Fear of a Black President

Advocate wrote:

CI, a good example are oil companies, which receive tax expenditures of various sorts, despite reaping windfall profits.

cicerone imposter wrote:

Precisely! Guess who gains most from those subsidies? CLUE: It's not the middle class or the poor.

And what's so often passed over is who actually owns the resources. It ain't the government, nor is it the oil/mining/whatever companies.

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JTT wrote:

Advocate wrote:
CI, a good example are oil companies, which receive tax expenditures of various sorts, despite reaping windfall profits.

cicerone imposter wrote:
Precisely! Guess who gains most from those subsidies? CLUE: It's not the middle class or the poor.

And what's so often passed over is who actually owns the resources. It ain't the government, nor is it the oil/mining/whatever companies.

It's whomever owns the rights, which could be the government or the oil/mining/whatever companies. It could be private citizens who lease the rights to O/M/W companies, or it could be developers who sell the land with houses to individuals, but retain the oil/gas/mineral rights.

I suspect you have something else in mind. Who owns the resources? Humanity?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Precisely! Guess who gains most from those subsidies? CLUE: It's not the middle class or the poor.

And who owns the oil and gas companies?

If you have a 401K, you do!
If you own stock in any type of oil company or gas company or any other energy company, you do!
If you have stock in any type of chemical or plastics company, you most likely do!

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It's the ratio of ownership.

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But that's probably too spacial for you to understand.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

hbg, Your post reminded me of something I read many decades ago about a flat tax; that taxing "all income" at 15% for everyone will do away with all the tax codes, and all tax returns can be handled on a postcard. Not only that, but the government will get enough funding for all the programs that was in existence at that time plus a surplus.

Just imagine; no more IRS or tax accountants that reduce everybody's income just to figure out our taxes.

I would be in favor of a flat tax. But 15% is much too high for the rate.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Precisely! Guess who gains most from those subsidies? CLUE: It's not the middle class or the poor.

Unless you take into consideration that lower corporate taxes allow companies to hire more people instead of sending their money to D.C.

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Well, no, in practice what it usually means is that it enables their CEOs to demand higher compensation packages, more perks, and huge performance bonuses that they get regardless of whether the company takes it to the bank or tanks.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

But that's probably too spacial for you to understand.

What is that supposed to mean?

Who do you think owns these resources?

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It's not so much who owns them as who controls them, and that's almost never the stockholders (unless you're Carl Icahn and come in to rape it, dismember it, and make a cool couple hundred mill for yourself and f-ck everyone else), but rather the CEO and his coterie and sometimes the Board of Directors.

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Finn, How much "control" do you have of any company you own stock in?

One? Ten? 100? Oh, none, you say! Not surprising.

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Non-uniform tax rates imposed on individual incomes violate the USA Constitution, "the supreme law of the land."

All ranting and raving about what the law ought to be is irrelevant. Non-uniform tax rates on personal incomes are illegal.

If the total of individual American annual gross incomes--zero deductions and zero exemptions--were 15 trillion dollars, a uniform tax rate on indivual income of 10% would produce an annual federal revenue of 1.5 trillion dollars. That's half the current federal budget. However, more than half the federal budget funds services and gifts of money not authorized by the USA Federal Constitution.

More explicitly, the cost of establishing justice, insuring domestic tranquility, providing for the common defense, promoting the general welfare, and securing the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity is less than 1.5 trillion dollars.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Finn, How much "control" do you have of any company you own stock in?

One? Ten? 100? Oh, none, you say! Not surprising.

How much control do I have of any company I own a share in?

I am not prevented from selling some or all of my shares or buying more anytime I want. Also I can vote for members of their Board of Directors. More importantly, none of these companies can assess me more than what I freely choose to invest.

How much control do I have over any of the several levels of government I own a share in? All the control I have is exercised via my periodic votes. Each of the levels of government can and do assess me more than what I would otherwise freely choose to invest. If I don't pay those assessments, I am fined and/or jailed.

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ican711nm wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Finn, How much "control" do you have of any company you own stock in?

One? Ten? 100? Oh, none, you say! Not surprising.

How much control do I have of any company I own a share in?

I am not prevented from selling some or all of my shares or buying more anytime I want. Also I can vote for members of their Board of Directors. More importantly, none of these companies can assess me more than what I freely choose to invest.

How much control do I have over any of the several levels of government I own a share in? All the control I have is exercised via my periodic votes. Each of the levels of government can and do assess me more than what I would otherwise freely choose to invest. If I don't pay those assessments, I am fined and/or jailed.

*****
Of course you can buy and sell any stock you wish; that's not control of the company by any stretch of your imagination - no more than your one vote that controls our government and what they choose do. If you think your ownership of stock has influence, you're living in la-la land.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

ican711nm wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Finn, How much "control" do you have of any company you own stock in?

One? Ten? 100? Oh, none, you say! Not surprising.

How much control do I have of any company I own a share in?

I am not prevented from selling some or all of my shares or buying more anytime I want. Also I can vote for members of their Board of Directors. More importantly, none of these companies can assess me more than what I freely choose to invest.

How much control do I have over any of the several levels of government I own a share in? All the control I have is exercised via my periodic votes. Each of the levels of government can and do assess me more than what I would otherwise freely choose to invest. If I don't pay those assessments, I am fined and/or jailed.

*****
Of course you can buy and sell any stock you wish; that's not control of the company by any stretch of your imagination - no more than your one vote that controls our government and what they choose do. If you think your ownership of stock has influence, you're living in la-la land.

You overlooked my main points:

Businesses: No private company can assess me more than what I freely choose to invest.

Governments: Each of the levels of government can and do assess me more than what I would otherwise freely choose to invest, and if I don't pay those assessments, I am fined and/or jailed.

Also, I, together with other share holders, can influence the businesses in which we invest by the threat we will sell our shares if we no longer like what they are doing. But we cannot influence government by our refusal to vote or pay taxes.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

ican711nm wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Finn, How much "control" do you have of any company you own stock in?

One? Ten? 100? Oh, none, you say! Not surprising.

How much control do I have of any company I own a share in?

I am not prevented from selling some or all of my shares or buying more anytime I want. Also I can vote for members of their Board of Directors. More importantly, none of these companies can assess me more than what I freely choose to invest.

How much control do I have over any of the several levels of government I own a share in? All the control I have is exercised via my periodic votes. Each of the levels of government can and do assess me more than what I would otherwise freely choose to invest. If I don't pay those assessments, I am fined and/or jailed.

*****
Of course you can buy and sell any stock you wish; that's not control of the company by any stretch of your imagination - no more than your one vote that controls our government and what they choose do. If you think your ownership of stock has influence, you're living in la-la land.

I am sure that the Mellons and the Rockefellers are quaking in fear.

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Businesses: No private company can assess me more than what I freely choose to invest. I, together with thousands or even millions of other share holders, can influence the businesses in which we invest by the threat we will sell our shares if we no longer like what or how they are doing.

Governments: Each of the levels of government can and do assess me more than what I would otherwise freely choose to invest. If I don't pay those assessments, I am fined and/or jailed. We cannot influence government by our refusal to vote or pay taxes, if we no longer like what or how they are doing.

Businesses seek profits! Governments seek power. I trust businesses more than I trust governments.

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ican wrote: Businesses: No private company can assess me more than what I freely choose to invest.

You really don't understand the liability you have with stock ownership. I suggest you do some homework before you make a fool of yourself.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

ican wrote: Businesses: No private company can assess me more than what I freely choose to invest.

You really don't understand the liability you have with stock ownership. I suggest you do some homework before you make a fool of yourself.

Cice, Either state the liability you think I have with stock ownership, or cut the malarkey.

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ican wrote :

Quote:

Also, I, together with other share holders, can influence the businesses in which we invest by the threat we will sell our shares if we no longer like what they are doing

the really big boys will often anticipate a coming stock sell-off and sell their shares before the less agile (small) investors do .
so the ones trying to sell in a falling market will often take a beating (the small investors) .
thereafter the so-called "undertakers" will often come in to pick up the remainder of a corporation for a song - it seems to happen often enough .

as far as "high taxes" are concerned , you and like-minded citizens are free to found a party that promises low taxes and a balanced budget .
i'm reasonable sure that if you can provide citizens with some personal guarantee that your system will work , enough citizens will put you and your party/compatriots into power .
all you have to do is figure out how you can sell enough eligible voters on your idea and you've got it made .
the question you would likely be asked : how can you guarantee that your idea/system will be of benefit to the individul ?
wishing you much luck (seriously !) .
hbg

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