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Supreme Court Awards Habeas Corpus To Guantanamo Detainees

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jun, 2008 08:20 pm
oralloy wrote:
What is the basis for accusing these tribunals of being kangaroo courts?

Before the military commissions, detainiees have no right to choose their own lawyer. There is no lawyer/client confidentiality. Detainees have no right to know the evidence against them. Testimony under torture can be used against them. My source for this is the detainee treatment act and the military commissions act. I'd cite the specific clauses, but 1) I'm too lazy and 2) there is no way of citing the clauses that should be in there, but aren't.

These military commissions are kangaroo courts.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jun, 2008 09:15 pm
Thomas wrote:
oralloy wrote:
What is the basis for accusing these tribunals of being kangaroo courts?

Before the military commissions, detainiees have no right to choose their own lawyer. There is no lawyer/client confidentiality. Detainees have no right to know the evidence against them. Testimony under torture can be used against them. My source for this is the detainee treatment act and the military commissions act. I'd cite the specific clauses, but 1) I'm too lazy and 2) there is no way of citing the clauses that should be in there, but aren't.

These military commissions are kangaroo courts.


Check what the military's own lawyers said, and hang your head, at the very least, in shame, oralnut.



And don't ask me to provide you urls.....I have dome so all over this site for years.


Do some work yourself while you support torture, lawlessness, criminal behaviour by your government (as assessed by your own supreme court).


Then grovel.

Idiot.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jun, 2008 09:38 pm
And, since dlowan just showed up, I feel I should add that when I say "kangaroo courts", I don't mean that in an anti-Australian way.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jun, 2008 11:10 pm
oralloy wrote:
More like in the government's opinion. They are the ones who plan to charge about a third of them with war crimes.


It's easy to hide behind something as amorphous and anonymous as "the government." For whatever anyone in government may allege, and no matter what the nature of the tribunal, know one knows to a legal certainty how many people may be guilty of "war crimes." Your original statement was that about a third are war criminals. Since when did you become judge and jury?

That's propagandizing, and that's why i have become increasingly disgusted with your didactic tone and the all too commonly ex cathedra nature of your remarks.

Quote:
The war on terror will be over when al-Qa'ida and the Taliban have been annihilated.


Once again, you speak as though with the voice of authority. Who appointed you god? This sort of thing is usually determined by Congress, not by an anonymous member of a discussion board. Given that, in 2001, al Quaeda and the Taliban were both in Afghanistan and Waziristan/Pakistan, what the Hell was the point of invading Iraq? Had we prosecuted that war as though we really cared about a putative "war on terror," it might have been resolved by now.

Of course, then PNAC could not have had their cherished invasion of Iraq with the chance to attempt to place permanent American military bases there.

Quote:
The Israelis do know how to fight extremist Islamic militants. We should listen to them more often.


Bullshit--tell me about what a wonderful job they did with Hezbollah. You always speak as thought the sun shone out of the collective Israeli ass. The only thing i've seen Israel do in my lifetime is rack up a longer and longer list of extremist Muslim fanatics bent on their destruction. They haven't accomplished squat in ridding the world of the problem, they've simply exported it to Europe and North America.

What did they do about the PFLP and the PLO? Oh yeah, they let them back into their former homeland, and are now doing a dance attempting to avoid their responsibilities from General Assembly Resolution 181 of November, 1947, which authorized the creation of the state of Israel. Had they attempted to show some good faith 60 years ago, they wouldn't have half--not a quarter of the problems they have today. The rest of the world would be a lot better off, too.

This is some of your worse bullshit yet, but i already knew you'd be prepared to indulge in any distortion or tell any lie which limns Israel in a flattering light.

Quote:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91461526

"Also, the government has said roughly one-third of the detainees are not dangerous and have been approved for release to their home countries, but those countries don't want them, nor does any other country seem to want these people whom the U.S. once characterized as the worst of the worst."


So, you have a source for exactly one of your three contentions. Note once again "the government has said." It may be true, but citing unnamed government spokesmen is not evidence that it is so.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2008 12:47 am
Thomas wrote:
My first impression, after very diagonal reading of the opinions:

1) I don't have much patience with Roberts's dissent, arguing that the military tribunals at Guantanamo Bay are an adequate substitute for federal courts as a processor of habeas corpus petitions. These commissions are kangaroo courts, and Roberts is disingenuous in pretending otherwise.

2) I do take Scalia's dissent serious though. He argues that prisoners of war never enjoyed habeas corpus privileges, so the plaintiffs never had a privilege for Congress to suspend in the first place. It may well be one of those opinions whose consequences I don't like as a point of human rights policy, but should have carried the day as a point of constitutional law.

3) There is no doubt that the Court's opinion is the one I want politically and morally. And Kennedy spends a lot of time arguing against Scalia's objections that habeas rights for prisoners of war do not extend the reach of the writ beyond its historically established boundaries. I'll have to examine the opinion more closely, and I hope Kennedy's historical arguments turn out to be sound.


I don't think they do, but admit I have not read the opinion in it's entirety but, for now, searched it based on the key word "Eisentrager" : Johnson v. Eisentrager, 339 U. S. 763 (1950), which held that a US court could not exercise habeas jurisdiction over alien enemy combatants held beyond US soil.

My initial reading is that Kennedy is distinguishing this case from Eisentrager primarily on the basis of "the practical obstacles inherent
in resolving the prisoner's entitlement to the writ."

As always, Scalia's writing is as scathing as it is brilliant:

Quote:
"And today it is not just the military that the Court elbows aside. A mere two Terms ago in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, 548 U. S. 557 (2006), when the Court held (quite amazingly) that the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 had not stripped habeas jurisdiction over Guantanamo petitioners' claims, four Members of today's five-Justice majority joined an opinion saying the following:



Turns out they were just kidding."


There are no shortage of the ignorant who argue that the Writ of Habeas Corpus is sacrosanct and that whenever it is thwarted (e.g. Lincoln's actions during the Civil War) it is an egregious violation of our constitutionally protected liberties.

They are, however, clearly unfamiliar with the Suspension Clause which holds:

Quote:
"The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."


At least the Majority was not among the ignorant, however their refusal to accept, in this case, suspension seems to be based on a concern for separation of powers.

Quote:
"the writ of habeas corpus is itself an indispensable mechanism for monitoring the separation of powers," the test of its extraterritorial reach"must not be subject to manipulation by those whose power it is designed to restrain."


Again Scalia

Quote:
"What competence does the Court have to second-guess the judgment of Congress and the President on such a point? None whatever. But the Court blunders in nonetheless. Henceforth, as today's opinion makes unnervingly clear, how to handle enemy prisoners in this war will ultimately lie with the branch that knows least about the national security concerns that the subject entails."


Aside from the simple fact that it is difficult to imagine how the issue of habeas corpus and alien enemy combatants might ever amount to an assault on separation of powers, (particularly when this president has been acting in accord with legislation passed by Congress), this broad statement is capable of justifying just about any far reaching decision by the Court.

You need to read Roberts' dissent rather than just the AP quote from it. It goes well beyond asserting that the military tribunals are more than fair for these scumbags.

This decision is going to result in the release of men who wish to kill Americans.

Erroneous, prior releases of some 30 others of their ilk have resulted in additional acts of terrorism and murder, despite the fact that they were not considered to be threats.

Some of the remaining detainees are being held simply because no nation on earth will accept them.

Why should another country welcome these threats simply because Justice Kennedy sided with the reliably liberal wing of the court to get their collective panties in a wad about the rights of alien, illegal enemy combatants captured and detained beyond US soil?

Of course they won't and so some court somewhere will rule that we have to let them go into the mainstream of America. What will they do then? Get a job in a Quiky-Mart and pursue the American Dream?

Who will be responsible when they kill Americans in an airport, a mall or by the side of the road?

As Lincoln (that great tyrant) once said: The Constitution is not a suicide pact.

(Or was it Justice Jackson?)
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2008 03:14 am
Thomas wrote:
Before the military commissions, detainiees have no right to choose their own lawyer.


That is incorrect. Their lawyer will first have to pass a background check in order to receive clearance to view secret documents (and of course will have to be a qualified American lawyer in good standing), but subject to those restrictions they can bring in whatever lawyer they want.



Thomas wrote:
There is no lawyer/client confidentiality.


There is nothing to that effect in any of the rules for the military tribunals.



Thomas wrote:
Detainees have no right to know the evidence against them.


That is incorrect. The tribunals will allow limited redaction of sensitive classified details, but the defense is allowed to see all the evidence brought before the court.



Thomas wrote:
Testimony under torture can be used against them.


Coerced testimony may be used, but only if the totality of the circumstances renders the coerced statement reliable and possessing sufficient probative value.

Testimony deemed to be derived from torture is prohibited.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2008 03:16 am
dlowan wrote:
Check what the military's own lawyers said, and hang your head, at the very least, in shame, oralnut.



And don't ask me to provide you urls.....I have dome so all over this site for years.


Do some work yourself while you support torture, lawlessness, criminal behaviour by your government (as assessed by your own supreme court).


Then grovel.

Idiot.


Your inability to contribute anything intelligent to the thread is duly noted.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2008 04:16 am
Setanta wrote:
oralloy wrote:
More like in the government's opinion. They are the ones who plan to charge about a third of them with war crimes.


It's easy to hide behind something as amorphous and anonymous as "the government." For whatever anyone in government may allege, and no matter what the nature of the tribunal, know one knows to a legal certainty how many people may be guilty of "war crimes." Your original statement was that about a third are war criminals. Since when did you become judge and jury?


I'm confident the government would not plan to charge them with war crimes without good reason. But I'm amenable to referring to them as "alleged war criminals who face prosecution".



Setanta wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The war on terror will be over when al-Qa'ida and the Taliban have been annihilated.


Once again, you speak as though with the voice of authority. Who appointed you god?


I don't need to be God to take note of who the enemy is in the war on terror.



Setanta wrote:
Given that, in 2001, al Quaeda and the Taliban were both in Afghanistan and Waziristan/Pakistan, what the Hell was the point of invading Iraq?


The first discussion of invading Iraq in response to 9/11 seemed to use the argument that we needed to go break something in order to remind people who was boss (though they didn't put it quite as crudely as I just did):

http://web.archive.org/web/20011006220636/biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010923/nysu001a_1.html

It is possible that that wasn't the real motive though. If it wasn't, I'd venture that the real motive was to transform Iraq into a stable Islamic democracy that was friendly to the US (something like Turkey).



Setanta wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The Israelis do know how to fight extremist Islamic militants. We should listen to them more often.


Bullshit--tell me about what a wonderful job they did with Hezbollah.


I was satisfied with the level of damage they inflicted on Lebanon. I mean, it wasn't 1945-Dresden or anything, but they blew plenty of stuff up.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2008 05:59 am
oralloy wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Before the military commissions, detainiees have no right to choose their own lawyer.


That is incorrect. Their lawyer will first have to pass a background check in order to receive clearance to view secret documents (and of course will have to be a qualified American lawyer in good standing), but subject to those restrictions they can bring in whatever lawyer they want.



Thomas wrote:
There is no lawyer/client confidentiality.


There is nothing to that effect in any of the rules for the military tribunals.



Thomas wrote:
Detainees have no right to know the evidence against them.


That is incorrect. The tribunals will allow limited redaction of sensitive classified details, but the defense is allowed to see all the evidence brought before the court.



Thomas wrote:
Testimony under torture can be used against them.


Coerced testimony may be used, but only if the totality of the circumstances renders the coerced statement reliable and possessing sufficient probative value.

Testimony deemed to be derived from torture is prohibited.



Just for reference:

Military Commissions Act of 2006:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/law/mil_commissions_act2006.pdf


Manual for Military Commissions:
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/manual-mil-commissions.pdf


Regulation for Trial by Military Commissions:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2007/Reg_for_Trial_by_mcm.pdf
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2008 07:47 am
This was a good decision long in coming in my view. Smile
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2008 08:01 am
oralloy wrote:
That is incorrect.

If you say so.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2008 08:05 am
oralloy wrote:
I'm confident the government would not plan to charge them with war crimes without good reason. But I'm amenable to referring to them as "alleged war criminals who face prosecution".


How very accommodating of you. Your original statement neither acknowledged the government as the source, nor that charges are alleged as opposed to proven or assumed. The tone of your posts in this thread, and in others dating back quite a way has been to assume that the detainees are where they belong for good reason.

As for your confidence in the probity of the government, i would either say you are being disingenuous or hopelessly naive. But, personally, i'm ever the optomist--perhaps i could interest you in a slightly used, but very lucrative bridge.

Quote:
I don't need to be God to take note of who the enemy is in the war on terror.


But you'd need to be Congress to determine that we are at war, and with whom--yet you continue to speak in an ex cathedra tone--it gets pretty damned tedious.

Quote:
The first discussion of invading Iraq in response to 9/11 seemed to use the argument that we needed to go break something in order to remind people who was boss (though they didn't put it quite as crudely as I just did):

http://web.archive.org/web/20011006220636/biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010923/nysu001a_1.html

It is possible that that wasn't the real motive though. If it wasn't, I'd venture that the real motive was to transform Iraq into a stable Islamic democracy that was friendly to the US (something like Turkey).


Your source lists a few people discussing a strike at Iraq to put the fear of God (That's God--"U" "S" "A"--God) into them, not to invade and occupy them. Note that Perle and Quayle are quoted. Both are/were founding members of the Project for a New American Century, which had as one of its initial premises an invasion of Iraq in order to establish permanent American military bases in southwest Asia. I'd send you to the PNAC web site for confirmation, but it's no longer operable--it seems they haven't been paying their bills. You can look at the Wikipedia article on the PNAC, however.

We don't have any right under international law, and are in violation of the United Nations principles to which the Senate agree (remember, we started that dog and pony show) if we attack nations just to scare them, and we are in violation of international law and United Nations principles if we invade them on false pretexts just to set up friendly governments, or build military bases.

Once again, your faith in the rectitude of neo-con policies displays a charming naivete--are you sure i can't interest you in that bridge?

Quote:
I was satisfied with the level of damage they inflicted on Lebanon. I mean, it wasn't 1945-Dresden or anything, but they blew plenty of stuff up.


Hey, Cowboy, i've got a news flash for you--killing a lot of Lebanese civilians and destroying Lebanese infrastructure does not constitute effective action against Hezbollah. Hezbollah is not Lebanon, and the Lebanese people as a whole are not responsible for what Hezbollah does, and should not necessarily suffer for it.

However, you allegation was that the Israelis are effective against extremist Muslim militants. They did not destroy Hezbollah. They did not take out Hezbollah leadership. They did not destroy the Hezbollah broadcasting system. They did not end Hezbollah participation in the Lebanese governemnt, and they have done nothing to prevent political and armed threats against the Lebanese government by Hezbollah. In fact, many people consider that their stupid and failed war strengthened the position of Hezbollah.

The Israeli press does not agree with you, and there has been widespread criticism that the war was mismanaged, and the ranking Israeli general either was fired or retired with a push.

Believe it or not, satisfying your desire to see innocent people bleed and die is not evidence of an effective action against militant Muslim groups.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2008 02:05 pm
Of course the Bush administration knew all along that the inmates deserved, at some point, the benefit of habeas corpus. But, being slick operatives, they placed the inmates at Gitmo, figuring that they could argue that Gitmo was Cuba, where the inmates wouldn't have habeas corpus rights. This contention would never stand inasmuch as the USA had complete control of Gitmo, making it essentially part of the States.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2008 04:01 pm
Lebanon sheltered and supported Hezbollah. At the start of the war, a top official in the Lebanon government said that Hezbollah is Lebanon.

Israel (rightfully) severely damaged Lebanon, making it clear that it would pay a price for its support of Hezbollah. Moreover, the Leb government and people know that this would be repeated by Israel should Hezbollah, based in Lebanon, continue to attack Israel.

It is interesting to note that Hezbollah has not mounted any significant attacks against Israel since the end of the war.

In view of the above, it is ridiculous to contend that Israel lost the war.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2008 04:08 pm
Here is an excellent discussion of the issues.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/06/12/boumediene/
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2008 01:21 am
Having now read (well, skimmed thoroughly) the opinions in Boumediene v. Bush, here are some of my thoughts:

First, for all of you non-lawyers out there, a short course on the writ of habeas corpus. This is an action on behalf of a prisoner to question the legality of that prisoner's incarceration. Historically, it has been used to prevent the government from holding an accused without charging him/her with a crime. It is one of the few civil rights that is mentioned specifically in the constitution (as opposed to its amendments), which highlights its importance as a check on arbitrary governmental power.

Secondly, a bit of history. In the Hamdi v. Rumsfeld (2004), the supreme court (SCOTUS) said that the government had to afford a detainee, captured overseas and imprisoned in Guantanamo, some meaningful due process rights to challenge his detention. In response, the department of defense instituted combatant status review tribunals (CSRTs) to comply with the court's decision in Hamdi. Subsequently, some detainees brought habeas corpus actions challenging their detention at Guantanamo. In Rasul v. Bush (2004), the SCOTUS held that the detainees could bring such actions in federal court.

In response to Rasul, congress passed the Detainee Treatment Act (DTA), which stripped the federal courts of their jurisdiction to hear habeas petitions from Guantanamo prisoners. In Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, however, the SCOTUS said that the DTA didn't cover habeas petitions that had already been filed before the passage of the act. So congress passed the Military Commissions Act (MCA), which prohibited the federal courts from hearing any petitions for habeas corpus involving "enemy combatants" held by the government. Undeterred, the petitioners in Boumediene brought a habeas action challenging their detention as enemy combatants.

The government made two arguments: (1) Boumediene and his fellow petitioners couldn't bring habeas petitions at all, because they were aliens being held at Guantanamo, which isn't American territory; and (2) even if the constitutional guarantees of habeas corpus applied to Guantanamo, the MCA effectively stripped the federal courts of jurisdiction to hear those petitions. In response, the SCOTUS held: (1) the protections of habeas corpus applied to Guantanamo; and (2) the MCA operated as an unconstitutional suspension of the writ of habeas corpus, and so it could not deprive the federal courts of their jurisdiction.

In reaching its decision on the first point, the court reached waaaay back into its precedents. In particular, the court clarified some of the more obscure points of the Insular Cases (1901) -- a handful of decisions so obtuse and confusing that they were famously lampooned by Finley Peter Dunne's Mr. Dooley, who remarked that "no matther whether th' constitution follows th' flag or not, th' supreme coort follows th' iliction returns." The majority opinion said, in effect, that whether constitutional guarantees applied to foreign territory (and everyone, it seems, agreed that Guantanamo was foreign territory) would be decided on a "functional" basis -- i.e. based on the totality of the circumstances. In the majority's opinion, the US maintained such a complete and indefinite control over Guantanamo that prisoners held there were entitled to the constitutional protection of habeas corpus ("...the United States, by virtue of its complete jurisdiction and control over the base, maintains de facto sovereignty over this territory"). And since congress never formally suspended the writ of habeas corpus, Boumediene was entitled to file a petition for the writ.

The next question, then, was whether any federal court could hear Boumediene's petition. The government argued that the MCA prevented the courts from hearing such petitions, and the district court, which first heard this case, agreed. The SCOTUS, however, reversed that holding. Relying on Hamdi, the majority ruled that the protections afforded by the DTA and the MCA were not the equivalents of habeas corpus. Consequently, the provision of the MCA stripping the federal courts of jurisdiction acted as an unconstitutional suspension of the writ of habeas corpus.

The first part of the majority's opinion, regarding the "extraterritoriality" argument, seems correct -- indeed, the Bush administration's bizarre attempt to create a constitutional "twilight zone" at Guantanamo has never really passed the "straight face test." What's mildly surprising is that the government's position garnered four votes (including Roberts and Alito, who were not on the court at the time of the Hamdi decision). Scalia (Roberts's opinion doesn't address the extraterritoriality argument) contends that there has never been a rule that enemy combatants on foreign territory enjoyed the right to petition for habeas relief in time of war. As he states: "the privilege of habeas corpus does not extend to aliens abroad." Kennedy's point, though, is that Guantanamo isn't really "abroad."

The second part of the majority opinion, addressing the constitutionality of the MCA's jurisdictional provisions, is a bit more confusing. Oddly, neither the majority nor the dissents mentioned Ex parte McCardle (1868), another case where congress passed a statute limiting the court's jurisdiction in a certain class of habeas cases. In McCardle, the SCOTUS meekly obeyed when congress stripped it of jurisdiction, although it held out the possibility that a law might be unconstitutional if it suspended "the whole appellate power" of the courts in cases of habeas corpus.

Instead of addressing the jurisdictional question head-on, the majority argued that, under the constitution, congress can only suspend the writ of habeas corpus in certain limited circumstances: i.e. "in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion [when] the public Safety may require it." With the MCA, however, congress didn't suspend the writ, it just attempted to create a process that was an adequate substitute for it (following the court's direction in Hamdi). But in Boumediene, the SCOTUS held that congress didn't get it right -- the MCA's protections weren't good enough to stand in for the protections afforded by habeas corpus. Absent from the majority's opinion, however, is the question of whether the court could even consider that argument, given that the MCA stripped it of its jurisdiction. Interestingly, the plurality in Hamdan considered the McCardle precedent with regard to the jurisdictional provisions of the DTA, but said that it was unnecessary to reach that argument at that time. On the other hand, Scalia, in his dissent, explicitly raised McCardle and its progeny in arguing that the court had no jurisdiction to consider the substantive issues raised in Hamdan. Why Scalia didn't raise this argument again in Boumediene is, to me, something of a mystery.

The bottom line: the Bush administration is now 0-for-4 in supreme court decisions regarding the detentions at Guantanamo. Boumediene will open the doors of the federal courts to all of the detainees, which, in effect, means that most of them will go free. The administration will loudly and vigorously blame the court, but the responsibility for failing to deliver any sort of justice to those detainees lies squarely on the administration's shoulders. It has no one to blame but itself.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2008 05:07 am
joefromchicago wrote:
The bottom line: the Bush administration is now 0-for-4 in supreme court decisions regarding the detentions at Guantanamo. Boumediene will open the doors of the federal courts to all of the detainees, which, in effect, means that most of them will go free. The administration will loudly and vigorously blame the court, but the responsibility for failing to deliver any sort of justice to those detainees lies squarely on the administration's shoulders. It has no one to blame but itself.


I don't see how habeas proceedings means most will go free.

The government will certainly have to justify holding them, but if they say "here is proof that this guy was an enemy fighter -- we are therefore holding him as a POW until the end of the war" that should be enough to justify his detention (presuming of course they actually prove the guy was an enemy fighter).

Also, they are trying to deliver justice to some of them through the military tribunals.

Of course, some of them the government knows are innocent civilians, and would gladly free and deport them if only a country would accept them. I can see the courts freeing those, maybe. But the courts would have to figure out a place to deport them to.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2008 05:12 am
Setanta wrote:
However, you allegation was that the Israelis are effective against extremist Muslim militants. They did not destroy Hezbollah. They did not take out Hezbollah leadership. They did not destroy the Hezbollah broadcasting system. They did not end Hezbollah participation in the Lebanese governemnt, and they have done nothing to prevent political and armed threats against the Lebanese government by Hezbollah. In fact, many people consider that their stupid and failed war strengthened the position of Hezbollah.


Israel probably could have done more damage had they moved in in greater force on the ground, but I'm personally satisfied with the damage that Israel achieved.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2008 05:37 am
Quote:
I hope you brought candles. Habeas corpus is 792 years young.
The habeas story began in England's Runnymede meadow on June 15, 1215, when dissident English nobles forced King John to sign the Magna Carta, a contract limiting the power of the king in exchange for his right to rule. John later rejected the charter, prompting a civil war, but the contract would become one of the greatest legal documents in history
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2008 06:55 am
oralloy wrote:
I don't see how habeas proceedings means most will go free.

If the government had enough evidence to justify holding the detainees, it would have already tried them under the procedures established by congress. The fact that the government hasn't completed a single trial under those procedures is, I think, a pretty good indication that it doesn't have the evidence. I suspect that it will also become apparent, if the federal courts start hearing these habeas petitions, that much of the evidence the government does have came through torture or other impermissible means -- which is why I think the government would rather release the detainees (or transfer them back to their home countries) than allow them to file those petitions. Of course, I also expect the Bush administration will do everything to delay the judicial proceedings until January of next year, at which time President Obama will be left with the job of freeing most of the detainees.
0 Replies
 
 

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