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Sex-Change Operation for Killer?

 
 
Heeven
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2008 03:28 pm
You don't have to convince me that GID is valid. I understand that this is a real mental disorder and I can actually feel quite sorry for an individual who is suffering because of their anguish in being in the wrong body. I do get that part of it. I can actually sympathise with an individuals pure need to be as they feel they mentally and emotionally should be, but sympathy is as far as I go.

This is not a free person. This is a person who is under lock and key in a prison in my State. This is a person who expects and now demands (by court) that I and every other taxpayer give him the funds to pay for his transformation.

If I were a transsexual, walking free in the city of Boston, and suffering unimaginable pain and grief at not being of the opposite sex, if I attempted to commit suicide again and again, slashed at my 'wrong' body parts, or otherwise suffered greatly, ..... is the State of Massachusetts responsible for this? I think not. It may be a wonderfully humane thing to do but it should not be the responsibility of the State or anyone else to provide.

I am unlikely to put my hand in my pocket and pay for an operation for a transsexual that I am BEST FRIENDS with, let alone a complete stranger, and a stranger who is a murder, who is incarcerated and supposed to be punished for his crime.

If that is cruel and unusual punishment then I guess I am cruel but not that unusual.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2008 04:22 pm
Heeven wrote:
You don't have to convince me that GID is valid. I understand that this is a real mental disorder and I can actually feel quite sorry for an individual who is suffering because of their anguish in being in the wrong body.


Then we are both in agreement, and this isn't cosmetic in nature. It's psychological. Whether it's necessary or not is something I am not asserting. But it's a over-simplification to reduce it to a cosmetic procedure.

Quote:
This is not a free person. This is a person who is under lock and key in a prison in my State. This is a person who expects and now demands (by court) that I and every other taxpayer give him the funds to pay for his transformation.


I don't really care about this part of the debate. The cost of arguing about it is about as much to the taxpayer as paying it anyway and the "cost to the taxpayer" is not going to be a legal factor at all.

Quote:

If I were a transsexual, walking free in the city of Boston, and suffering unimaginable pain and grief at not being of the opposite sex, if I attempted to commit suicide again and again, slashed at my 'wrong' body parts, or otherwise suffered greatly, ..... is the State of Massachusetts responsible for this? I think not. It may be a wonderfully humane thing to do but it should not be the responsibility of the State or anyone else to provide.


The state is responsible for the health care of its incarcerated citizens. It is not responsible for the health care of its free citizens. By denying them their freedom (deservedly or not) the state assumes this responsibility for their health care.

Where that responsibility ends is a good question and we may even agree that cases like this fall outside the line but there is no question that the state is responsible for an incarcerated individual's health care.

Quote:
I am unlikely to put my hand in my pocket and pay for an operation for a transsexual that I am BEST FRIENDS with, let alone a complete stranger, and a stranger who is a murder, who is incarcerated and supposed to be punished for his crime.


I really do think all of that is a red herring. Like I said, the legal fight is going to cost as much or more than the operation anyway. And this isn't so much about who pays for it as much as a debate on GDI and sex reassignment and its standing in medicine (which isn't even resolved enough for disputes outside of prison).

Personally, I don't have much of a qualm with the state refusing to pay for this operation. But it can't be because GDI is cosmetic (it isn't), or because of cost (not a legitimate legal argument).

Quote:
If that is cruel and unusual punishment then I guess I am cruel but not that unusual.


I don't think you are cruel or unusual and can see myself reaching the same conclusions as you. I just think this is too complex to dismiss on its face and thusly care about the details.
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Heeven
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2008 04:31 pm
Robert Gentel wrote:
Like I said, the legal fight is going to cost as much or more than the operation anyway.


and this here is the crux of the issue. In this litigious society, where people sue at the drop of a hat and with people wanting others to provide for them (in cases where they should not reasonably expect them to do so) it can get down to the sued party having to pay for it to go away. I would love a judge or court to throw out claims such as this. It makes me shake my head at where common sense went to.

I have to respect your opinion Robert. Finely put and some of what you said got me thinking and perhaps seeing it from another view.
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Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2008 04:41 pm
But I don't actually have a different real position on this issue to offer you.

I don't think this case merits it, but even disregarding all of the concerns I have about its legitimacy I am not convinced the state should ever perform sex reassignment surgery on incarcerated people.

I care about the why. If that's outside the line based on "common sense" what qualities make it so that can be fairly applied? It's a bit of a codification concern.

Let's put it to you this way. If you say it shouldn't be paid for what objective reasons can be used to deny it?
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Heeven
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2008 04:52 pm
Robert Gentel wrote:
Let's put it to you this way. If you say it shouldn't be paid for what objective reasons can be used to deny it?



Responsibility of self.

I am a firm believer that people should take responsibility for their own lives. I do not agree with the hand-out-society. I believe that you work for what you want and live within the confines of what you can provide for yourself. Family and friends contribute and that is a personal support system. There could be societal contribution but I think minimal is the way to go there because some people are genuinely selfish and will live off the backs of others and not put the effort in. Any real pride and sense of self-worth is a good trait to have and working for something you want is the way to go.

I realize that this is just how I feel and arguments can be had for and against. I am not the smartest kid on the block and don't pretend to be. I go with my gut and I disagree wholeheartedly with the issue above.
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Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2008 05:11 pm
Heeven wrote:

Responsibility of self.

I am a firm believer that people should take responsibility for their own lives. I do not agree with the hand-out-society.


Ok, but that doesn't help draw the line. You accept that the state has some obligation for the health care of the incarcerated but where do you draw that line objectively? A general concept of responsibility I can agree to but we'd still be no closer to an objective definition of the state's responsibility.

For example, I am not even sure where the line should be on more conventional treatment such as heart transplants. Should the sentence affect it? If the person being incarcerated is doing a year for a white collar crime should their heart transplant be denied, effectively making it a death sentence? Should a costly heart transplant with low chances for success be offered to someone on death row?

Similarly, what if this case were not a murderer, but "just" an accountant who did a small financial crime. He's sentenced to a few years, and claims he needs this surgery. Should it be allowed (even if he pays for it)? Should it be paid for?

It's not easy moral territory to navigate, and we may well agree on all the basic principles and still be no closer to having an objective and fair way to handle this kind of thing.

That's why it's a great moral puzzle to me.

Quote:
I realize that this is just how I feel and arguments can be had for and against. I am not the smartest kid on the block and don't pretend to be. I go with my gut and I disagree wholeheartedly with the issue above.


Nonsense, you are plenty smart. It's merely an unfortunate part of law in that your individual "common sense" can't be a measuring stick. There has to be objective codification and it's not an easy process. This case has the potential to set some precedents and I'm interested in the interpretations of responsibility that come out.

In any case, I'm not really disagreeing with your position. It's just an awful lot to explore.
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Heeven
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2008 05:29 pm
I guess if I was the "line-drawer" I would be pretty hard. I don't like to see people suffer unnecessarily but I would draw the line at this if the decision were up to me.

It could possibly be that since I can't relate and don't understand the feelings that I just don't get it and therefore it appears to me to be less of a necessity to life than another condition that I understand better.

Anyways I'll be watching the progess of this case to see where it goes.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2008 07:52 pm
fishin wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Hmmm...I'd be way more convinced by the after care stuff than by the problems of maintaining security in a hospital. Prisoners have to be treated in general hospitals all the time, and, while it ain't pretty, and it DOES present security risks, it is doable, and is done. I would guess it is more a SHOULD it be done that a CAN it be done thing...I doubt they'd hesitate with most surgery.


Setanta wrote:
I'd be very surprised to learn that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts does not have a designated high security hospital facility in an existing hospital. For example, the Ohio State University Medical Center supplies this need to the state department of corrections in Ohio. There is a secure ward which is patrolled by uniformed corrections personnel, with a reception/access control station at the entrance to the ward. There are numerous cameras which look at the ward from several angles, which look at the hall at the entrance to the ward, the emergency exit stairwell and the elevator which leads to the hall in front of the ward. The cameras are monitored in the Lieutenant's/Shift Supervisor's office opposite the ward entrance, and in the hospital security control center. (The security systems company i worked for maintained the camera system for the hospital, including that ward.) Perhaps you could find out, Fishin', if there is any such facility in Massachusetts.


The State does have facilities for treating prisoners. That isn't in question. (Exactly who gets treated where depends on which prison they are in, whether it is a county jail or state prison and what teh specific medical issue is... It could be Norwood Hospital if the prisoner is at Walpole State Prison, Emerson Hospital if they are at the Concord State prison, etc... or in some cases, Mass Generall in downtown Boston for something the smaller hospitals can't deal with.).

A part of Kosilek's complaint though, is that he needs his sexual reassignment surgery done at a facility that specializes in doing exactly that sort fo thing. None of the "normal" hospitals do this sort of thing (why medical staff couldn't be brought to one of those hospitals and use their facilities is a good question though...)

But anyway, Here is a link (90 page PDF file!) to the court's ruling in his 2002 lawsuit and some of the discussion. The current suit is a continuation of much of the exact same issues/discussion. (Much of the info in the court document was unknown to me previously. There has been no mention of his previously having been raped in prison, his suicide attempts and attempt to self-castrate while awaiting trial for murdering his wife in any of the press accounts that I've seen.)


Thanks for the link Fishin'.



I have no computer at home right now, but I'll likely wade through some of it when I do again!
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