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AND SO IT BEGINS? SHARIA LAW IN BRITAIN?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:09 am
Actually I was trying to put an addendum on my post when you posted ebeth. What I think the writer was saying is that Bush is wrong to focus on radical militant Islam when the problem is systemically within Islam (and by implication the Quran) itself. Since he didn't elaborate, I'm not sure what he meant about it being the 'west's' fault. Within the context of his thesis he may mean that it was the tolerance of the west that allowed Islam to become to entrenched or he may mean something else altogether.

I have no firm personal convictions either way at this point, but I am thinking on it.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:12 am
Foxfyre wrote:
OE, if you think the article only referenced Arab or Middle Eastern muslims, you either didn't read the article or your reading skills are even more selective than ebrown's.


Yes, the article also talked about Dutch Muslims.


Foxfyre wrote:
I accept that it is your opinion that neither the writer nor I have a clue.


I didn't say that the writer doesn't have a clue.

I also don't think that you are completely clueless. I think it is more wilful ignorance.


Foxfyre wrote:
I have, however, provided some evidence for my opinion.


Your opinion was that "While most Muslims are not terrorists or violent in any way, it is much more difficult to find Muslims who will speak out against terrorism for fear of retaliation".

You've provided no "evidence" for that whatsoever. The article discussed the question why Muslims might not want to speak out against terrorism. It most certainly didn't discuss the 'difficulty' of finding Muslims who are willing to speak out.

How do you rate the difficulty, and how do you know that it is "much more difficult" to find Muslims who speak out against terrorism? Ask a sample of 100,000 Muslims out of the 1.5 billion worldwide if they are in favour or against terrorism, then do the same for Christians, and then write down how many were unwilling to speak out against terrorism?

Quite frankly, I'd love to see a study like that.

However, I don't accept opinion as "evidence" of your allegation - even if it is the opinion of some guy writing in the NYT or the Herald Tribune.


Foxfyre wrote:
You have provided none for yours.


My opinion is merely that your opinion is ridiculous.


Foxfyre wrote:
And you still haven't answered my questions to you.


I considered answering them, but after your continuous pestering I seriously can't be bothered to go back and reply to a post that merely contained allegations dressed up as questions about an absolute non-issue in the first place.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:14 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Since he didn't elaborate, I'm not sure what he meant about it being the 'west's' fault.


Re-read the article. He's pretty clear.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:16 am
Given it's a 3 year old article from the International Herald Tribune, you might be able to find something more current by the same author that is more helpful to you.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:21 am
Try this.

I wonder if we could get Slappy to contribute to this, as he's recently returned from Turkey - or Freeduck, who has recently returned from Morocco.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:22 am
No, it wasn't clear to me ebeth. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you see in it that I apparently missed. I didn't link the article as 'proof' of anything but simply as an illustration of the kinds of things that I have read that have formed my opinion on this subject, an opinion that OE considers ridiculous. It very well may be, but so far absolutely nobody has given me any credible reason to change it.

By the way, my daughter is just recently back from Morocco. I'm pretty darn sure that she didn't have any discussions on Muslims speaking out against Muslim terrorism however. I would be amazed if Slappy or Freeduck did either.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:26 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Quote:
You have provided none for yours.


OE wrote
Quote:
My opinion is merely that your opinion is ridiculous.



Foxfyre wrote:
Quote:
And you still haven't answered my questions to you.


OE wrote
Quote:
I considered answering them, but after your continuous pestering I seriously can't be bothered to go back and reply to a post that merely contained allegations dressed up as questions about an absolute non-issue in the first place.


Okay. You'll probably appreciate that I probably won't bother answering yours in the future then. I mean since my questions are only about non-issues and any opinion I express will be ridiculous and all. Do have a nice day.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:30 am
Why not ask your daughter? It would be interesting to hear her first-party report.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:36 am
Foxy, this is your opinion, as posted earlier:

Foxfyre wrote:
While most Muslims are not terrorists or violent in any way, it is much more difficult to find Muslims who will speak out against terrorism for fear of retaliation if any part of the Quran is criticized or disputed.



Seriously, let's assume I'd claim this:

"While most Christians do not torture or are violent in any way, it is much more difficult to find Christians who will speak out against torture for fear of retaliation if any part of the Bible is criticized or disputed."

As "evidence", I would then link to an article discussing the fact that moderate Christians in China don't speak out against torture of prisoners for fear of sanctions.


If you don't see the problem with that, I can't help you. And I also can't force you to answer my posts.

Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:40 am
ehBeth wrote:
Why not ask your daughter? It would be interesting to hear her first-party report.


I don't need to because we have had detailed discussions on her trip and, if that had been a component, she would have mentioned it. I am not in the habit of asking casual acquaintances about their religious or political views. Are you?
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:43 am
I wouldn't have thought you considered your daughter a casual acquaintance.

In any case, I do talk about politics and religion with any number of people. It's one of the things I quite like to do out here IRL. I've got good role models Cool
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:51 am
ehBeth wrote:
I wouldn't have thought you considered your daughter a casual acquaintance.

In any case, I do talk about politics and religion with any number of people. It's one of the things I quite like to do out here IRL. I've got good role models Cool


My reference was that would not ask somebody in another country if they are speaking out against Muslim terrorism and I believe I am safe in saying that neither would my daughter. If you do, I would classify you as pretty unusual in that regard; and I would also raise my eyebrows if you should bring that up with me in an incidental encounter. My daughter is quite the world traveler and does freely share her travel experiences with us. The only unpleasant incident she has reported regarding Muslims was when she inadvertently wandered alone into a Muslim neighborhood in France and described that as a hostile and threatening experience.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:56 am
Foxfyre wrote:
ehBeth wrote:
In any case, I do talk about politics and religion with any number of people. It's one of the things I quite like to do out here IRL.


If you do


I just told you that I do.

Perhaps I'm lucky in living and working in a wonderfully diverse community. I've got neighbours and colleagues from many cultures and backgrounds. I spent Canada Day with neighbours. One family is Muslim, the other Orthodox Christian. We talk about religion and politics as we talk about all sorts of things. I don't find that many people have a difficulty with it.

I talked about politics and religion with a Muslim taxi-driver taking me home from a Christmas party last year. No big deal. He seemed to quite enjoy our discussion.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 11:48 am
ehBeth wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
ehBeth wrote:
In any case, I do talk about politics and religion with any number of people. It's one of the things I quite like to do out here IRL.


If you do


I just told you that I do.

Perhaps I'm lucky in living and working in a wonderfully diverse community. I've got neighbours and colleagues from many cultures and backgrounds. I spent Canada Day with neighbours. One family is Muslim, the other Orthodox Christian. We talk about religion and politics as we talk about all sorts of things. I don't find that many people have a difficulty with it.

I talked about politics and religion with a Muslim taxi-driver taking me home from a Christmas party last year. No big deal. He seemed to quite enjoy our discussion.


Perhaps you misunderstood that I was talking about casual incidental encounters ebeth? I do not consider neighbors that I know well enough to spend a holiday with to be in that category. And yes, I do have
discussions on all sorts of subjects with cab drivers, bus drivers, etc. though it is generally them who introduce a potentially controversial subject. In casual conversation I am not inclined to bring up a potentially controversial subject with people I do not know well. If you do fine. But I would consider you one rather unclassy broad if you presumed to question me, a stranger, about whether I would speak out against Muslim terrorism while we share a bus ride or inspect merchandise in a store.

It is not these kinds of scenarios that is under scrutiny here, however. It is the general propensity of people to appropriately make public their views whether it is about global warming or drilling in ANWR or voter ID or police brutality or international Muslim terrorist activities. Perhaps if we focused on that we might actually address the issue.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 02:17 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
By the way, my daughter is just recently back from Morocco.


Really? How'd she like it? I'm curious if she picked up on the author's distinction between Islam as lived and Islam as advertised.

Quote:
I would be amazed if Slappy or Freeduck did either.


Well, we did talk a lot about politics, both American and Moroccan. Moroccans that I know (surprise!) don't like terrorism but do love Obama.

I hope your daughter enjoyed herself. Maybe she'll take you some time.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 02:33 pm
Christians have and will continue to kill for their beliefs. In the summer of 1992, Dr. David Gunn was the subject of "wanted posters" distributed by Operation Rescue. Then, on Sunday, March 7, 1993, things took an ugly twist:

Quote:
On Sunday, at a service attended by protest organizers and participants, Griffin [Michael F. Griffin, who was to shoot Dr. Gunn] reportedly asked the congregation to pray for Gunn's soul.

"He asked that the congregation pray, and asked that we would agree with him that Dr. Gunn would give his life to Jesus Christ," said John Burt, an organizer of today's protest and a lay preacher at Whitfield Assembly of God Church.

"He wanted him to stop doing things the Bible says is wrong and start doing what the Bible says was right," Burt told reporters.

"There's talk of making protesting abortion clinics a felony. If you start talking about that, people are just going to find other ways of dealing with it," Burt said.

On Christmas Day 1984, two doctors' offices and a clinic in Pensacola were bombed by abortion foes who were convicted and imprisoned.


Source at the Washington Post

On the morning of Thursday, March 11, 1993, Griffin approached the clinic and shot Dr. Gunn to death in full view of the anti-abortion prosters. From the same article:

Quote:
Steve Powell, an employee at an office park where the clinic is located, told reporters that Griffin singled out the physician as his target, chased him and shot him at point-blank range.

Powell said the protesters acted strangely after the shooting. "It looked like they were just happy," he said.


A little more than a year later, also in Pensacola, Dr. John Britton and his escort, James Barrett, were shot to death outside an abortion facility, by Paul J. Hill, an excommunicated Presbyterian minister. He had been excommunicated after stating publicly that he was the new national spokesman for abortionist killers (i.e., those who kill abortion doctors). He was affiliated with the Army of God, who later made a hero of him. The Army of God issed a statement after the murder which read:

We the undersigned, declare the justice of taking all Godly action necessary, including the use of force, to defend innocent human life (born and unborn). We proclaim that whatever force is legitimate to defend the life of a born child is legitimate to defend the life of an unborn child

We declare and affirm that if in fact Paul Hill did kill or wound abortionist John Britton, and accomplices James Barrett and Mrs. Barrett, his actions are morally justified if they were necessary for the purpose of defending innocent human life. Under these conditions, Paul Hill should be acquitted of all charges against him.


Hill was convicted and executed for the murders.

In December, 1994, two abortion clinic receptionists were killed in Brookline, Massachusetts. They were killed by John Salvi, whose mother stated that her son had told that he "was the thief on the cross with Jesus." Salvi was found dead in his cell after being convicted, and it was ruled a suicide, although his lawyers claimed there was evidence that he had been beaten, and in fact had been murdered. The sentencing judge then overturned Salvi's conviction, because Salvi had died before his appeal could be filed.

Eric Rudolph, whose bombing of an abortion clininc in Birmingham, Alabama killed and off-duty police officer who worked there as a security guard. Rudolph, who also planted the bomb at Atlanta's Centennial Olympic park, received two life sentences as a result. Rudolph is sufficiently well known not to need further introduction. Rudolph identifies himself as a Catholic, and was connected with Christian Identity, a white supremacist group which asserts that non-Caucasian people have no souls.

Dr. Barnett Slepian and was shot and killed, in what was the last in a string of shootings at abortion providers in Canada and New York. The shooter in those cases was beleived to be James Kopp, who was convicted of the murder of Dr. Slepian. James Kopp was affiliated with "The Lambs of Christ," a group identified by the National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism as a terrorist organization.

Rachelle "Shelley" Shannon was convicted of attempted murder after shooting Dr. George Tiller outside his abortion clinic in Witchita, Kansas. She had been an anti-abortion activist and had written letters in support of Michael Griffin who killed Dr. Gunn. After being convicted (it took the jury only an hour) of attempted murder, and while incarcerated, Miss Shannon signed the Army of God statement in support of Paul Hill which is quoted above.

Clayton Waagner in 1999 began what he called a mission from God, taking his wife and their nine children across country to attempt to murder an abortion doctor in Seattle, Washington. However, he was arrested in Illinois. He then escaped from the county jail in Illinois where he was being held, and began a new crime spree. In November, 2001, he sent envelopes containing a white powder with a message that whoever had opened the letter had now been exposed to anthrax--he sent these letters to more than 500 abortion clinics. He was convicted of this crime in 2003. Waagner is also affiliated with the Army of God, and continues to correspond with members of the group from his prison cell in the Federal penitentiary in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania.

In addition to obvious groups such as the Ku Klux Klan (with their burning crosses), there are christian terrorist groups which are both anti-abortion and white supremecist, such as Christian Identiy, Identity Doctrine, the Army of God, the Aryan Nations, and the Christian Patriots. Timothy McVeigh, notorious for the Oklahoma City bombing, has admitted to being an adherent of the christian patriotism doctrine, and to involvement in Christian Patriot activities.

***********************************************************

Now the christians here are going to whine about how these people aren't true christians. In that case, one can simply assert that Muslim terrorists aren't true Muslims. But more to the point, one can point to the literally centuries of murder and warfare between the Catholics and Protestants of Northern Ireland. One can point to the Serbs, who consider that they are justified to murder other people and carry out ethnic cleansing because those others are Muslims or Catholics. In fact, the Croats and the Serbs both speak the same language, the only differences between them being that the Croats use the Roman alphabet while the Serbs use the Cyrillic alphabet, and the Croats are Catholic, while the Serbs are Orthodox. The Serbs would love to invade Croatia (again), but they have pretty well reconciled themselves to the notion that they'd get their collective ass handed to them.

When you get right down to it, most christains live in the modern industrial world, and have a great deal to lose if they were to become involved in "holy war." The most populous Muslim country in the world is Indonesia, and there has been little significant Muslim terrorist activity in Indonesia, which is one of the more successful nations of the "third world," and where, once again, most of the population has something to lose. In southwest Asia and south Asia, however, many Muslims live in poverty, many on the knife edge of survival. They have little to lose, and given the successful propagandizing of militant leaders, combined with stupidity such as the invasion of Iraq, it doesn't take much to convince them to take violent action on behalf of the warped agenda of the warped mullahs who manipulate them.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 03:04 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
But I would consider you one rather unclassy broad if you presumed to question me, a stranger, about whether I would speak out against Muslim


I think I'd be more likely to ask you about Christian activism as a casual acquaintance (as you originally phrased it).
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 03:14 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
By the way, my daughter is just recently back from Morocco.


Really? How'd she like it? I'm curious if she picked up on the author's distinction between Islam as lived and Islam as advertised.

Quote:
I would be amazed if Slappy or Freeduck did either.


Well, we did talk a lot about politics, both American and Moroccan. Moroccans that I know (surprise!) don't like terrorism but do love Obama.

I hope your daughter enjoyed herself. Maybe she'll take you some time.


Maybe she will. We both love to travel. She was there in early June.

I doubt you questioned the average shop keeper or man on the street in Morocco about their views on terrorism however. Or maybe you did. Maybe I'm the only one here that would consider that quite inappropriate to do.

My daughter is not your typical tourist wherever she goes as demonstrated by her winding up in that Muslim neighborhood in France. She gives cursory attention to the touristy kinds of things and then does her best to get off the beaten path to see what the rest of a place is like. Her impression of Morocco is that the touristy places look pretty good. Off the beaten path she found a whole lot of abject poverty and misery, enough to bother her a lot.

She would like to go back but only as part of a task force to do some hands on relief work.

What was your impression.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 03:18 pm
ehBeth wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
But I would consider you one rather unclassy broad if you presumed to question me, a stranger, about whether I would speak out against Muslim


I think I'd be more likely to ask you about Christian activism as a casual acquaintance (as you originally phrased it).


Maybe so, but I have little more experience with that than I do Muslim terrorism, though I do have a bit, but I would still consider it a rather odd and inappropriate subject to bring up. But as I mentioned to Freeduck, maybe I'm the one out of step here thinking it inappropriate to bring up subjects like that with strangers.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 04:09 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Maybe she will. We both love to travel. She was there in early June.


Me too. It was good weather then, hope she had a good time.

Quote:
I doubt you questioned the average shop keeper or man on the street in Morocco about their views on terrorism however. Or maybe you did. Maybe I'm the only one here that would consider that quite inappropriate to do.


No, I talked with family and friends and I am pretty sure they did not consider it inappropriate.

Quote:
My daughter is not your typical tourist wherever she goes as demonstrated by her winding up in that Muslim neighborhood in France. She gives cursory attention to the touristy kinds of things and then does her best to get off the beaten path to see what the rest of a place is like. Her impression of Morocco is that the touristy places look pretty good. Off the beaten path she found a whole lot of abject poverty and misery, enough to bother her a lot.


Well good, that means she got to see the real thing. There is plenty of poverty -- I think the misery does not always come with it.

Quote:
What was your impression.


Well, I first went to Morocco in 1999, I think. So my impression is one of progress with reservations. I dont know that I can go into my reservations without derailing the thread further, but suffice it to say that progress does not always affect all populations equally. We were talking about people, muslims in particular, and I think that Moroccan people in general are a great example of Islam as lived and I (always have) felt very welcome and safe there. I didnt conduct a poll, but the people I talked with about it abhor terrorism.
0 Replies
 
 

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