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A Vice Presidental candidate thread.

 
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 04:43 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

One pathetic bunch of politicians in Congress is about all there is to it. And their approval ratings show it.

Did you know that, when the question is specifically about the Democrats in Congress and the Republicans in Congress, the Democrats are getting significantly better approval ratings than the Republicans? Did you know that when people are asked about the Democrats in Congress, specifically, rather than about Congress overall, they get significantly higher approval ratings than President Bush is getting?

I can get the exact numbers if you want...
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 04:51 am
@nimh,
There's no need for that nimh. It makes sense as it is. It's what you would expect.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 06:58 am
@slkshock7,
Why does anyone talk about the surge as if it had anything to do with success in Iraq?

The surge in troops was choreographed to occur simultaneously with bribing insurgents not to fight. The bribes are what worked; the surge in troops had little or nothing to do with dropping the level of violence.

Now that the Iraqi government is not going to continue the payoffs, and are not going to employ these folks in the government, they're talking about taking up arms again.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 07:36 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:

okie wrote:

if we had never seemed to be losing, I don't think the "war is wrong" mantra would have ever been advertised so strongly, and we would still have Democrats bragging about their support of the war.

Nonsense. Many Democrats and certainly most of the liberals and leftists in your country and abroad opposed the war from the start. Sure there have been plenty of turncoats like Hillary as well, but many of us have been like Obama, opposing the war right from when the drumbeat of war was first sounded.


I would add many conservatives, with and without the R. Conservatives used to be against stupid foreign wars and certainly against nation building.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 08:52 am
@okie,
okie wrote :

Quote:
First of all, we still don't know with 100% certainty what was in Iraq and what may have been transported out.


okie :
how much more time will be needed to determine THE REAL - 100 % - TRUTH ?
would you say that another 20 to 30 years might do <GRIN> ?
if YOU want 100 % , you might not live long enough (hope that won't bother you . are you planning on coming back when the 100 % TRUTH will be REVEALED ? ) .
hbg
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 09:08 am
@DrewDad,
drewdad wrote :

Quote:
Why does anyone talk about the surge as if it had anything to do with success in Iraq?

The surge in troops was choreographed to occur simultaneously with bribing insurgents not to fight. The bribes are what worked; the surge in troops had little or nothing to do with dropping the level of violence.

Now that the Iraqi government is not going to continue the payoffs, and are not going to employ these folks in the government, they're talking about taking up arms again.



i was listening to MICHAEL WARE on MSNBC this morning . he's been reporting from INSIDE iraq for a number of years now .
and he said eaxactly what you said .
he added that the old baghdad no longer exists .
it's seems somewhat like belfast where some catholic and protestant sections are still separarted by fences .
hardly anyone takes about these fences anymore , but a recent BBC report talked to some of the children living and playing (that is , throwing stones across) near the fences - there still seems plenty of hatred - how sad !
hbg

link to a report from may 2008 re. belfast fences :
http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2008/05/04/in_belfast_fences_are_still_best_neighbors/

Quote:
By Shawn Pogatchnik
Associated Press / May 4, 2008
BELFAST - Lee Young, 8, and Cein Quinn, 7, live barely 200 yards apart, but they have never met, and maybe never will.

more stories like thisLee is Protestant, Cein a Catholic - and their communities in Belfast's west inner city are separated by a wall called a peace line. It's nearly 40 years old and 40 feet high.

Ten years after peace was declared in Northern Ireland, one might have expected that Belfast's barriers would be torn down by now. But reality, as usual, is far messier. Not one has been dismantled. Instead they've grown in size and number.



0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 11:03 am
@nimh,
During the run up to resumption of the Gulf War, there were many justifications for it, not just one or two simple, easy to understand points. Saddam's Iraq was in fundamental violation of the cease-fire conditions, and had been for many years. Saddam's Iraq went out of its way to frustrate the open weapon's inspection it agreed to, and fostered the idea that Iraq had, or was actively pursuing forbidden WMDs. Saddam's Iraq was openly sponsoring international terrorism by making payments to terrorists, and urging on their efforts. The indications were strongly indicative that Iraq under Saddam remained a security danger to the region. Incidentally, it was widely known that Saddam's administration was was engaged in widespread torture, and mass murder. Saddam had tried to have the American President assassinated. There were indications that Saddam was negotiating with at least France and Russia for materials and equipment whose purposes appeared to be intended for improving their military capacity. Saddam was evading control over the countries exports by smuggling oil out of the country.

The UN had repeatedly failed to pull Saddam's fangs. In the wake of 9/11 The Administration believed that Saddam's Iraq had played some part in the attacks. Apparently that was incorrect, but it was a natural mistake that many within the world's military and intelligence communities firmly agreed with. American's wanted to strike back at the Radical Islamic Movement that had carried out the attacks, but that movement is international in scope and secretly supported and sponsored by the populations of SW Asia. Though the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi citizens and a product of Saudi religious schools, the Saudi Government was clearly not supportive of the attack. Afghanistan's Taliban, Syria, Iran, and Iraq were all openly pleased by the attack that murdered thousands. It turned out that Al Quida, only one of several RIM organizations was directly to blame, and Al Quida was openly supported by the Taliman. They apparently were lulled into thinking that the US would not be able to effectively respond. Clinton's response to terrorism was to lob a few cruise missiles, and talk tough. Afghanistan is a geographically difficult location in which to conduct military operations. Access to Afghanistan requires passage through, or over, Iran and/or Pakistan from the south. Neither country, with their large radicalized Islamic populations would be anxious to "help" the US. There is difficult access from the north through the breakaway Soviet Republics, but they also tend to have conservative Islamic populations. From the west, from Iraq, air supply to Afghanistan is difficult but possible without provoking a larger war. Saddam had to go, and enough votes were found in Congress to strike back at those who brought down the Twin Towers of Manhattan.

Who opposed striking back at the Radical Islamic Movement? Well, the far left and those who have been attacking the United States since the 1950's opposed any military response. Those with vested interests in Iraq, like France, Russia, and the UN, opposed any effective response. Obama opposed any effective military response. To her credit, Sen. Clinton was one of those Democratic legislators who voted approval. Across the United States, the People, whether Republican, Democrat or Independent, largely approved use of the military option.

Though the left and the most partisan Democrats have been trying to peddle the idea that the Bush Administration brazenly and consciously lied to lead the nation into an unjustified war for years, they have yet to establish ANY such lie, or intent. Has the Bush Administration been without fault, or wise enough to avoid any mistakes, or poor policies? Nope, this administration like any other is forced to make fast judgments on incomplete and often incorrect information. The President is not very good at communicating complex policies, but to argue that he is both "stupid" and "evil" is nonsense.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 11:06 am
@Asherman,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdJUCU1UH2w
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 11:14 am
@Asherman,
Ash-- the guy was evil and had evil intentions. End of story.

If only Hitler had been sorted in time. Think of the lives that would have saved.

And plenty knew he was evil.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 11:17 am
@Asherman,
None of these so called liberals know where we would be had the bastard been left alone. They haven't a clue.

Mr Bush will go down as a great President when historians tell the tale properly.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 06:56 pm
@hamburger,
Bob Woodward has been writing a series of books about the Iraq war, and Bush's conduct of the war. His sources were at the highest levels, and the information they gave him was on the record. Last night Woodward was on Larry King discussing his latest book, and it sounds absolutely fascinating.

Not only did Obama and the Democrats not think the surge was a good strategy, the Joint Chiefs of Staff never thought it was a good idea.

And, in 2006, Bush deliberately misled the public about how badly the war was going, because he didn't want the truth to effect the mid-term elections.

At the end of the King interview last night, Woodward, who has met with Bush, said the president no longer refers to "victory" or to "winning", but instead talks about "progress"

Here is a review of the book, which all of you should find enlightening in terms of the information it reveals.

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-et-rutten10-2008sep10,0,1049807.story

From the Los Angeles Times
BOOK REVIEW

"The War Within" by Bob Woodward

In the fourth book in Woodward's series, Bush is painted as a failed wartime chief for his handling of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
By Tim Rutten
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

September 10, 2008

ONE OF modern warfare's founding fathers, the 19th century Prussian field marshal Helmuth von Moltke, was of the opinion that no military plan, however well and carefully conceived, could survive its first contact with the enemy.

The same might be said about preconceptions concerning what makes a good wartime president. America's two greatest wartime leaders, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin D. Roosevelt, were not just temperamental but also managerial opposites. Lincoln -- solitary, brooding, agonized -- was what we'd call today a micromanager, involved in everything from the development of new weapons to individual generals' tactical planning. Roosevelt -- gregarious, preternaturally sunny, optimistic -- set grand strategy and political goals but left the military side to his magnificent chief of staff, Gen. George C. Marshall. What Lincoln and Roosevelt did have in common was mature idealism coupled with iron resolve and an exquisite adaptation to the realities of their particular historical moment.

The question of what sort of wartime president George W. Bush has been runs like a thread through Bob Woodward's brilliantly reported "The War Within: A Secret White House History 2006-2008," the fourth volume in his running, insider's account of the Bush administration's conduct of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The series began with a generally positive assessment of the president in "Bush at War" and has moved down through deepening levels of disenchantment in "Plan of Attack" and "State of Denial." In this latest volume, the weight of evidence finally produces a verdict -- and it isn't a happy one.

Bush, in Woodward's view, is the worst kind of wartime president: controlling and disengaged, all at once. Worse, he frequently is not only detached from unpleasant or inconvenient facts but is also positively hostile to those who recite them. As Woodward reconstructs the last two years -- in a stunning series of on-the-record interviews with participants -- this willful blindness has spilled out of the White House and into the departments of Defense and State in a perfect maelstrom of dysfunction.

"For years, time and again, President Bush has displayed impatience, bravado and unsettling personal certainty about his decisions," Woodward concludes. "The result has too often been impulsiveness and carelessness and, perhaps most troubling, a delayed reaction to realities and advice that run counter to his gut. . . . Bush was intolerant of confrontations and in-depth debate. . . . The president was engaged in the war rhetorically but maintained an odd detachment from its management. He never got a full handle on it, and over these years of war, too often he failed to lead."

About the surge in Iraq

The central events in "The War Within" are the conception and execution of "the surge," the infusion of additional U.S. troops that appears to have stabilized the security situation in Iraq, creating an opportunity for President Nouri Maliki's government to begin to assert itself. The success of this strategic shift is a significant issue in our own presidential campaign, since the Republican nominee, John McCain, was an early, vocal supporter of the surge. (Indeed, although the Arizona senator has supported the war from the outset, he has consistently criticized the Bush administration for committing too few troops to the fight. Sen. Barack Obama opposed the war but recently conceded that the surge is working.)

Woodward's appraisal is more nuanced. He argues that the current situation was created by the confluence of three forces of which the troop surge may be the least consequential. More important is a hyper-secret new program (by inference, a combination of technology and operational techniques) that has allowed U.S. forces to identify, locate and kill huge numbers of the insurgency's leaders, including members of Al Qaeda. When military and White House officials learned that Woodward knew of the secret program, they asked that he withhold any details because publication would endanger the operation and compromise its use elsewhere. Responsible though Woodward's decision may be, it lends a fairly frustrating opacity to what is "The War Within's" biggest revelation.

The author also argues that the diminution of violence in Iraq owes a great deal to the so-called Anbar Awakening, in which the tribal sheiks in that crucial Sunni-dominated province have turned on Al Qaeda and aligned themselves with the U.S. and the new central government. Woodward points out that the success in Anbar began long before the surge with the Marines' successful counterinsurgency efforts on the Syrian border. The result of those efforts reached critical mass at about the time the surge began. In fact, Woodward quotes a memo from one of Gen. David H. Petraeus' counter-insurgency experts, musing that the troop surge has had the opposite effect from the one intended, which was to give the Maliki government a safe space into which it could extend its influence as a national regime. Instead, the memo argues, the presence of additional U.S. troops has allowed the tribal leaders to assert themselves and their influence not only locally but also on the Baghdad government in an evolving but specifically Iraqi expression of civil society.

Unexpected -- unless, of course, you recall Von Moltke's dictum.

The weight of evidence Woodward provides to support his indictment of Bush's leadership comes in his reconstruction of the surge's origin. By 2006, it had become apparent, even to the White House, that the U.S. strategy in Iraq was failing utterly. Violence was on the rise with no end in sight. A study group convened by the administration was told by Michael V. Hayden, director of central intelligence, that the situation -- under the prevailing strategy -- was hopeless. Still, according to Woodward, Bush resisted any change, refused to fire then-Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld and persisted in misleading the public with upbeat assessments because he feared the truth's effect on mid-term congressional elections.

A White House secret

After the Democratic gains that November, Bush's doggedly loyal national security advisor, Stephen J. Hadley, convened a secret White House task force that cut the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Pentagon out of the loop and went to retired military generals -- mainly the Army's former vice chief of staff, Gen. Jack Keane -- for strategic advice. It was a decision that, according to Woodward, has left America's top military commanders demoralized ever since.

The result of Hadley's secret consultations was the surge, a concept the Joint Chiefs had opposed from the start. In essence, their argument was that, even if the surge succeeded in reducing violence, the U.S. might end up a loser because it would increase the Iraqis' dependence on American military forces. The more troops committed, this line of thinking went, the longer more of them would have to stay to prop up the Baghdad regime. Moreover, committing the number of troops Hadley demanded -- and he, not Bush, was the author of the policy -- would leave the Pentagon unable to respond to any other global threat.

Even Petraeus, who emerges from Woodward's account as a formidable and honorable warrior, agreed on that point. Hand-picked by Keane, who has continued to be a back channel between the Oval Office and Petraeus outside the military chain of command, the new commander of U.S. forces in Iraq met privately with Bush immediately after his Senate confirmation. The president called his decision to order the surge "a double down."

"Mr. President, this is not double down," Petraeus responded. "This is all in."

No matter who wins in November, "all in" is precisely where the next president and the American people will find themselves when George W. Bush leaves office in January.

[email protected]




cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 07:41 pm
@firefly,
I also saw/heard a short segment of that Larry King program, and heard Woodward say that Bush always talked about "progress" even though the truth on the ground were not very good. None of the generals ever gave Bush positive reports, but Bush always used the word "progress" to misinform the general public.

As for the "surge," not many people who knows the facts really believes the Iraqi government has made any progress where it counts. We wouldn't know it, but I've always been very skeptical about what Bush said about Iraq from the very beginning.

Finally, I doubt Woodward's book will make any difference as to the perception about the war in Iraq.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 08:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

....I've always been very skeptical about what Bush said about Iraq from the very beginning. ...

And you would believe Woodward? LOL.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 08:34 pm
@cicerone imposter,
okie, Bush cooperated with Woodward in his research for these books. Woodward really had incredible access to information.

I have followed the publications of Woodward's books in this series, but haven't yet read them, something I really must make time to do. Have you read any of them?

This is the description of "Plan of Attack", which I believe is the second book in the series--Woodward also reports the outright manipulation of intelligence to make the case for the war:

Quote:
]From Publishers Weekly
Based on exhaustive research and remarkable access to the White House, including two sessions with President Bush and more than 75 interviews with administration officials, veteran Washington Post assistant managing editor Woodward delivers an engrossing blow-by-blow of the run-up to war in Iraq. In November 2001, just months after September 11, Woodward reports, Bush pulled aside defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld and asked him to secretly begin updating war plans for Iraq. Sixteen months later, in March 2003, after an intense war-planning effort, a tense political fight at home and a carefully crafted "if-you-don’t-we-will" diplomatic strategy with the U.N., the American invasion began. Woodward has penned a forceful, often disturbing narrative that captures the deep personality and policy clashes within the Bush administration. Bush, along with Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Karl Rove and Paul Wolfowitz, are portrayed as believing in a sweeping mission to export democracy and to have America be viewed as strong and willing to walk the walk. They are counterbalanced by Colin Powell, who emerges here as a reluctant warrior, a pragmatic voice"eventually muted"cautioning the president against a rush to war. The most stunning aspect of the story, however, is the glaring intelligence failure of George Tenet’s CIA, from bad WMD information to what Woodward reports as the outright manipulation of questionable intelligence to make the case for war. With this book, Woodward, the author of an astonishing nine number-one bestsellers, has delivered his most important and impressive work in years. Ultimately, this first-class work of contemporary history will be remembered for shedding needed light on the Iraq War, whatever its final outcome.
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.


And this is the third book, "State of Denial"

Quote:
From Publishers Weekly
Starred Review. If there ever was a crystalline indictment of a president's wartime decisions, this is it. In the third volume exploring the political carnage and bureaucratic infighting prompted by the September 11 attacks, legendary investigative journalist Woodward (Bush at War, Plan of Attack) dissects the Bush administration's conduct of the war in Iraq. The picture isn't a pretty one, and Woodward's disarming, matter-of-fact prose makes his page-turning account more powerful still. The incompetence and arrogance on display in the highest levels of the executive branch is as stunning-and as unsettling-as the dismay voiced by civilians and soldiers who endeavor and fail to open the administration's eyes to the failures in Iraq, from the complex security challenges to simple logistical matters like securing sufficient translators. Unable to manage the war they unleashed, the principals-President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and national security advisor, later Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice-fare poorly here. Many of the charges are familiar-the president lacks inquisitiveness, the vice president is obsessed with WMD, Rice is "the worst security advisor in modern times"-but gel anew in the light of Woodward's explication. The breakout star of this disturbing spectacle is Rumsfeld, who presides over the conflict with a supreme self confidence that literally leaves Woodward at a loss for words. If journalism is the first page of history, then Woodward's opus will be required reading for any would-be historians of the time.
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved


Bush really deserved to be impeached for the lies that dragged us into this war. The only thing that probably saved him from that was the thought of Cheney becoming president.

Listening to McCain talking about "victory" in Iraq, as though there is anything left to win there, is disgusting. He's continuing the deceptiveness of Bush. What's worse, the Iraqi people still hate us, they feel our troops deserve to be attacked, and they just want us out of there. How could anyone talk about "winning" or "victory" there with a straight face?

cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 08:38 pm
@firefly,
firefly, Did you notice okie's post above yours? That's the problem with Woodward's books; conservatives are not interested in the truth. They continue on the conservative line no matter how much evidence is presented. It's as if there's a wall built around their brain; nothing can penetrate it after it's been locked up and sealed. ergo, the American People. There's no hope that Bush will be charged with any crime now or after he retires from the white house.

Our government is broken.
slkshock7
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 08:39 pm
@nimh,
Sorry you're wrong....375 votes for...and 156 against (from his link) of the leaders of this nation (both House and Senate). Joe was talking democrats...only.
okie
 
  3  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 08:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Woodward is a partisan hack that made his reputation on hating Nixon for a cheap burglary into a campaign office, but he is still searching for something to equal that. I can walk into any bookstore, ci, and see dozens of Bush hater books, and you know what, they are garbage. Woodward is an old relic of the antique media, still wanting to give it one more try to bring down Bush by building an elaborate case of factoids loosely constructed to his liking and partisanship. I wouldn't waste any time reading his book.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 09:03 pm
@okie,
I'm glad to see you have a good understanding of history okie.

Yeah, it was all about hating Nixon. Rolling Eyes
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 09:07 pm
@okie,
Shocked

aaaaccckk!!

Once again, real slowly...

Jebus...
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  4  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 09:14 pm
@parados,
Watergate, a cheap burglary into a campaign office, thats it. And we've been hearing about it for decades. I have a good understanding of it. I watched all the hearings day in and day out, with good ole Sam Ervin, I thought it was important then. It was important, but hardly what it has been played up to be. I have seen far more important corruptions go virtually unnoticed and uncared about.
 

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