2
   

Fear of a Black President

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 02:56 pm
Obama talks tax and expenditure increases. He has said he wants to increase the tax rate on those who have more, and increase expenditures to those who have less. If he succeeds in doing what he says he'll do, he will turn us further away from the rule of law and closer to the rule of a USA version of Chavez.

It looks like McCain will compromise with a Democratic Congress to do somewhat less than the same thing.


Bush's tax cuts were inadequate. He should have tried to convince Congress to make the tax rate the same for each and every tax payer's dollar. Doing that would have discouraged increasing expenditures.


The only rational way to cut today's federal budget deficit is to cut today's expenditures. I recommend that all those expenditures not authorized by the USA Constitution be cut to zero. For example expenditures that are transfers of wealth from one constituency to another are not authorized by the USA Constitution.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:06 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
But Obama has many more good qualities other than the tan.

Yes, and he has many bad qualities other than the "Jimmy Carter."
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:06 pm
ican711nm wrote:
I recommend that all those expenditures not authorized by the USA Constitution be cut to zero. For example expenditures that are transfers of wealth from one constituency to another are not authorized by the USA Constitution.


Sure. And while you're at it, strike expenditures for the US Air Force, too. Billions of dollars. Not authorised by the Constitution...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:23 pm
The US Constitution specifies national defense as a mandatory function of the federal government.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:25 pm
old europe wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
I recommend that all those expenditures not authorized by the USA Constitution be cut to zero. For example expenditures that are transfers of wealth from one constituency to another are not authorized by the USA Constitution.


Sure. And while you're at it, strike expenditures for the US Air Force, too. Billions of dollars. Not authorised by the Constitution...


This is nothing more than a cultural misunderstanding.

In the US, 'defense' is a word used to describe military.

In some parts of Europe, it is used to describe the purchase of white flags.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:27 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
The US Constitution specifies national defense as a mandatory function of the federal government.


It also provides for spending for the health and welfare of the people.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:34 pm
Advocate wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
The US Constitution specifies national defense as a mandatory function of the federal government.


It also provides for spending for the health and welfare of the people.


Nothing is said about health.

Things that promote the 'general welfare' are discussed.

Confiscation of 1/7 of the US economy (the health care sector) to run it as a government entitlement for citizens and non-citizens alike (Obama's program WOULD extend free health care to illegal aliens) would not IMHO 'promote the general welfare' of the nation.

Judging by the reaction the last time this approach was attempted (Hillarycare ver. 1993, including criminal penalties for those who dared purchase health care out of their own means) , most of the country agrees with me.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:40 pm
old europe wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
I recommend that all those expenditures not authorized by the USA Constitution be cut to zero. For example expenditures that are transfers of wealth from one constituency to another are not authorized by the USA Constitution.


Sure. And while you're at it, strike expenditures for the US Air Force, too. Billions of dollars. Not authorised by the Constitution...

Quote:
The Constitution of the United States of America
Article I.
Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
To establish post offices and post roads;
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

You are right! Congress was not specifically authorized by the USA Constitution to separate the Army Air Corps from the Army and call it the Air Force. That can be corrected by by either ending the separation of the Army Air Corps from the Army, or, more simply, by changing the title of the Air Force to the Army Air Force. That change is constitutional under the clause: "To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;"

Write your congress man or congress woman!

On the other hand, it could be argued that the separation of the Army Air Corps from the Army and calling it the Air Force is nothing more than a making of "rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces."
:wink:
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:42 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
The US Constitution specifies national defense as a mandatory function of the federal government.


Well, the Constitution has provisions regarding land and naval forces, but nothing regarding an Air Force. Probably because that didn't exist back then, but anyhoo, ican suggested to defund anything not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution.

If your position is a somewhat looser reading of the Constitution which includes the Air Force in the "provide for the common defense", then it's hardly a stretch to include social programs in the "general welfare of the United States".


Pick one.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:46 pm
real life wrote:
Judging by the reaction the last time this approach was attempted (Hillarycare ver. 1993, including criminal penalties for those who dared purchase health care out of their own means) , most of the country agrees with me.


Considering polls like this one regarding the situation of the health care system in the United States, it's very unlikely that you have any kind of idea of what "most of the country" agrees with whatsoever...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:49 pm
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
The US Constitution specifies national defense as a mandatory function of the federal government.


Well, the Constitution has provisions regarding land and naval forces, but nothing regarding an Air Force. Probably because that didn't exist back then, but anyhoo, ican suggested to defund anything not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution.

If your position is a somewhat looser reading of the Constitution which includes the Air Force in the "provide for the common defense", then it's hardly a stretch to include social programs in the "general welfare of the United States".


Pick one.


No there is no provision in the Constitution for airplanes, absolutely certainly because they didn't exist then, but neither is there provision for tanks or armored personnel carriers or K rations or light bulbs either, but there is provision for the national defense. As air defenses can be launched from land or sea, it is pretty well covered.

There is zero authority in the Constitution to provide the general welfare or any other form of charity however. Every President and Congress prior to FDR understood and adhered to that too.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:53 pm
That means all the public schools, roads, Department of Health, and the Social Security Administration can be eliminated.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:53 pm
'Change' is needed in the US health care system, no doubt about it.

But the solution is less government , not more, in most cases.

The most obvious exception would be a law prohibiting non-insurance companies from offering insurance plans (i.e. the so-called 'self insured' plans that most large employers use to skirt consumer protections mandated by law )

Government cost shifting is the cause of most health care related inflation.
Government purchasers of health care services place a limit on what they will pay, refusing to pay the market rate for services.

The resultant shortfall is then shifted to those who pay for their own health care, either out of pocket or thru insurance.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:54 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
There is zero authority in the Constitution to provide the general welfare or any other form of charity however.


Well, I'm not an American, but I'm fairly sure that there was something about the "general welfare" in the Constitution....
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:55 pm
Advocate wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
The US Constitution specifies national defense as a mandatory function of the federal government.


It also provides for spending for the health and welfare of the people.

Quote:
The Constitution of the United States of America
Effective as of March 4, 1789
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
...
Article I.
Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:55 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
That means all the public schools .... can be eliminated.


Schools are usually the function of LOCAL government , CI.

Ever heard of the county, the city governments?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:58 pm
real life wrote:
'Change' is needed in the US health care system, no doubt about it.

But the solution is less government , not more, in most cases.



Good to see you coming around on this one.

I'm sure the details can be argued. Whether a virtually entirely state run system like Britain's NHS or a virtually completely private universal health care system like the Swiss one would be better is anybody's guess, and arguments can be found for and against either one (or any other system).
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 03:59 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
The US Constitution specifies national defense as a mandatory function of the federal government.


It also provides for spending for the health and welfare of the people.

Quote:
The Constitution of the United States of America
Effective as of March 4, 1789
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
...
Article I.
Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;



Sooo..... are you agreeing or disagreeing with Advocate?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 04:02 pm
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
There is zero authority in the Constitution to provide the general welfare or any other form of charity however.


Well, I'm not an American, but I'm fairly sure that there was something about the "general welfare" in the Constitution....


Yes there is. In the Preamble to be exact:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

The Articles themselves go on to define authority for military service with the President as Commander in Chief to defend the nation. But the operative word for national defense is provide. Because the Founders put such high importance on personal freedoms and right to private property, they were very careful to phrase it promote the general Welfare, not provide it. They would have seen it as immoral and tyrannical to confiscate property from Citizen A and give that to Citizen B. And so it was interpreted by all Presidents and Congresses thereafter until FDR started a snowball rolling that eventually turned that concept on its ear.

"Promote" means that the government will not interfere with and shall enact laws and policies and regulations that will encourage private enterprise and well being. It was never intended that the government provide that.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 04:03 pm
old europe wrote:
real life wrote:
'Change' is needed in the US health care system, no doubt about it.

But the solution is less government , not more, in most cases.



Good to see you coming around on this one.

I'm sure the details can be argued. Whether a virtually entirely state run system like Britain's NHS or a virtually completely private universal health care system like the Swiss one would be better is anybody's guess, and arguments can be found for and against either one (or any other system).


How 'bout letting individuals make their own choices whether they want to be part of any 'system' at all?
0 Replies
 
 

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