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AND SO IT BEGINS? SHARIA LAW IN BRITAIN?

 
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 08:57 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Have you heard of the Spanish Inquisition?


You are comparing an earlier "phase" of Christianity with an extremism today that does exist in another religion. You are ignoring the time variable, I believe.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 09:03 am
Foofie wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
Have you heard of the Spanish Inquisition?


You are comparing an earlier "phase" of Christianity with an extremism today that does exist in another religion. You are ignoring the time variable, I believe.


You are really making the claim there are no Christian extremists today? We have Radovan Karadic facing war crimes, we have the KKK and like Christian groups gaining membership, not to mention brutal Christian militias from the Middle East to Africa.

It was you who brought up the history of Spain. It is funny you talk about the Golden age as the time under the Moors. Compared to the way the Spanish treated Jews over most of the rest of their dark history, it really was the Golden Age.

But I am happy to talk about Christian extremism today if you would like.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 09:11 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Foofie wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
Have you heard of the Spanish Inquisition?


You are comparing an earlier "phase" of Christianity with an extremism today that does exist in another religion. You are ignoring the time variable, I believe.


You are really making the claim there are no Christian extremists today? We have Radovan Karadic facing war crimes, we have the KKK and like Christian groups gaining membership, not to mention brutal Christian militias from the Middle East to Africa.

It was you who brought up the history of Spain. It is funny you talk about the Golden age as the time under the Moors. Compared to the way the Spanish treated Jews over most of the rest of their dark history, it really was the Golden Age.

But I am happy to talk about Christian extremism today if you would like.


I believe Christian extremism is not as pervasive as extremism in Islam. But, in your last sentence above, should you say "talk about"? I thought you like to debate?

The Golden Age of Spain has nothing to do with Jews. It was the time that Spain had its zenith in science and medicine, all under the Moors.

You may reply with the "last word."
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 09:14 am
Foofie wrote:
I believe Christian extremism is not as pervasive as extremism in Islam.


Interesting. What do you base your belief on?
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 09:17 am
old europe wrote:
Foofie wrote:
I believe Christian extremism is not as pervasive as extremism in Islam.


Interesting. What do you base your belief on?


The continued news reports of terrorist bombings here and there, many times in countries with faiths other than Christian. And, let us not forget the obsession with Israel being a Jewish State.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 09:22 am
If you want to go back to ancient history, Islam was once a religion of enlightenment affording more personal freedom, more interest in the classical arts and sciences and creativity than any other large distinct group afforded. That is not to say that Islam has not always had its more imperialistic side and was not capable of aggressively expanding its dominion. During the same period, Christianity was in the control of religious narrow minded fundamentalists and became intolerant and turned inward and resisted creativity in much of anything. The people were not allowed to interpret the Bible or religious concepts for themselves. Thus the Crusades, the Inquisition, and other evil/ugly practices, instigated by corrupt popes and/or monarchs, were possible within Christianity and were used to expand their reputations or fortunes and/or to keep the people in line.

During the Reformation and the centuries that followed, Christianity has mostly wrested itself from control of the fundamentalists. It may not be recognizable as First Century Christianity, but it is no longer forcibly aggressive and such practices as the Crusades and Inquisition are no longer possible within the general body. (Yes, pockets of the old enforced religiosity persisted for awhile after that, there are always exceptions to be found now, but I'm trusting that the group on this thread would not be so immature as to attempt to use those as evidence of what mainstream Christianity is.)

In the period just before and roughly during the Christian Reformation, Islam on the other hand had its positive emphasis hijacked by rigid narrow minded fundamentalists and it turned inward upon itself. Tolerance and enlightenment gave way to rigid dogma and the people were no longer allowed to interpret the Quran or religious concepts for themselves. Thus you have a large group with pockets of militancy that can be roughly compared to the Crusades and subjection of the people, degradation of women, and enforced religiosity. Had this not occured, I suspect the more enlightened Islam would have conquered the world long ago.

It is important to acknowledge that most Christians were not militant during the worst periods of Chrisitian history, and it is important to acknowledge that most Muslims are not militant now. It is also important to acknowledge that until its evolvement into a peaceful, tolerant religion, Chrisitianity was not tolerant of non-Christians or even Christians who did not subscribe to a particular doctrine. It is important to acknowledge that Islam is often not a tolerant religion now and does impose at least components of its religious beliefs on everybody in every place in which it has gained control.

Having said that, my question remains and it can be answered without even considering any particular religious group. Do you value the best parts of the existing culture in which you live? Would you resist having that usurped mostly or in total by a competing culture that you would find less satisfactory? Should you resist that?
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 09:33 am
Foxfyre wrote:

Having said that, my question remains and it can be answered without even considering any particular religious group. Do you value the best parts of the existing culture in which you live? Would you resist having that usurped mostly or in total by a competing culture that you would find less satisfactory? Should you resist that?


Do not personalize this discussion, by making my opinion some sort of survey.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 09:40 am
Foofie wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

Having said that, my question remains and it can be answered without even considering any particular religious group. Do you value the best parts of the existing culture in which you live? Would you resist having that usurped mostly or in total by a competing culture that you would find less satisfactory? Should you resist that?


Do not personalize this discussion, by making my opinion some sort of survey.


The 'you' here is a generic 'you' addressed to anyone who wishes to participate in the discussion. The only personalization involved is the anecdotal experience or impressions expressed when we attempt to explain our perspective.

I do appreciate that you, Foofie, actually understood the question and have addressed it directly and intelligently, however.

Everybody else seems to be trying to make this some kind of diatribe against or defense of Islam. Or they seem to be focused on demonizing or criticizing anybody who doesn't think there is no problem with a takeover of a culture by Islam (or anybody else) or who even questions whether that would be a good thing.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 09:40 am
Even now I don't understand what all this has to do with "sharia law in Britain".

But nevertheless: I do think that over the centuries all various cultures adopted the one or other thing from the different in that country existing various cultures, like in your home state, Foxfyre:
Quote:
In all of our cultures flows a rich tradition of artistic endeavors and achievements, and we are pleased to benefit from all the expressions that each has to offer, from opera to flamenco, traditional fine art to retablos, classical music to mariachi, del canto singing, ballet and ritual dancing, drumming, ceramics and southwestern style jewelry. All of these expressive traditions - and many more - are ALIVE in New Mexico, and are continuing meeting each other and re-combining into the rich cultural stew that is every New Mexican's birthright.


Certainly, too, I do like some Christian laws still in our 'culture', for instance the special accentuation of a Sunday as THE day in the week without work.
On the other hand, I'm glad that such things like e.g. marriage are handled by public servants in the registry offices and not by churches. (They just do the religious things.)

And that's where Sharia Law comes in the picture again ...
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 09:48 am
"Sharia law' in Britain was intended to be an example of the encroachment of one culture upon another. I used this particular example based on discussions with real life Brits who are actually concerned that their uniquely British culture could be overwhelmed and actually cease to exist as they know it.

Many many other examples could have been used would not have needed to have referenced Sharia law or Islam at all.

So Walter, would you resist an influx of Islam into Germany to the point that Sunday was abolished as a religious day? Or would you think it appropriate to resist having Sunday, a strong tradition in your country, abolished as a religious day?

Again, I don't care to discuss the merits or lack thereof of a traditionally observed religious day. That isn't the point.

The point is, how much of our existing culture do we value sufficiently to preserve it? All? Most? Some? Any?
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 09:52 am
ebrown_p wrote:


But I am happy to talk about Christian extremism today if you would like.


What about slavery? You happy to talk about that??

I mean, you can read about slavery in the Christian world but you have to open a history book to do it. You can read about slavery in the slammite world by picking up a copy of nearly any slammite newspaper, and opening it to the classified section under 'S' for 'Slaves'. In fact you could open it under 'W' just as easily since women are basically slaves in slammite nations as well.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 09:59 am
Foxfyre wrote:
If you want to go back to ancient history, Islam was once a religion of enlightenment affording more personal freedom, more interest in the classical arts and sciences and creativity than any other large distinct group afforded....



I don't really get that reading the history of I-slam. What I get is a picture of a bandit chieftain devising a religion optimally suited for controlling increasingly large confederations of bandit tribes until the world finally moved beyond the bandit-tribe model of society and bypassed the system. The whole thing started going downhill irreversably after the time of Suleiman and would still be going downhill other than for the thing with petroleum.

The most amazing statistic from the middle East is the one which says that with all the oil, per capita income in Saudi is something like $4K vs. over $20K in Israel with no resources at all other than brains and talent. Then again you don't really EXPECT brains or talent in countries where people marry their sisters and girl cousins...
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 10:11 am
Foxfyre wrote:
So Walter, would you resist an influx of Islam into Germany to the point that Sunday was abolished as a religious day? Or would you think it appropriate to resist having Sunday, a strong tradition in your country, abolished as a religious day?


You mean that we have a situation like in the UK, where Sharia Law already in its way?
Or in the USA with its strong Christian-Jewish heritage?

I mostly oppose such due to the tradition of Labour Law. And that's based on our Christian tradition.
It could be any other day, though, but should be one day for (nearly) all and everyone.
Sunday is quite okay, though. As is Easter Monday, Pentecost Monday, All Saints Day, Reformation Day etc - we certainly should add some more.

Foxfyre wrote:
The point is, how much of our existing culture do we value sufficiently to preserve it? All? Most? Some? Any?


I could imagine that "we" think:'All.'
But that doesn't work - 'we' (here: we Germans) even couldn't preserve our language ... it's more and more Americanised.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 10:17 am
I suspect that most of us will cease to exist long before the our respective "unique culture as we know it" ceases to exist.

And, in that regard, British culture as it was known at that time has often, uhm, "ceased to exist". Specifically, when Britain was invaded by the Romans, the French, the Netherlands, by the Barbary pirates, the Norwegians, the Normans or the Danish. Not to mention rather peaceful immigration and settlement.

In turn, a lot - if not most - of what we regard as "uniquely British culture" was actually brought to the island by those "invaders". Starting with the alphabet and the language, the list is quite long. Old British cities are still to be found at the location where they were founded by the Romans - often still using the roads that the Romans have built. The architecture was heavily influenced by the "Viking" invasions, and gradually changed from what the Romans had left behind to what was to become medieval Britain. Christianity was brought to England by Irish monks. The language changed radically following the invasion of good old William in 1066.

All of that, to us, is just as British as Indian and Italian restaurants or Polish EU citizens working in Britain will be to the next generation.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 10:20 am
Well, I always recommend Peter Ackroyd's 'London - the biography' ...
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 10:41 am
walter wrote :

Quote:
Certainly, too, I do like some Christian laws still in our 'culture', for instance the special accentuation of a Sunday as THE day in the week without work.


foxfire replied :

Quote:
So Walter, would you resist an influx of Islam into Germany to the point that Sunday was abolished as a religious day? Or would you think it appropriate to resist having Sunday, a strong tradition in your country, abolished as a religious day?


Laughing
so who abolished sunday as a "religious" day (a day of worship at one time :wink: ) in the USA - and canada ?
i sure hope the nuslims can be blamed for that ! Laughing
hbg

(this thread is more fun than watching a barrel of monkeys - i know , i know , i'm right in the barrel with everyone else - and enjoying it - stole this from maxwell smart , in case anyone is wondering)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 10:48 am
To Gunga, remember that Islam dates back to the 7th Century and up to medieval times it was not the religion then that it has become any more than Christianity is the religion now that it once was.

To everybody else who seems to be unable to relate to anything other than anecdotal illustrations and who seem to be unable to grasp any sort of big picture concept, I'm happy you are at least having fun.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 10:54 am
We're only reduced to discussing anecdotal illustrations because any kind of specific, representative, hard data that has been presented has been brushed aside by people pointing to a vague, unsupported, extrapolated-from-anecdotal-illustrations kind of scare-scenario...
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 11:05 am
old europe wrote:
We're only reduced to discussing anecdotal illustrations because any kind of specific, representative, hard data that has been presented has been brushed aside by people pointing to a vague, unsupported, extrapolated-from-anecdotal-illustrations kind of scare-scenario...


So why don't you/haven't you presented your argument differently than that? I did.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2008 11:15 am
Foxfyre wrote:
old europe wrote:
We're only reduced to discussing anecdotal illustrations because any kind of specific, representative, hard data that has been presented has been brushed aside by people pointing to a vague, unsupported, extrapolated-from-anecdotal-illustrations kind of scare-scenario...


So why don't you/haven't you presented your argument differently than that? I did.


You have presented hard data? Representative polls? Surveys? Anything other than anecdotes and your personal opinion?


It is my recollection that you didn't even know that Turkey had a secular constitution, and, instead, claimed that the Turkish Parliament was accommodating Sharia law.

I've linked these graphs

http://i34.tinypic.com/dea13s.gif

http://i35.tinypic.com/2466dxt.gif

- with links to the survey reports - just a bit ago.

Your response was to talk about a "culture less tolerant, less atuned to human rights, less agreeable to religious freedom, and less willing to allow the people to live their lives and govern themselves unmolested".

Nothing supported by data. Nada.

But of course you'll claim now that that kind of data really is meaningless, that you tried to frame the debate in terms of a bigger picture - right?
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