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Obama supporters: where do you differ from your candidate?

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 08:33 am
Barack Obama's Plan for America, on the subject of trade, insists that "Obama will fight for a trade policy that opens up foreign markets to support good American jobs" and that "Obama will also pressure the World Trade Organization to .. stop countries from continuing unfair government subsidies to foreign exporters and nontariff barriers on U.S. exports."

I suppose it's unrealistic to expect more in campaign literature, but the biggest problem with global trade policy as I see it is how the EU and the US strongarm third world countries into opening their markets for Western exports, while themselves retaining an extensive web of government (esp. agricultural) subsidies and restrictions on imports. That comes down to the richest countries of the world enforcing rules that will make them richer, and the poor countries poorer.

These sentences of Obama's plans fall right in that pattern. I am sceptical about unfettered global free trade myself, but pushing poorer countries to open up while building up your own defenses is the worst of both worlds.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 08:58 am
The section of Obama's Plan for America on fiscal discipline says that "Obama believes that a critical step in restoring fiscal discipline is enforcing pay-asyou-go (PAYGO) budgeting rules which require new spending commitments or tax changes to be paid for by cuts to other programs or new revenue."

I'd oppose Paygo rules. I'd be worried by how such rules can tie the administration's hands and force it into minimalistic government, as they have done at times with state administrations (eg California). I want to avoid the situation where it has to deepfreeze all new progressive policies because of extra war costs, or because Republicans and conservative Democrats have forced through another tax cut. E.g., paygo rules would have made the Economic Stimulus Act of 2008 impossible. At the least, I think the administration should have the possibility to make up in savings one year what it spends extra in the other.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 09:13 am
Still on the subject of fiscal issues, Obama's plan is to "protect tax cuts for poor and middle class families, but he will reverse most of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest taxpayers."

But all this will do is revert you to the status ante quo: back to Clinton-era fiscal policy, which wasnt exactly brave. I would favour going further, and undoing at least some of the massive Reagan-era tax cuts for the top 1%, 2% or 5% of earners as well.

I mean, under Reagan and Bush Sr. the tax rate that the top income earners paid on regular income was slashed from 70%/50% to just 32%. The richest people just got a windfall of money gifted to them, even as programs benefiting working class families and the poor were slashed.

Now that rate is 35%. Reverting Bush's tax cuts would put it back at around 40%, and make it cover a somewhat larger slice of payers. That's still just tinkering compared to what it was before the radical conservative revolution of the 80s.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 09:57 am
Obama's Plan for America is all about fighting wasteful spending. He will "stop funding wasteful, obsolete federal government programs that make no financial sense". He has called for "an end to subsidies for oil and gas companies that are enjoying record profits," the "elimination of subsidies to the private student loan industry which has repeatedly used unethical business practices", and wants to "reduce waste in the Medicare system, including eliminating subsidies to the private insurance Medicare Advantage program".

But the one Department where wasteful spending has truly staggered out of control, the Pentagon, goes unmentioned. Real-dollar spending on defense, adjusted for inflation, is higher now than it was at the height of the Cold War, during Reagan's drive to bankrupt the Soviet Union by forcing it into an arms race, and during the Korea and Vietnam wars.

Nevertheless, soldiers in Iraq have to purchase their own armor, and for years were left lacking enough armored vehicles. Why? Because spending is decided top-down on the basis of a bureaucratic agenda, which seems more geared at meeting the needs of the arms industry than those of GIs. Massive spending is targeted at intensely expensive development of new mass weapons systems that are useless in a fight against low-tech guerrillas or terrorists anyway, and the spending on it is unhampered by any critical testing or oversight.

Obama has the right priorities when it comes to filling the gaps in defense spending, tackling the areas where current Pentagon spending falls short. Increase the number of soldiers. Better training, and adequate time to train. Adequate time off between deployments - no more stringing deployment after deployment until the soldier is a PTSD-afflicted wreck. Proper medical care for veterans: "reversing the 2003 ban on enrolling modest-income veterans [into VA medical care], which has denied care to a million veterans". Add the Democratic-sponsored military bill that McCain opposed, which would have improved the prospects for after-military life, by increasing soldiers' schooling opportunities for example.

Some of these proposals are self-solving: if issues like endless deployments, bad prospects for life after the military, and bad veteran care are solved (and of course, if the President is not the kind of guy that eagerly sends millions into harms' way in a hopeless conflict), more people will be willing to enrol, and it becomes more feasible to increase the army's size. But others beg the question. They cost a lot of money. Money that you can take from domestic policies, or raise taxes for - or that you can take from the massive wasteful spending within the Pentagon. But Obama's Plan for America has a blind spot for the latter. "Obama will give the finest military in the world the support it needs to face the threats of the 21st century," it says, and "He will expand our ground forces [and] develop new capabilities". But unlike with wasteful spending in Medicare or student loan subsidies, not a word is said about it here.
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Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 11:43 am
nimh wrote:

I mean, under Reagan and Bush Sr. the tax rate that the top income earners paid on regular income was slashed from 70%/50% to just 32%. The richest people just got a windfall of money gifted to them, even as programs benefiting working class families and the poor were slashed.

Now that rate is 35%. Reverting Bush's tax cuts would put it back at around 40%, and make it cover a somewhat larger slice of payers. That's still just tinkering compared to what it was before the radical conservative revolution of the 80s.


40% is right to me and I can see no justification (and in fact see it as theft by democracy) to ever tax personal income more than 49%. Do you really think it's right to tax people that extremely? What justification is there for taxing people at 70%?

What's the purpose? What does the country (even the poor) get for that? More money for social programs? Why not just cut the ridiculous defense budget?
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 12:23 pm
nimh wrote:
Obama has the right priorities when it comes to filling the gaps in defense spending, tackling the areas where current Pentagon spending falls short.

...

Proper medical care for veterans: "reversing the 2003 ban on enrolling modest-income veterans [into VA medical care], which has denied care to a million veterans". Add the Democratic-sponsored military bill that McCain opposed, which would have improved the prospects for after-military life, by increasing soldiers' schooling opportunities for example.



I disagree that these are the "right priorities" and you are mixing things that don't necessarily relate to each other. VA funding has nothing to do with the Pentagon. The Dept. of Veterans Affairs is completely seperate from the Dept. of Defense. - their bedgets are entirely seperate so you can't just move money "within the Pentagon" to resolve funding issues.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 01:27 pm
Robert Gentel wrote:
Why not just cut the ridiculous defense budget?

I dont see it as either/or...

fishin wrote:
VA funding has nothing to do with the Pentagon.

I stand corrected. Didnt know that.

Robert Gentel wrote:
The Dept. of Veterans Affairs is completely seperate from the Dept. of Defense. - their bedgets are entirely seperate so you can't just move money "within the Pentagon" to resolve funding issues.

I suppose you could move it as much as you could move funding from, say, welfare spending to defense, or from farm subsidies to environmental protection.
0 Replies
 
Mapleleaf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 01:32 pm
Promising discussion... Exclamation
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 02:09 pm
Mapleleaf wrote:
Promising discussion... Exclamation

So what do you think, Mapleleaf?
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Mapleleaf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 08:55 pm
Obama
Obama is a process approach professional and a communicator. I believe his present language is designed to bring in enough votes to win. Frankly, I am more intrigued with the manner in which he will form his team. I would not be surprised to see a mixed party approach. In addition, I am curious as to whether he might apply some of techniques that were used in raising money as a means of communicating to the citizens.

Not what you expected nimh, but I'm not, as yet, up to providing the details some of you banty about. But it is so helpful to those of us forming opinions and learning details.

Maple
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2008 09:06 am
nimh wrote:
Health care is my main disagreement now. I'd be for a single-payer system, but I realise that this is politically unfeasible right now. But Obama's proposal, which lacks even mandates, seems to me the weakest of the solutions offered by the main Democratic primary candidates.


But Nimh,
Jesse Helms just passed away in a nursing home, according to the news. He had a form of "socialized medicine" for LIFE! He didn't vote FOR it, yet he benefitted from it. The same type of system, they don't want US to have! Don't you just LOVE politics and politicians, who HATE us? I have some very expensive pills, I'll never use, so I've offered them back to my physician, due to a medicine change. I receive "free" medicines, because of my husbands 22 year service to this country, as a retiree, so I've called my attending physician to see if an indigent patient could use them. They've never been opened. He said he's take them! My heart specialist changed one of my medicines and I hadn't gotten to open them. The elderly get nothing but headaches, if they're indigent. Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 07:46 am
I stepped off yesterday, following the FISA capitulation.

Shredding the 4th Amendment is a deal-killer for me. A constitutional law professor voting for this bill is just abominable. Taking an oath to uphold the Constitution and then voting for this bill is a violation. What's the penalty for that?

In a sense Obama's no worse than all the rest of the Democratic jellyfish and corporate shills on both sides of the aisle -- and in the House -- who voted aye. But as presidential nominee and titular head of the party, he could have killed this bill had he so chosen.

And the really pathetic thing is he would have lost nothing by voting for it. It was going down anyway. In that respect it was tailor-made for a Senator to simply to vote their conscience. He was afraid to be painted "soft on terror" in the general; that's the only reason. Frankly I'm sick of this chickenshit response on the part of any Democrat every time someone points and yells "cut-and run"!

Undervoting the presidential contest in Texas -- electoral red as a baboon's ass no matter what -- frees up my conscience as well as my time, energy, and money for downballot races. (I would've done this anyway if Mrs. Clinton had been the nominee; I was for Obama only "to block", as they say on Hollywood Squares).

It's the same reason why I'm canceling my landline with AT&T and my cell service with Cingular. You gotta send a message somehow.
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 08:30 am
PDiddie wrote:
I stepped off yesterday, following the FISA capitulation.

Shredding the 4th Amendment is a deal-killer for me. A constitutional law professor voting for this bill is just abominable. Taking an oath to uphold the Constitution and then voting for this bill is a violation. What's the penalty for that?

In a sense Obama's no worse than all the rest of the Democratic jellyfish and corporate shills on both sides of the aisle -- and in the House -- who voted aye. But as presidential nominee and titular head of the party, he could have killed this bill had he so chosen.

And the really pathetic thing is he would have lost nothing by voting for it. It was going down anyway. In that respect it was tailor-made for a Senator to simply to vote their conscience. He was afraid to be painted "soft on terror" in the general; that's the only reason. Frankly I'm sick of this chickenshit response on the part of any Democrat every time someone points and yells "cut-and run"!

Undervoting the presidential contest in Texas -- electoral red as a baboon's ass no matter what -- frees up my conscience as well as my time, energy, and money for downballot races. (I would've done this anyway if Mrs. Clinton had been the nominee; I was for Obama only "to block", as they say on Hollywood Squares).

It's the same reason why I'm canceling my landline with AT&T and my cell service with Cingular. You gotta send a message somehow.


I'm completely turned off by all of them! Offed AT&T years ago! Now, I know why! I'm still stuck with Verizon, though. Hate them, too! :wink:
0 Replies
 
Mapleleaf
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 10:27 pm
Have any of you been able to identify the people Obama is consulting before he makes some of his broad statements? Right now I know he's casting for votes in the Fall.. How do you separate his vote casting from his gut level beliefs? Can you recommend some speeches or articles?
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2008 07:18 am
Mapleleaf wrote:
Have any of you been able to identify the people Obama is consulting before he makes some of his broad statements? Right now I know he's casting for votes in the Fall.. How do you separate his vote casting from his gut level beliefs? Can you recommend some speeches or articles?

Who says he has to consult with anyone? Cool
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2008 07:20 am
Not articles or speeches; but I can recommend looking at his voting record and his book The Audacity of Hope.

If you don't want to look at his record vote-by-vote, there are many organizations that gauge candidates' voting records. Unfortunately, most of them are partisan organizations with an axe to grind. (The conservative organizations, in particular, somehow always manage to determine that the current Democratic candidate votes on the far left of the Democratic voting bell curve.) There is one noteable exeption, and that's the one I recommend. It's called voteview.com, is run by Keith pole at the University of California in San Diego, and uses an objective, peer-reviewed method based on roll call votes. Voteview finds that Obama's voting record was about average for a Democratic senator. He doesn't belong to the right wing among his Democratic peers, but neither does he belong to the left wing.

As for Audacity of Hope, it may be more reading than than you're willing to do, but it was worth it for me. It's a fairly clear window into how he thinks, and will let you assess both the strength and the limits of his approach to politics. And with that, I'll refrain from further comment and just let you read it yourself.
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2008 07:31 am
Thomas wrote:
Not articles or speeches; but I can recommend looking at his voting record and his book The Audacity of Hope.

If you don't want to look at his record vote-by-vote, there are many organizations that gauge candidates' voting records. Unfortunately, most of them are partisan organizations with an axe to grind. (The conservative organizations, in particular, somehow always manage to determine that the current Democratic candidate votes on the far left of the Democratic voting bell curve.) There is one noteable exeption, and that's the one I recommend. It's called voteview.com, is run by Keith pole at the University of California in San Diego, and uses an objective, peer-reviewed method based on roll call votes. Voteview finds that Obama's voting record was about average for a Democratic senator. He doesn't belong to the right wing among his Democratic peers, but neither does he belong to the left wing.

As for Audacity of Hope, it may be more reading than than you're willing to do, but it was worth it for me. It's a fairly clear window into how he thinks, and will let you assess both the strength and the limits of his approach to politics. And with that, I'll refrain from further comment and just let you read it yourself.

Yours, is a better response! Cool
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2008 04:53 pm
"The idea that the U.S. can "solve" - permanently and decisively - the terrorism problem is an illusion ingrained, perhaps, in the American psyche, which is fond of applying metaphors like "get the job done" to complex realities barely comprehensible to the Western mind. It's as if the making of foreign policy were like plumbing, and it's merely a matter of "fixing" things that somehow got broken. That our own policies caused this breakage in the first place, often directly, is almost never acknowledged, and when it is, the proposed "solution" is guaranteed to worsen rather than alleviate the original problem.

The mistakes of the past cannot be undone, but if we learn from them we can minimize the amount of "blowback" that continues to come at us from all directions. Alas, it appears that, no matter who wins the White House this November, a foreign policy made by those who have learned nothing and regret nothing will remain in place."

~ Justin Raimondo
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2008 05:17 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
"The idea that the U.S. can "solve" - permanently and decisively - the terrorism problem is an illusion ingrained, perhaps, in the American psyche, which is fond of applying metaphors like "get the job done" to complex realities barely comprehensible to the Western mind. It's as if the making of foreign policy were like plumbing, and it's merely a matter of "fixing" things that somehow got broken. That our own policies caused this breakage in the first place, often directly, is almost never acknowledged, and when it is, the proposed "solution" is guaranteed to worsen rather than alleviate the original problem.

The mistakes of the past cannot be undone, but if we learn from them we can minimize the amount of "blowback" that continues to come at us from all directions. Alas, it appears that, no matter who wins the White House this November, a foreign policy made by those who have learned nothing and regret nothing will remain in place."

~ Justin Raimondo

While you're absolutely right, bull-schitt sells!
0 Replies
 
Mapleleaf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2008 05:24 pm
"He was afraid to be painted "soft on terror" in the general; that's the only reason."

I learn a lot by following various threads, but I become uncomfortable when members, in general, state their opinion as the only true reason.
0 Replies
 
 

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