing free child porn is harmful for the reason that child porn producers may profit financially from the number of times their images are viewed.

I also believe that it is harmful in the sense that the victims depicted in it may be traumatised to find that their abuse is available to be watched on the internet. But the solution to that problem is to remove child porn from the internet. Punishing paedophiles for viewing child porn will not, as far as I know, affect the likelihood that victims of child abuse will see their images on the web, or will be aware of their availability.

Punishing paedophiles will, however, discourage them from viewing child porn, and will therefore (hopefully) prevent them from funding its creation. So I do think that paedophiles should be punished for viewing child porn.

Anyway, so these are things I have already believed for the past few days. I didn't learn anything extra from BBB's post. I asked for her post to be removed because I was worried about receiving death threats or being "outed". Child porn isn't wrong because child abuse victims are worried about receiving death threats or being "outed". It is wrong for other reasons.
0 Replies
 
Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:51 am
you might want to re-think your participation in an activity that has the potential to generate death-threats.

just my 2 Cents
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:57 am
Re: All BBB cold find about Agrote
Francis wrote:
agrote wrote:
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
A google search for Agrote...


Could you delete this post please? I'd rather avoid the inevitable death threats. If you don't delete the post I'll have to report it.


That's the summum of hypocrisy:

You put yourself your stuff on the internet. What are you complaining about?

(Are you afraid that somebody will come around with a spoon?)

Francis,
will u explain the reference to a spoon ?

Does Agrote have an unnatural fear of spoons ?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 12:08 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
The question posed by OSD is actually a fairly interesting philosophical dilemma,
and it was the question that agrote should have focused on
in his own child porn thread.

It's a question, therefore, that merits intelligent debate.

Unfortunately, OSD and agrote are quite possibly the last people on earth
who can be counted on for such debate.

Joe,
I take that as a hitting-below-the-belt personal attack upon me,
unless u show that I have done something rong in debating; something specific.

Agrote has recently shown us the terms of service
concerning personal attacks. I will point out that I have not attacked U.

I object.




David
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 12:10 pm
Re: All BBB cold find about Agrote
DrewDad wrote:
Is morality absolute, or relative to how society views a particular action/belief/viewpoint/desire?


My own view is that it is either absolute, or completely non-existent. Actions are either obejctively right/wrong, or not right/wrong at all. I don't understand moral relativism at all.

There's a good article here by Simon Blackburn which argues that relativism is a "distraction": http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=12. Worth a read if you have the time.

Quote:
Also, could one judge the morality of an action (say, for example, seeking and viewing child pornography) based on reaction of one's family, friends, and associates were they to know of it?


I think that would be unwise. Imagine if we did that with homosexuality, back when it was widely disapproved of. Back then, if a man were to have sex with another man, his family, friends and associates (were they to know of it) would have strongly disapproved. Does that mean that gay sex used to be wrong? Of course not. Gay sex has never been wrong. What was wrong back then was the widespread condemnation of gay sex; people's beliefs about the moral status of gay sex were wrong.

If you want to determine whether an action is wrong, you ought to think about its consequences, or what it implies about the actor, or whether it contradicts any ethical principles you happen to believe in. It isn't wise to just look at whether other people disapprove of the action, because you don't know what their reasons are for disapproving. They might have good reasons, or they might not.

Seeking and viewing child pornography is - I have come to believe - probably wrong. But it isn't wrong because people disapprove of it. In my view it's wrong because of its cosnequences. Other people might think it's wrong because only a cruel person would do it. There may be other viable theories of what makes it wrong. But it certainly isn't wrong because people disapprove of it.

The fact that your friends, family and associates would disapprove if you were to seek out child porn does not indicate that it is wrong to do so. It only indicates that they believe that it is wrong to do so. Their beliefs may or may not be justified. Rather than asking whether or not people disapprove of the action, it would be better to move straight to the question of whether there is any justifiable reason to disapprove of the action (and to clarify: I now think that the answer to this question is likely to be 'yes'.)

Quote:
Surely at some point disapproval and immorality meet.


People often disapprove of an action because the action is truly immoral. But people also often disapprove of an action because they mistakenly believe that it is immoral. It isn't enough to identify the disapproval. You've got to identify the reasons for the disapproval. Did people disapprove of gay sex because they had reason to believe that homosexuality was a dangerous and contageous illness? Or did they disapprove of gay sex because society was deeply prejudiced, and ignorant about the true nature of homosexuality?
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 12:26 pm
Region Philbis wrote:
you might want to re-think your participation in an activity that has the potential to generate death-threats.

just my 2 Cents


The first openly gay bishop might want to re-think his participation in an activity that has the potential to provoke hecklers: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/14/anglicanism.religion.

Or he might not want to let the homophobes win.

I'm not gay, but I do have opinions and sexual desires which have the potential to provoke death-threats. The people who would give me death threats may wish that I didn't express my views in a public forum, or they may wish that I wasn't comfortable with my sexuality, or they may wish for me to be locked up or (of course) killed because of what I believe or what I desire. But those demands are unreasonable, and I should do what I can to avoid meeting unreasonable demands.

I need to reduce the risk of death-threats, and I need to ensure my own safety. But I also need to avoid being intimidated and silenced.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 12:33 pm
Re: All BBB cold find about Agrote
agrote wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Is morality absolute, or relative to how society views a particular action/belief/viewpoint/desire?


My own view is that it is either absolute, or completely non-existent. Actions are either obejctively right/wrong, or not right/wrong at all. I don't understand moral relativism at all.

But an action that is immoral in one context, say killing someone, can be moral in another context, e.g. for self defense.

Is it moral to kill in self defense just because society approves of it?

Or even your favorite subject, child pornography. An individual viewing child pornography for pleasure is, IMO, immoral, whereas a police office viewing child pornography to find clues is not.



If you are truly a moral absolutist, then shouldn't you view an action as right or wrong regardless of context? You've claimed elsewhere to be a moral consequentialist. Isn't that the opposite of a moral absolutist?

It seems that you're either a) very confused, b) lying, or c) some combination of the two.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 12:40 pm
Re: All BBB cold find about Agrote
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Francis wrote:
agrote wrote:
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
A google search for Agrote...


Could you delete this post please? I'd rather avoid the inevitable death threats. If you don't delete the post I'll have to report it.


That's the summum of hypocrisy:

You put yourself your stuff on the internet. What are you complaining about?

(Are you afraid that somebody will come around with a spoon?)

Francis,
will u explain the reference to a spoon ?

Does Agrote have an unnatural fear of spoons ?


I don't know, but he should:

With a spoon
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 12:47 pm
Quote:
The first openly gay bishop might want to re-think his participation in an activity that has the potential to provoke hecklers:


Oh please. This man didn't hide. He stood up and said "This is who I am".

You, not so much.
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 01:18 pm
Re: All BBB cold find about Agrote
DrewDad wrote:
agrote wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Is morality absolute, or relative to how society views a particular action/belief/viewpoint/desire?


My own view is that it is either absolute, or completely non-existent. Actions are either obejctively right/wrong, or not right/wrong at all. I don't understand moral relativism at all.

But an action that is immoral in one context, say killing someone, can be moral in another context, e.g. for self defense.


Yes, but that isn't relativism. Relativism would be if it were wrong to kill for you, but not (say) for Charles Manson.

Quote:
Is it moral to kill in self defense just because society approves of it?


No. A consequentialist, for example, might say that it is moral because it is the course of action most conducive to the maximisation of human well-being (or some other agent-neutral value). Not killing in self-defence might mean that you get killed, and that the dangerous attacker is free to threaten other people. On the other hand, if you kill in self-defence you may preserve your own life and protect other people from the threat of the attacker.

So there are plausible non-relativistic ways to account for different contexts and special circumstances. Self-defence is not acceptable because society approves of it. Society approves of it because it is acceptable (or at least, we should hope that this is the case).

Quote:
Or even your favorite subject, child pornography. An individual viewing child pornography for pleasure is, IMO, immoral, whereas a police office viewing child pornography to find clues is not.


Right. But you're describing two different acts: the act of viewing child porn for pleasure; and the act of viewing child porn for clues in a police investigation. The two actions share feature of involving the viewing of images of child porn. But they also have different features: different intentions, different consequences. So they are different actions, and it is their differences that make one of them right and one of them wrong.

My current view is that viewing child porn for pleasure is (usually) wrong because it (usually) runs the risk of providing financial incentives for the abuse of children. Viewing child porn for clues, on the other hand, is (usually) right because it (usually, as far as I know) involves scanning an offline hard drive rather than a webpage, thereby eliminating the risk of adding to the profit of the child abuser. More significantly, the latter act contributes to the prevention of further harm to children, which is the purpose of the police investigations.

There is no need to invoke a relativistic explanation for why one of these acts is right and the other is wrong.

"If you are truly a moral absolutist, then shouldn't you view an action as right or wrong regardless of context? You've claimed elsewhere to be a moral consequentialist. Isn't that the opposite of a moral absolutist?"

No, consequentialists believe in one moral absolute. Utilitarians, for example, believe that right actions are the actions most conducive to the maximisation of overall happiness. Whether an action is conducive to this will depend on context, and so consequentialists can accomodate the importance of context while maintaining that there is one moral absolute, which determines the rightness or wrongness of all actions.

I don't deny the importance of context; I deny the importance of perspective. The rightness of actions is relative to circumstances, but it is not relative to people's judgments about it.

Quote:
It seems that you're either a) very confused, b) lying, or c) some combination of the two.


None of the three. It's possible that I'm not using the word 'absolutism' correctly, but that doesn't change the substance of what I'm saying.
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 01:28 pm
boomerang wrote:
Quote:
The first openly gay bishop might want to re-think his participation in an activity that has the potential to provoke hecklers:


Oh please. This man didn't hide. He stood up and said "This is who I am".

You, not so much.


Well, I did. I stated my controversial beleifs, and I confessed to being a paedophile (although, the term 'hebephile' would have been slightly more accurate, and it is the word I used a long time ago in my other thread about child sexuality).

I did come into a public forum and say "this is who I am, and this is what I believe". It's not as brave/risky as what the bishop has done, but it does amount to not letting myself be silenced by the possibility of death threats. That was the point I was making: contrary to what Philbis said, I shouldn't let the possibility of death threats prevent me from airing my views or expressing myself.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 01:38 pm
Re: All BBB cold find about Agrote
Francis wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Francis wrote:
agrote wrote:
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
A google search for Agrote...


Could you delete this post please? I'd rather avoid the inevitable death threats. If you don't delete the post I'll have to report it.


That's the summum of hypocrisy:

You put yourself your stuff on the internet. What are you complaining about?

(Are you afraid that somebody will come around with a spoon?)

Francis,
will u explain the reference to a spoon ?

Does Agrote have an unnatural fear of spoons ?


I don't know, but he should:

With a spoon


Thank u, Francis




David
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 02:06 pm
OmSigDAVID, quoting what i had written in response to Agrote wrote:

I will confess that I have not read all of the posts of the other threads
on this aspect of legal and social policy. To that extent, I may be at fault
for duplicating effort. It is irrational for you to get so excited (in a negative way)
about raising for discussion ANY aspect of legal philosophy or social policy.

Maybe u believe that, for some reason that u prefer not to disclose,
THIS particular aspect of policy, shud be an EXCEPTION, as distinct from, say,
the anti-trust laws, or paying farmers to not grow food, which MAY be freely discussed.


In the first place, i did not "get excited," nor did i at any time state, suggest or imply that you should not discuss this topic. What i did was to point out the idiocy of the proposition, and then focused on the poll, because it gives the lie to your claim that you haven't suggested that you can prevent rape by allowing child pornography of a certain provenance.

Certainly this is a dead horse which has been dragged around the site for further beating. However, you are completely incorrect to refer to my response as excited, and you are completely incorrect to make a claim that i don't think it should be discussed. I consider it in execrably bad taste, and i've never been fond of the aroma of rotting horse--but i have not said you shouldn't discuss this, or any other topic.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 02:07 pm
À propos of which, this . . .

joefromchicago wrote:
The question posed by OSD is actually a fairly interesting philosophical dilemma, and it was the question that agrote should have focused on in his own child porn thread. It's a question, therefore, that merits intelligent debate. Unfortunately, OSD and agrote are quite possibly the last people on earth who can be counted on for such debate.


. . . bears repeating.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 02:17 pm
agrote wrote:
This is half-true. A number of others demonstrated that my original assumptions were wrong. Joe demonstrated that I am confused about consequentialism. You didn't demonstrate very much at all. You responded to me, but not point-by-point.


That's a lie--you are fundamentally dishonest. I selected a specific post of yours, quoted it, and responded to it point by point

Quote:
Quote:
You continue to trot out the same idiotic arguments.


Where do I do this?


As is said in another thread, i am not going to be suckered in to playing a game with you in which each time you profess your ignorance, i am obliged to trot around the site from thread to thread, finding the quotes which show just how you have done this. In particular, we have your claim that viewing free images won't create demand, and that viewing free images won't hurt those who were originally victimized. I have stated in detail, and O'Bill has stated in detail how someone can profit from showing "free" images. Joe remarked on how someone might be motivated to show more images even if they are not profiting personaly. Joe and i and several others pointed out that the original victims can suffer from having their humiliation dragged before the public yet again.

I left your thread because you keep trotting out such things, not just these issues but others. You bring them up again and again, and each time you address them, you behave as though they had never been discussed before. You attempted to pull that on me in Hawkeye's thread, and in that thread, on page 10, O'Bill for at least the second time gave a detailed account of how people can profit from showing "free" images, and on that same page you were bringing out the entire free images dog and pony show again.

You must really think the people at this site are stupid.

You are fundamentally dishonest.

The rest of your post is a lie and a whine. A lie in that you claim that you were unconvinced, but at the time that i posted, you acknowledged the force of my arguments--it wasn't just O'Bill who shot down your free images bullshit, i did too. In both cases, you were right back offering the stupid contention which had been initially challenged, and in the case of Hawkeye's thread, O'Bill posted a detailed rebuttal on the top of page 10, and you were peddling your horseshit a few posts later on the same page.

You are fundamentally dishonest.

It's a whine because your chickens have come home to roost, and you don't like it.

Tough ****.
0 Replies
 
 

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