Sex-Change Operation for Killer?

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Article in Boston Herald

Hmmm, not sure I'm chomping at the bit about my tax dollars being spent so a convicted killer, in prison, can have a sex-change operation.

Article reads:

The state's new correction commissioner said he plans to re-examine the case of a convicted killer suing for a state-financed sex-change operation.

Prison officials have opposed Michelle Kosilek's demand for the surgery, saying it could make the transgender inmate a target for sexual assault by other inmates. But Commissioner Harold Clarke, appointed last fall, said yesterday he has not decided yet whether to continue to fight Kosilek's request.

"I need to take a look at the information presented before I arrived, and with a fresh set of eyes, closely scrutinize it," Clarke said after a hearing in the case.

Robert Kosilek murdered his wife, Cheryl, in 1990. He changed his name to Michelle in 1993 and has been living as a woman in the men's prison in Norfolk. He sued in 2000, claiming the state's refusal to pay for the operation is cruel and unusual punishment.

In 2002, U.S. District Judge Mark Wolf ruled the state had failed to adequately treat Kosilek's gender identity disorder, but stopped short of ordering a sex-change operation. He found there was no violation of Kosilek's rights because there was no "deliberate indifference" to his medical needs.

Kosilek, 58, sued again in 2005, saying hormone treatments, laser hair removal and psychotherapy he has received since 2002 were not enough to relieve his anxiety and depression. His medical experts say the surgery is medically necessary for him, citing two suicide attempts. But DOC's experts say he doesn't need the surgery. Wolf has asked Clarke to testify about his position on May 12.

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The last time I checked, sex-change was an elective surgery, thus
"Michelle" should pay for it herself.

Quote:

Kosilek, 58, sued again in 2005, saying hormone treatments, laser hair removal and psychotherapy he has received since 2002 were not enough to relieve his anxiety and depression.

Who paid for the hormone treatment, and laser hair removal?
Next thing we know, they have liposuction and facelifts performed at
the correctional facilities (the name seems so appropriate now)....

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Does "Michelle" perhaps want to serve "her" time in a prison for women?

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CalamityJane wrote:

The last time I checked, sex-change was an elective surgery, thus
"Michelle" should pay for it herself.

Quote:
Kosilek, 58, sued again in 2005, saying hormone treatments, laser hair removal and psychotherapy he has received since 2002 were not enough to relieve his anxiety and depression.

Who paid for the hormone treatment, and laser hair removal?
Next thing we know, they have liposuction and facelifts performed at
the correctional facilities (the name seems so appropriate now)....

The state has been paying for his/her hormone treatments.

If I felt this was legit I'd actually support it but things like ...were not enough to relieve his anxiety and depression." just turn me off of it.

Hey, it's friggin' prison! EVERYONE IN THERE IS DEPRESSED AND HAS ANXIETY! Don't like it? DON'T KILL PEOPLE!

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What on earth would the warden do with the new girl in a men's prison? That's what I think is interesting.

The rest is just the same ole gender identity debate but this presents an interesting conundrum.

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Robert Gentel wrote:

What on earth would the warden do with the new girl in a men's prison? That's what I think is interesting.

The rest is just the same ole gender identity debate but this presents an interesting conundrum.

As far as I can work out, penis rules: ie if someone had had surgical intervention where the penis was removed, they would be seen as female, and placed in a women's prison, if that is what you were asking.

Presumably this would apply in this case if the prisoner were successful in gaining access to surgery after imprisonment.

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dlowan wrote:

Robert Gentel wrote:
What on earth would the warden do with the new girl in a men's prison? That's what I think is interesting.

The rest is just the same ole gender identity debate but this presents an interesting conundrum.

As far as I can work out, penis rules: ie if someone had had surgical intervention where the penis was removed, they would be seen as female, and placed in a women's prison, if that is what you were asking.

Presumably this would apply in this case if the prisoner were successful in gaining access to surgery after imprisonment.

*Nods* He's currently at Norfolk. At some point in the chain of events he/she would get transferred to the Framingham Women's Prison.

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I just don't understand how a judge can say that the "the state had failed to adequately treat Kosilek's gender identity disorder". What treatment is adequate for a prisoner who chooses to be a different gender? And yes, yes, I know, there is mental anguish here. Some people are genuinely born in the wrong body but he/she is supposed to be in prison TO BE PUNISHED, not rewarded!

I don't understand why stuff like this is not thrown out of court and complaints from prisoners like this are not deemed ridiculous.

Had he not killed his wife, been convicted and imprisoned, would Kosilek have been able to afford a sex-change operation himself? and who is to say he would have done it, had he not been in prison. I just don't understand why the state is even giving his complaint the time of day!

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fishin wrote:

dlowan wrote:
Robert Gentel wrote:
What on earth would the warden do with the new girl in a men's prison? That's what I think is interesting.

The rest is just the same ole gender identity debate but this presents an interesting conundrum.

As far as I can work out, penis rules: ie if someone had had surgical intervention where the penis was removed, they would be seen as female, and placed in a women's prison, if that is what you were asking.

Presumably this would apply in this case if the prisoner were successful in gaining access to surgery after imprisonment.

*Nods* He's currently at Norfolk. At some point in the chain of events he/she would get transferred to the Framingham Women's Prison.

I discovered that transsexual folk are way over-represented in prisons when I was looking just then, and that they generally, as anyone would guess, have a scarily awful time, being highly subject to rape and general abuse, or stuck in protection, which is a universally horrid situation to be in.

I have always been interested in the area, since, early in my career, seeing a person who was dressing and living as a woman, and having hormone therapy, being humiliated and brutalised by guards as they arrived in (male) prison from court. God only knows what happened to them once processed.

I made an instant report of what I had seen, of course, and I know the person was very quickly seen by prison mental health people and some planning for their wellbeing was done, in what was, then, an extremely rare situation, but I am now wondering how these issues are managed in the system here now...more than 20 years later.

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There is a pregnant man in my state - due to deliver in July. He was born a woman and had partial reassignment surgery and had married. After his wife had a hysterectomy he quit taking testosterone and became pregnant.

What in the world would they do in prison if faced with that situation?

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dlowan wrote:

As far as I can work out, penis rules: ie if someone had had surgical intervention where the penis was removed, they would be seen as female, and placed in a women's prison, if that is what you were asking.

Presumably this would apply in this case if the prisoner were successful in gaining access to surgery after imprisonment.

Presumably that's what would happen but I'm not sure that's something I think should happen. The gender differences don't end with a penis and I'm not sure putting males without a penis with women in an incarcerated setting is much better than putting males without a penis with men in an incarcerated setting.

Not a lot of positives to it either way but I suppose there's no avoiding much of that. I don't think they should be in general prisons but that alone is a complicating motivator to making these determinations of legitimacy.

Heeven wrote:

I just don't understand why the state is even giving his complaint the time of day!

Because if you accept that the operation is a cure for a disease they are denying medical care that they have some degree of obligation to provide.

But that makes me wonder if they are legally obligated to provide things like heart transplants and what legal precedents there are for more conventional big-ticket medical care.

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dlowan wrote:

fishin wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Robert Gentel wrote:
What on earth would the warden do with the new girl in a men's prison? That's what I think is interesting.

The rest is just the same ole gender identity debate but this presents an interesting conundrum.

As far as I can work out, penis rules: ie if someone had had surgical intervention where the penis was removed, they would be seen as female, and placed in a women's prison, if that is what you were asking.

Presumably this would apply in this case if the prisoner were successful in gaining access to surgery after imprisonment.

*Nods* He's currently at Norfolk. At some point in the chain of events he/she would get transferred to the Framingham Women's Prison.

I discovered that transsexual folk are way over-represented in prisons when I was looking just then, and that they generally, as anyone would guess, have a scarily awful time, being highly subject to rape and general abuse, or stuck in protection, which is a universally horrid situation to be in.

I have always been interested in the area, since, early in my career, seeing a person who was dressing and living as a woman, and having hormone therapy, being humiliated and brutalised by guards as they arrived in (male) prison from court. God only knows what happened to them once processed.

I made an instant report of what I had seen, of course, and I know the person was very quickly seen by prison mental health people and some planning for their wellbeing was done, in what was, then, an extremely rare situation, but I am now wondering how these issues are managed in the system here now...more than 20 years later.

I doubt it's changed much. It's a bit of a tough situation for everyone. Typically, prisons systems "protect" the vulnerable by segregating them from the general population. That limits the opportunities for predators and allows for authorities to watch them more closely but at the same time, segregation usually means less freedom. It can mean a lack of contact with others and limits on access to facilities/resources (libraries, gym equipment, etc..). There have been several lawsuits over the years complaining that putting someone in segregation (when they haven't committed some in-system offense) is a violation of their constitutional rights.

So it becomes a bit of a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" siituation for the prison systems.

One group representing the GLBT community here in MA has pushed for an entirely seperate prison facility for gay/lesbian and transgendered prisoners which would be run by guards and administarators that are G, L, B or T themselves but that's a huge cost for a fairly small community of prisoners.

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Let's just lop his balls of anyway. For fun.

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Fascinatin' thread . . .

I am rendered speechless . . .

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Robert Gentel wrote:

dlowan wrote:

As far as I can work out, penis rules: ie if someone had had surgical intervention where the penis was removed, they would be seen as female, and placed in a women's prison, if that is what you were asking.

Presumably this would apply in this case if the prisoner were successful in gaining access to surgery after imprisonment.

Presumably that's what would happen but I'm not sure that's something I think should happen. The gender differences don't end with a penis and I'm not sure putting males without a penis with women in an incarcerated setting is much better than putting males without a penis with men in an incarcerated setting.

Not a lot of positives to it either way but I suppose there's no avoiding much of that. I don't think they should be in general prisons but that alone is a complicating motivator to making these determinations of legitimacy.

Heeven wrote:
I just don't understand why the state is even giving his complaint the time of day!

Because if you accept that the operation is a cure for a disease they are denying medical care that they have some degree of obligation to provide.

But that makes me wonder if they are legally obligated to provide things like heart transplants and what legal precedents there are for more conventional big-ticket medical care.

That's an interesting view of what is "male" and "female".

How male is someone who believes they are female, whose body is coursing with female hormones etc., and who now has a vagina and no penis?

It'd be interesting to find out how it works, in practice, having post surgery MTF transexuals in the female prison population.

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boomerang wrote:

There is a pregnant man in my state - due to deliver in July. He was born a woman and had partial reassignment surgery and had married. After his wife had a hysterectomy he quit taking testosterone and became pregnant.

What in the world would they do in prison if faced with that situation?

I'd tend to think pregnancy would trump anything else!!!!

Especially if, as some correctional jurisdictions do, women are able to keep babies with them for the first year or so.

Imagine a BABY in a male prison.

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dlowan wrote:

It'd be interesting to find out how it works, in practice, having post surgery MTF transexuals in the female prison population.

Even more interesting - How will it work when someone fabricates their gender identity disorder and goes through the MTF process and gets transferred to a women's prison all in an attempt to shorten their prison term?

In this particluar case with Kosilek - he's a habitual liar who's changed his story at every phase (not that that would be unsual for many murders...)

His gender dysphoria had never been mentioned until his trial - 3 years after he killed his wife, when he was 40 years old. While I suppose it is possible that he could have lived with gender dysphoria for years and not let anyone know, the sudden claim along with claims that the dysphoria was causing him to "black out" for periods of time came conviently as a truely off-the-wall defense at his trial.

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dlowan wrote:

Imagine a BABY in a male prison.

You do realize you just wrote the pitch for the next big Hollywood blockbuster feel-good male-bonding comedy, don't you?

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fishin wrote:

dlowan wrote:
It'd be interesting to find out how it works, in practice, having post surgery MTF transexuals in the female prison population.

Even more interesting - How will it work when someone fabricates their gender identity disorder and goes through the MTF process and gets transferred to a women's prison all in an attempt to shorten their prison term?

In this particluar case with Kosilek - he's a habitual liar who's changed his story at every phase (not that that would be unsual for many murders...)

His gender dysphoria had never been mentioned until his trial - 3 years after he killed his wife, when he was 40 years old. While I suppose it is possible that he could have lived with gender dysphoria for years and not let anyone know, the sudden claim along with claims that the dysphoria was causing him to "black out" for periods of time came conviently as a truely off-the-wall defense at his trial.

Yeah...I confess I was wondering about that.

The culture is kind of imbued with the notion of transexualism now, isn't it? And, (from experience, not by looking at research) my impression is that a lot of generally unhappy and dysfunctional folk, in portions of the globe that have a major industry involving medicalising of behavioural and emotional problems, can cling to gender dysphoria as an explanation, carrying it with all the trappings of medical and surgical solutions.

Not that I do not believe that it exists, but I have seen it serving a number of purposes.

Of course, the endless assessment and therapy and the lengths of time involved, is supposed to sort that sort of thing out (as well as exclude frankly self-serving manipulators).

Mind you, for this fella to take the path he has, I would suspect he most certainly has gender issues of some sort.

The path he has taken would make life very hard for him in prison, I would think. Truly, the awfulness of life for "protected" inmates (at least here) is hard to imagine unless you have heard about it firsthand, or experienced it, of course.

And being a target in a general prison population.......makes me shudder to think about it.

cyphercat wrote:

dlowan wrote:

Imagine a BABY in a male prison.

You do realize you just wrote the pitch for the next big Hollywood blockbuster feel-good male-bonding comedy, don't you?

Lol! Yes...."3,000 Men and a Baby."

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dlowan wrote:

That's an interesting view of what is "male" and "female".

How male is someone who believes they are female, whose body is coursing with female hormones etc., and who now has a vagina and no penis?

What I think doesn't matter as much as whether others in the prison can tell or not. If they can tell then their own views on gender identity become the primary factor in my opinion because I think it would be an inherent security risk (at least in a men's prison) to the individual.

But fishin' already covered the dilemma there pretty well and I don't think there are easy answers. But a lot of that just boils down to prison not being an inherently easy social situation to manage and gender identity not being a particularly easy thing for many people (I imagine even more so in prison) to understand and tolerate.

fishin wrote:

dlowan wrote:
It'd be interesting to find out how it works, in practice, having post surgery MTF transexuals in the female prison population.

Even more interesting - How will it work when someone fabricates their gender identity disorder and goes through the MTF process and gets transferred to a women's prison all in an attempt to shorten their prison term?

This is what I was initially concerned with with a MTF transsexual in female prisons because this guy really does seem to be trying to get out of prison this way and the better his condition is accommodated the more motivation to fabricate it.

I ultimately didn't think enough of them would actually go through the procedure to be too worried though. But this guy's case smacks to me of playing the system and trying to get out of a prison and into a mental institution and I wondered about that as well.

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Sex-Change Operation for Killer?

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