Personal Thread

Wow.

How long were you and Anastasia together? I don't think I realized it was more than 2 years.

"Were."

How are you doing? How is she doing?

Ah ... the start-up period was kinda difficult to pin down in terms of dates. ;-)

We first got together in Feb 2001, but tha' was more like an affair. Well, it was an affair (Abuzzers might remember). Saw each other again in August ... became official "gf/bf" around ... the time of the Esterhazy palace thing. Almost two years ago. And she came to live here at the start of last year.

She moved all her stuff into her new room today. Its also in Utrecht. As said, we took it there with a transport bike, she me and a friend of hers (the friend she's been staying with the past week). Its a nice enough room, with a Turkish family. Kinda small, kinda really expensive - which means she had to get an extra job - not a cushy job - which means she cant do her volunteers work anymore - but the room's cute. And she can still go to classes - if she feels up to it. She wants to stay around - though legally, she's not allowed, residency permit is through me, so the room and all is "black".

Both of us are terrified. We still see each other pretty much every day - she comes here for her after-work joint and relaxation, and usually is still around when I come home from work. 's Probably going to be less now. We're real sweet - until we start discussing, and then we get real upset. I get so upset. I dont ever want to feel like that anymore. The other day I was in Amsterdam and I got lost on a street I know well enough - just didnt know where to go, anymore. Kept freezing into place, moving a street down, sitting down in utter confusion.

Both of us have a pretty tenuous hold on sanity, anyway. For me its all kinda new, I used to be pretty much fully sane, 's just the stress became too much, and I collapsed under it. Whereas she's progressively come to face and control her demons, over the course of the years, and better herself, all the time. The combination kinda puts us pretty close to each other's state of mind, these days.

Worst is, I dont talk to anyone about it. I just cant, anymore. We've been through so many crises, so many things more intense than anything I've ever been through - my family and friends were there, to catch us if we fell - so many times - by now, I just feel I cant bother them anymore with any of this. I'm just ashamed. So I havent really talked with anyone about any of this.

I did all I could. It helped, but not enough. I couldnt make her happy - she kept feeling hurt - and kept feeling it at stuff I did, I said, too.

Now she wants to come back - she wants to be together again, even if not like we were before. Says she sees things now, that the person who broke up with me was the scared, little girl inside, who sabotages her every move to a better, healthier life. But I dont know. I felt so bad.

I tried so hard - did everything our respective therapists said, followed up on what she asked me, I almost lost myself - then I found myself again, started doing things in a more healthy way - we talked so often, formulated what needed to be done, agreed this was the way forward - and she still bolted. Still felt pain too unbearable to tolerate. What can I do? If even this didnt work, what can happen to make it work next time?

I just really want to be able to be myself. That's all I want: to be myself - and that that's good enough.

Yeah.

At the very least it sounds like you need to be yourself for a while, and she can be herself for a while, and then perhaps things will reach enough equilibrium that something more mutually beneficial can be reached.

But I also understand how hurtful keeping any possibilities open can be.

Hugs to both of you.

Ya were too early - I only just finished editing the above. ;-)

(Is this annoying habit I have - Preview doesnt work for me. Normally noone will be there before I finish anyway)

Thanks.

I never posted about any of these things ... because everybody here knows Anastasia. I mean, its gotten to be my place, kinda - but still, people know her from Abuzz. I dont wanna talk about her, like that. There's also that thing, like - if you break up you want to talk with your own friends, people who are on your side - however childish a reaction that may be. Here, its not like that.

Did it again <finished editing>

I re-read, still "Yeah."



I just wrote about an ex on another thread, and this brought to mind how confounded my dad was when he helped me move out... there wasn't enough room in the car for him, me, ex, and stuff, so I sat on ex's lap while we went (somewhere, don't remember where), and we joked and were affectionate in a general way and my dad sat there glowering. It wasn't the PDA as much as he wanted to just hate the ex (I wuz wronged) and I was acting all confusingly. I had already told off the ex, strongly (breakup itself) but found that 2 years of everyday intimacy is tough to just switch off; very easy to fall back into.

Well, I mean we didnt break up because we didnt care enough for each other - more like the other way round (co-dependency and all that). We're angry at each other for a lot of stuff that happened - but we also always chose to stay and work on them, because of all the good things, and there were many (or those that were there were deep, in any case).

I've been ready to throw in the towel - and just ... run - many times, but I never did, I always decided to soldier on, that it was worth it. This time Stasia broke - and she says it was just that day, and i shouldnt have taken it seriously, shouldnt have taken it for real - shouldve realised that thats just the kind of thing someone in her state will do. But all I know is I found a note saying "I'm breaking up with you" when I got ready to go to work, and listened to her all night explaining why she had to go, and why it wouldnt work anymore. I purposefully didnt go home that night to convince her to stay, or to send her away - I wanted to hear what she'd have to say. And she made a convincing argument.

Look, I understand what's driving her - what the emotions are, the things that kick her as she tries to carve out a life - I've been in there, for these past two years. I understand ... I'm not angry. I mean, I'm angry about loads of things, of course, but fundamentally, I'm not angry. She's just doing what she needs to do. And considering the odds she's beaten in getting this far in life from where she came - if you love her, you just gotta see that she's gotta do what she's gotta do.

I love her very much - she loves me very much. That part aint changed. No reason to suddenly get bitchy to each other, at all. Just the together, it doesnt seem to (have) work(ed). And now I dont know what to do. Thats why I'm spending so much time on A2K these last few days - back irl, I just dont know where to go. I'm sure some point in time I'm gonna go forward (with my own life) - or back - but at the moment either option seems to strike me as sheer folly.

<sad>

nimh, I think what is interesting about this game is learning more about people's lives. "You did that, really? Tell me more!"

So this seems as good of a place as any. I really doubt that Sofia minds (though of course won't presume to speak for her.)

I understand what you're saying about IRL. Feel free to discuss here, or via PM if you'd prefer.

The knowing both parts of a couple thing is interesting, isn't it? You guys had pretty much moved on from Abuzz when I first showed up... I ran into you occasionally later, but felt like I got to know you here. I got to know Anastasia, too, of course, if to a lesser extent, and like her a whole lot.

Anyway, this has to be a terrible thing to get through... so much time, emotion, energy invested... and know that I'm more than happy to listen.

Yeh, i think that was kinda what i was going for <winks> (Vain, vain, vain, nimh ;-).


Yeh - I was just going to post something 'bout that. Cause it was really kinda out of character for me to get all personal on this thread here (though I did on Abuzz all the time - funny, that) - and also it wasnt exactly the best place, I guess.

I mean, I already said a whole lot - but yeh, if anyone feels like talking back, that'd be very welcome, of course. But I guess PM would be better, true. I mean, I know I was really "I dont wanna talk about it" when I first broke the news - I'm all, 'just get back to the topic!' <grins>. But still, Rae sent me a message and that was really nice (thanks Rae ;-).


Well, she's very cool <smiles>.

I guess at times I've been kinda intimidated by the first impression she makes on others - I mean, she's very vocal, very expressive and personal, very straight-up, witty and street. Some people we meet get positively fascinated by her (though some, again, probably kinda decide, better keep a little distance ... ;-).

At least at one occasion it made me feel a little bad ... because we have this (gay) neighbour whom we both really like, and he's been really nice to us - but he's obviously intrigued by her, and after he came over for dinner one night, I just felt positively - uninteresting, unattractive. And that kinda effect at times has made me feel a little wary about airing my feelings, cause on the one hand I felt that they would sympathise with her, in any case - I mean, considering her story and the first impression she makes and everything. While on the other, opposite hand (well, the other hand usually is the opposite one, I guess <grins>), I also really didnt want to say anything that could leave any unsound kind of image of her whatsoever. Because I really wanted my friends to like her and embrace her, so she wouldnt be alone in this new country she came to for me, after all - I needed them to not think stuff of her, so I really told very little of anything that happened to others (though thats to my standards, & i'm usually pretty chatty).

OK, I'm babbling again - phaps better not on-thread, huh. <nods>

You're welcome.

How is nimh doing?

Oh this is so sad. I'm sorry nimh, extend my best wishes to stasia if you're up to it.

I've been through this kind of thing myself - both the co-dependent relationship and the trying-to-work-it-out breakup - and know how deeply disruptive it can be to a person. It's agonizing to even think back to those times in my history.

Ya know - i saw a reference to the bike/moving and didn't twig to what it meant.

And I'm stuck. I know I want both of you to be healthy and happy. Maybe it can be together. Maybe it will be as friends. I'm glad that you're trying to be smart about it. Horribly difficult, being smart about heart stuff. I wish we could all just go *** poof*** and make it all the way it's supposed to be. Whatever that is.

Maybe it's time for a big comfy couch. Or a visit at a friendly kitchen table.

<smiles, kinda>

yes, definitely. for something like that.

i'll be back. hafta go to sleep.

and yes, li'l k, i'll tell stasia - no problem.

Pleasant dreams, sir.

Poof. I like poof. Hmmmmm.....

So sorry to hear about this, nimh. Nothing else I can offer.

nimh is not doing so good. well, mostly nimh's been here. on a2k, that is. that is not a good sign.

what does nimh do? he debates. the finer points and more general sweeps of topics trivial and weighty - and when he doesnt know, he looks up, and surfs, and summarizes. thats all fine and dandy. but he does nothing else. because he doesnt feel there's anything else he can do. is able to do, right now.

i guess the rational mind has the strongest engine, still driving on like nothing happened while all other life systems have gone into snooze mode, at best, hopefully not being corrupted while they're "out". everything's ... off.

i wish i knew what to do. i don't. whichever scenario i think of, this way or that, i get terrified. there seem to be only bad choices. the result is an inability to make any.

i learned, some time ago, that if you really dont know where to go, it can be wise to just sit down for a while, and go nowhere. that seemed wise. but this is no longer choice. i'm sitting down, eyes closed, hands to ears. i - dont - want - to - be - here.

the scary thing is not getting scared, or confused, or feeling like little boy lost (buh-nee). altho thats new. and it still scares me, in itself. its when it happens outside where and when its safe for it to happen. when i'm at my work and just need to - run.

i've been through worse. i'll be ok. i'm sure. i wish i didnt choose to be so alone about it. i have some friends, i got some family. they're there - waiting, kinda. but there's been so - much. been there so often. first with M, 3-4 years ago. then with A., these past two years. i just dont - i just feel i cant come with this stuff again. i guess i'm ashamed.

thats how nimh is doing.

could be better. <grins>


... i like 'poof' too ...

Aw, nimh.

Yeah, your "buh-nee" poem, while quality (I don't think I've commented on it), freaked me out big time. On your behalf I mean. I wasn't sure if it was just a literary exercise, though, didn't want to assume anything.

These communities (Abuzz, A2K), have gotten me through some hairy times. I didn't necessarily let on that they were hirsuite (heh), but just having an escape has been very useful.

Have you seen my "miswanting" thread? Curious about your take on that. Some of the conclusions are comforting when you're in the thick of something awful, though some are annoying, too. "I will NOT get over this. Don't tell me I will." (I don't think you have that attitude, but when I've been in my deepest blue funks, for some reason the last thing I've wanted to hear is that it will pass. Maybe it will, but it hasn't yet today, it won't tomorrow, and don't go trivializing my pain. Ya know.)

At any rate, feel free to vent, share, or debate finer points (you've been doing your usual stellar job on the debates I've been looking in on), or conversely go to PMs if you don't feel like having it all out there for anyone to see. While I doubt that your friends and family are actually fatigued with listening, me and Rae and probably many others are definitely willing to listen.

Hugs.

If I recall, is nimh also a Virgo like me? I thought I saw that in the September Babies thread. I am not much for the PM thing, so I am posting here. I feel airing things out publicly does a mind good. I know you probably as much as I know Anastasia, simply by your posts here. I also recognize your relationship pattern, as it sounds like Mrs. cav and I: The Early Years. There was trouble, conflict and ugliness, but we got over it.

Just from your very personal posts here, it is clear where your heart lies. You and Anastasia even post in a similar manner with the <grins> and all. While sorting things out in my own marriage (which has turned out quite happy) we learned a few things together. One was that arguing is counterproductive, but the sentiments behind it are not, on both sides. So...how to communicate? We had to reinvent the argument. We made a pact. Given that neither of us are in the other's head, we cannot deny or dismiss the other's feelings or emotions, and both of us are free to express them as they come up. First rule: however strange or off-base, we respect each other's feelings. If something feels 'off' about the other person, we ask questions before reacting. Second rule: most arguments have a source deeper than the initial outburst. Tread gently, but think about what started it, why a reaction happened, and work towards what is really going on. Whoever starts it will not be the calm one. Whoever is on the receiving end should be the rock, and it truly goes both ways. Third rule: however exhausting, get to the bottom of things in a civilized manner, and remember that often the 'collective' is greater than it's components (dang, I'm speaking Borg now!) but is often not seen for personal blindness to that. Fourth rule: make-up sex rocks!

nimh, take or leave my post, I'm rambling....it seems clear that there are others here who know more about your story. If you want to PM me with more background, feel free, or if you are uncomfortable, you don't need to. I only have the benefit of my experience to offer, and I am still learning. However, I do know that what I posted saved my marriage.