4
   

Oil Vs. Alternative Energy

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2008 12:28 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
okie wrote:
Prove there are less trees in the continental U.S. now than in 1776. Prove it.


Who said anything about the continental US? It's GLOBAL tree coverage that matters, ya maroon! Our environment doesn't just hover over our nation, self contained....

Just quit while you can, honestly.

But just to prove your bullshit wrong, here ya go.

Area of primary forests in the United States (lower 48)
(around 1620, top; and 1850 middle; 1920, bottom)

http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/deforest/defores9.JPG

Quote:


Since 1600, 90% of the virgin forests that once covered much of the lower 48 states have been cleared away. Most of the remaining old-growth forests in the lower 48 states and Alaska are on public lands. In the Pacific Northwest about 80% of this forestland is slated for logging.


http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/deforest/deforest.html

More:

Quote:

Prior to the arrival of European-Americans about one half of the United States land area was forest, about 4 million square kilometers (1 billion acres) in 1600. For the next 300 years land was cleared, mostly for agriculture at a rate that matched the rate of population growth. For every person added to the population, one to two hectares of land was cultivated.[42] This trend continued until the 1920s when the amount of crop land stabilized in spite of continued population growth. As abandoned farm land reverted to forest the amount of forest land increased from 1952 reaching a peak in 1963 of 3,080,000 km² (762 million acres). Since 1963 there has been a steady decrease of forest area with the exception of some gains from 1997. Gains in forest land have resulted from conversions from crop land and pastures at a higher rate than loss of forest to development. Because urban development is expected to continue, an estimated 93,000 km² (23 million acres) of forest land is projected be lost by 2050[43], a 3% reduction from 1997. Other qualitative issues have been identified such as the continued loss of old-growth forest,[44] the increased fragmentation of forest lands, and the increased urbanization of forest land.[45]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation#United_States

Wikipedia reports a total drop by 1/4.

One F*CKING minute of googling, Okie. One minute.

Cycloptichorn


You do realize that the maps you posted are at best somebodies guess.

There is no way that anyone can say with any type of certainty how much forestation there was in the 1600's or the 1800's, and even in the 1920's its only a rough guess.
There was no way to adequately or accurately measure forestation until we had a way to get overhead shots,mainly sattelite.


As you are not an expert on the science of Forestry, and as experts on that science do exist, my guess is that there is rather more evidence to back up their claims then you think. I highly doubt that they just 'guessed' where trees might have been.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2008 02:44 pm
The tree huggers love to believe alot of things, such as all the trees are disappearing.

Another is topsoil, I remember the doom and gloom when I was in grade school about all the topsoil was going to be gone by 1970 or 1980. Another kid and I actually joined the Junior Audubon Society, and to the delight of our teacher, we received these pretty newsletters with colorful pictures and claims of impending doom if we didn't do something about topsoil and the evil farming practices. Well, here we are 2008, guess what, there is still dirt everywhere I look, cyclops, explain that, and farmers are raising more yields of crops in guess what, "topsoil."
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2008 03:05 pm
tree huggers, eh?

for the life of me, i cannot understand the mentality that tearing **** up is better than having a nice place to live.

and somehow, it seems like it's always those who lean right (some to the extent that they are in danger of falling over) who toss that philosophy around. i wonder why that is?


http://maps.grida.no/go/graphic/extent-of-deforestation-in-borneo-1950-2005-and-projection-towards-2020
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2008 03:12 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
tree huggers, eh?

for the life of me, i cannot understand the mentality that tearing **** up is better than having a nice place to live.

and somehow, it seems like it's always those who lean right (some to the extent that they are in danger of falling over) who toss that philosophy around. i wonder why that is?


http://maps.grida.no/go/graphic/extent-of-deforestation-in-borneo-1950-2005-and-projection-towards-2020


In the not too distant past, these people of the right believed that the earth was flat.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2008 07:14 pm
Quote:
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2008 07:17 pm
Advocate wrote:


In the not too distant past, these people of the right believed that the earth was flat.


Being left of center politically is one thing; Malthusianism and wanting to return our planet's human population to medieval levels for the greater glory of Gaia are something else and that second item is a form of idolatry which is WORSE than believing that the Earth is flat.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2008 07:19 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Advocate wrote:


In the not too distant past, these people of the right believed that the earth was flat.


...Malthusianism and wanting to return our planet's human population to medieval levels for the greater glory of Gaia...


jesussss... where do you get this stuff ?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 01:28 am
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
tree huggers, eh?

for the life of me, i cannot understand the mentality that tearing **** up is better than having a nice place to live.

and somehow, it seems like it's always those who lean right (some to the extent that they are in danger of falling over) who toss that philosophy around. i wonder why that is?


http://maps.grida.no/go/graphic/extent-of-deforestation-in-borneo-1950-2005-and-projection-towards-2020

Is Borneo governed by American conservatives?
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 02:05 am
okie wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
tree huggers, eh?

for the life of me, i cannot understand the mentality that tearing **** up is better than having a nice place to live.

and somehow, it seems like it's always those who lean right (some to the extent that they are in danger of falling over) who toss that philosophy around. i wonder why that is?

Is Borneo governed by American conservatives?


you persist in viewing global issues through local glasses. are you under the impression that there "rightists" only in the u.s..

and that's why a lot of people aren't getting the drift about destroying and poisoning our environment.

as poorly as pollution is monitored and controlled in the u.s., it's a whole shitload better than a lot of other places. like north korea. like china. like india. mexico city? it may happen there, but we will continue to be impacted by it because we are all on the same big island. with no where else to go, btw. if we act like slobs, we can't say nothin' to anybody else about it.

let me put it this way. i see it that the american right feels strongly that america should lead. and experience tells me that the best way to lead is by example.

but maybe some need a more practical illustration of why we should try to preserve our natural resources. so here it is;

this thanksgiving, when everyone has been seated at that big comfortable table, laden with a cornucopia of delicious foods, enjoying a good life; you should climb up onto the table top and stomp around for a while.

then drop trou, squat down and drop a big load o' poo-poo right on the turkey. i mean give that bird a damn good bombs away. show no mercy.

then, take your seat at the table.

still feel like eating ?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 08:34 am
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
Advocate wrote:


In the not too distant past, these people of the right believed that the earth was flat.


...Malthusianism and wanting to return our planet's human population to medieval levels for the greater glory of Gaia...


jesussss... where do you get this stuff ?


Where??

I mean, the E-whacks have now had nearly 40 years to try to replace all of the old Gaia-hateful technologies with windmills and solar panels and it simply has not happened. There have been two demokkkrat administrations in that time, 12 years worth of the whitehouse under dem control, and all of the money which the trial lawyers extort from the world and union bosses extort from their own minions and a free country and a free economy to work with and you have to assume the windmill and solar panel **** has never happened because it's never been CAPABLE of working.

And yet the dems and E-whacks still refuse to allow the United States to drill for oil or do anything else realistic to resolve our problems which have now become life threatening.

What is anybody supposed to think? I mean, what could these peoples motivations possibly be??
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 10:00 am
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
okie wrote:

Is Borneo governed by American conservatives?


you persist in viewing global issues through local glasses. are you under the impression that there "rightists" only in the u.s..

and that's why a lot of people aren't getting the drift about destroying and poisoning our environment.

as poorly as pollution is monitored and controlled in the u.s., it's a whole shitload better than a lot of other places. like north korea. like china. like india. mexico city? ....


Blame leftists then. Can't you even read your own posts?
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 12:20 pm
okie wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
okie wrote:

Is Borneo governed by American conservatives?


you persist in viewing global issues through local glasses. are you under the impression that there "rightists" only in the u.s..

and that's why a lot of people aren't getting the drift about destroying and poisoning our environment.

as poorly as pollution is monitored and controlled in the u.s., it's a whole shitload better than a lot of other places. like north korea. like china. like india. mexico city? ....


Blame leftists then. Can't you even read your own posts?


the whole point is that you persist in seeing a global problem through the narrowness of local glasses. the words rightist and leftist are not all that material. only that both exist outside of the u.s. as well. calderone of mexico is a conservative, for instance.

what that means is that what they do in other countries has an effect on ours and vice versa. as i pointed out, i believe that the countries i mentioned have worse records than we do. but, how are we supposed to complain to them about it when the president won't even cooperate on global initiatives like kyoto ?

see, because you have a shitload of trees on your street there couldn't possibly be a problem with deforestation. you've said as much.

that's what i was getting at.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 12:46 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
.. how are we supposed to complain to them about it when the president won't even cooperate on global initiatives like kyoto ?

Get serious, DTOM.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 12:52 pm
okie wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
.. how are we supposed to complain to them about it when the president won't even cooperate on global initiatives like kyoto ?

Get serious, DTOM.


ever heard of "lead by example"?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 01:06 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
okie wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
.. how are we supposed to complain to them about it when the president won't even cooperate on global initiatives like kyoto ?

Get serious, DTOM.


ever heard of "lead by example"?


Paying lip service to the global community is not a good way to lead. Look at all the countries that signed the Kyoto protocol. Have any of them actually followed through with any of it?
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 01:18 pm
McGentrix wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
okie wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
.. how are we supposed to complain to them about it when the president won't even cooperate on global initiatives like kyoto ?

Get serious, DTOM.


ever heard of "lead by example"?


Paying lip service to the global community is not a good way to lead. Look at all the countries that signed the Kyoto protocol. Have any of them actually followed through with any of it?


paying lip service is just that no matter who it is.

if america is going to lead, it has to be by example. as you point out, it's uncertain that anyone who signed the kyoto is really giving it best effort.

hard to criticize them when we are failing as well. we may be doing a somewhat better job, but there's room for improvement.

america can accomplish anything it sets a mind to.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 01:22 pm
...and we are. America does lead by example. We chose not to sign the Kyoto Protocol because we realized it set unattainable standards and would hurt our economy and from progress so far, it would appear as though we were right to do so.

Leading by example.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 02:28 pm
McGentrix wrote:
...and we are. America does lead by example. We chose not to sign the Kyoto Protocol because we realized it set unattainable standards and would hurt our economy and from progress so far, it would appear as though we were right to do so.

Leading by example.



if you are correct, the example would be to come up with something better.

continuing to base our economy and foreign policy on oil suggests that we have not done that.

i fail to see how phasing out an old technology and replacing it, and the jobs and revenue it generates, with newer technologies and jobs etc. would hurt the economy.

i believe that "unattainable" is a temporary state. it's simply a matter of will to attain most things.

when america's leaders and people attain the will to will the unattainable, the unattainable will be attained.

after we have done that to our best, and better than others, we will be in a better position to lead by example.

in any case, just doing the same old thing will leave us with the same old problems.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 04:25 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:


i fail to see how phasing out an old technology and replacing it, and the jobs and revenue it generates, with newer technologies and jobs etc. would hurt the economy.....



Happy to explain it for you... The future may well be with something like that EESTOR super capacitor but even if all cars produced or sold in America were to start using that technology tommorrow, we will still have a thirty year base of gasoline and diesel vehicles on our roads and if fuel for them is going to be $4 - $10 a gallon from now until then due to the efforts of the E-whacks and Malthusians, we will not make it from here to there.
0 Replies
 
Avatar ADV
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 07:18 pm
Phasing out one technology for another based on market imperatives yields higher productivity in the long run.

It does not, however, mean you get an instant transition. People will look at the economics of switching over, and currently-in-use equipment will generally be used until the end of its cycle (or almost, anyway). If you just bought a car yesterday, you're not going to replace it today, unless the cost of operating the current vehicle becomes overwhelming - and even then, you're probably still better off not switching until you've paid down the current vehicle some.

Just chucking functioning equipment, though, is a bad idea. Maybe an illustrative analogy would help...

- A new house would have better energy efficiency, saving me money on my utility bills, and helping the environment in its own little way.
- My current house is old and does not have good energy efficiency.
- I should burn down my house and build a new one.

You see the problem here, right?

Even though the old, outdated house is not as efficient as a new one might be, it is not without value, and abandoning it in favor of a new house would be tremendously expensive, far beyond what you could hope to recover from savings operating the new one.

We base our economy on oil because it works. NOTHING ELSE DOES. The current alternatives aren't actually alternatives yet. When the technology improves, then people will have incentive to switch over; indeed, they'll start doing it on their own without prompting.
0 Replies
 
 

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