What is forgivable?

hawkeye10 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

An interesting perspective Hawkeye. Are you possibly suggesting that there is a physical/biological/psychological difference between men and women?

All historical evidence as well as science proves this to be true. Those who claim that men and women are the same are so out of evidence that their view could reasonably be called delusional.

I agree completely. I think it is evident in all aspects of human existence. I assume you know, however, that you and I are completely un-PC in this point of view. Smile

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everything is forgivable.

all i know is that the love of my life cheated on me, and instead of forgiving her i cut off the relationship.

Worst decision ever. my ego cost me a lot.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I agree completely. I think it is evident in all aspects of human existence. I assume you know, however, that you and I are completely un-PC in this point of view.

Ya, I get jammed repeatedly for opening my mouth, even here at A2K.

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Oh, eventually anything will be forgiven by me.

That sure as hell doesn't mean I will stay in the relationship.

"I forgive you. That's what you are asking for?"
"Yes. So we'll work it out then? I'm staying tonight?"
"No. Where would you get an idea like that from? I forgive you - I'm not an idiot asking for a second round."

For something to require forgiveness, it was a hurt. Minor hurts you can forgive and move on. Anything that goes into the meat of trust; like entering another person's body - bye bye.

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Some of the things on the list are intolerable. All are forgivable. (much as Mushy just said.)

I wouldn't stand by him as he resigned and spoke to the news media about how sorry he is. We all make mistakes. It was his mistake. He can deal with it.

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mushypancakes wrote:

For something to require forgiveness, it was a hurt. Minor hurts you can forgive and move on. Anything that goes into the meat of trust; like entering another person's body - bye bye.

The price of intimacy with an imperfect being is to allow ourselves to be hurt by them, and to then rebuild both ourselves and the relationship. The decision to limit loses and to protect ourselves from further hurt has a good argument, but it also is paid for. Those who rag on Spitze's wife seem not to understand that she may value intimacy more than they do. Some people look at marriage as two people forming a partnership in life for as they as long as they both want to, others look at it as two people coming together into one (the union) which is sealed before God and is forever. Such a person could no more pile pain or embarrassment into their husband's or wife's wagon than they could their own. Who is sure enough that they are right that they can call the other choice wrong??

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squinney wrote:

Some of the things on the list are intolerable. All are forgivable. (much as Mushy just said.)

I wouldn't stand by him as he resigned and spoke to the news media about how sorry he is. We all make mistakes. It was his mistake. He can deal with it.

You said it for me, too, to a word. Right on.

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Actually, the issue of sex & fidelity has always interested me, because it seems to me that no one ever asks why it is so.

The answer that invariably comes back (without people really asking) is 'because it's about trust'. But I would ask 'why is it about trust?'

Yes, people make a vow when they get married, but many other parts of that vow can be broken without a splitup, or the hurt engendered by cheating on a spouse...and it's not just spouses that feel this, but boyfriend & girlfriend too...so it's not about the vow (though the vow, amongst other things, may amplify it)

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Hmmm. I've never been big on pledges, vows, etc. They are words. They may mean something, and I get that, but they are still words and not tied to my ethics or truth.

I hadn't really thought about it in the way you inquire, Vikorr, but off the top of my bead I would say maybe it's more to do with the "mine" factor. We humans tend to think we can own things, including other humans. We give our heart as payment, and take ownership. Maybe that's at the root of it, or is a part of it in some way.

Maybe, since we tend to identify our "self" with things and people and thoughts etc, an affair rips open that veil against our will and kinda throws our identification in our faces. It's hard to deal with because our identity is tied to the cheating spouse. We believe we are the wife of, the mother of, the owner of... We identify ourselves that way in our language and incorporate it into who we think we are.

(Am I making any sense?)

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Perhaps a sense of ownership has something to do with it...

There is the concept (in the west at least, I don't know about elsewhere) of 'two people becoming one' (which I find a rather odd and impossible concept), and meeting your 'soulmate' (which seems another way of saying 'someone you are one with')...

...only to find out that you aren't one when one half cheats on you...so that could be it. That said, I would ask, why is it that the person you are 'one with' can go out in a group with you not there, can have very close friends of the same or opposite sex...and not violate that concept of 'oneness', but as soon as they get naked and have sex with another, why is it then that they've violated that oneness? (with this one must consider that many times they won't stop having sex with you)

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vikorr wrote:

Perhaps a sense of ownership has something to do with it...

There is the concept (in the west at least, I don't know about elsewhere) of 'two people becoming one' (which I find a rather odd and impossible concept), and meeting your 'soulmate' (which seems another way of saying 'someone you are one with')...

...only to find out that you aren't one when one half cheats on you...so that could be it. That said, I would ask, why is it that the person you are 'one with' can go out in a group with you not there, can have very close friends of the same or opposite sex...and not violate that concept of 'oneness', but as soon as they get naked and have sex with another, why is it then that they've violated that oneness? (with this one must consider that many times they won't stop having sex with you)

Because sex touches us more deeply and more completely than anything else in life. As Thomas Moore "the soul of sex" says, sex is the playground for the soul. When a couple is sexual only with each other they share this special playground only with each other. When one feels that the deal was that they both regard this playground as a sacred place for the union but the other brings outsiders in, then the one who has been cheated on has been violated in a deep way. It is not only trust that has been lost, the play ground has been soiled, and the union has lost its special place. One person of the couple decided to do this, a trespass has taken place against the one who has been cheated upon, and to make the blow even worse they usually don't find out till well after the fact.

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Quote:

Because sex touches us more deeply and more completely than anything else in life.

Why does sex touch us more deeply and completely than anything else in life?

And if so, why is it that many people claim to enjoy having meaningless sex? Some make an art form of picking up and having sex with (the opposite sex), then move on to the next person who catches their fancy.

And in light of that (peoples claims of meaningless sex), how can an agreement come to have that much meaning?

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vikorr wrote:

Quote:
Because sex touches us more deeply and more completely than anything else in life.

Why does sex touch us more deeply and completely than anything else in life?

And if so, why is it that many people claim to enjoy having meaningless sex? Some make an art form of picking up and having sex with (the opposite sex), then move on to the next person who catches their fancy.

And in light of that (peoples claims of meaningless sex), how can an agreement come to have that much meaning?

I don't know, I have never heard a good explanation, but take it from one who's wife was severely sexually abused as a child and who has been in the childhood sexual abuse community for well over ten years, it is so. Sexual abuse somehow has the power the scramble identity in a way that any other abuse does not. Sex also has the power to heal like nothing else can, it has the power to bond two people like nothing else but perhaps combat can. Sex works in us on levels we don't know anything about. It is powerful and mysterious.

You can also have meaningless sex, though this term is often used interchangeably with sex that has no emotional attachment. However sex without emotional attachment can be very meaningful, so this definition is no good. Truly meaningless sex is sex where at least one of the people doing it has partly shut down, they have become detached from the sex and from themselves in some way. It happens a lot, there are a lot of people walking around who seem perfectly fine but who are in fact partly dead inside. The sex is meaningless because at least one person never fully showed up.

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Quote:

it has the power to bond two people like nothing else but perhaps combat can

Hey Hawkeye, you've said something I've never heard another person say, if I hadn't said it first (probably not that unusual as it's not really a topic that's discussed much)

When it all comes down to it, I think sex is a bonding agent on a spiritual level.

You also said, in so many words, that people who have 'meaningless sex' are deceiving themselves, or walling themselves off (if they have say a bonk buddy), or (in the case of one night stands) moving on before the bond can strengthen enough to have meaning, so there are ways around it, so to speak.

Of course there is no particular proof for this - it is just what I see in the world, which happens to tie in to other things I believe about spirit / spirituality.

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vikorr wrote:

When it all comes down to it, I think sex is a bonding agent on a spiritual level.
.

More than that, sexual union is where the souls play, learn, feed, grow. It is also where we are most at risk, where defenses are down. Engaging is sex is when many of us feel the most alive, it is also where we do some of the most stupid stuff we will ever do in life (Spitzer could give lectures on this subject...a new career perhaps) Not everybody can deal with the high emotional and spiritual octane of sex, they go through the motions but go into a shut down mode of sorts, or like you say keep running from one relationship, one sex partner to the next.

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Quote:

More than that, sexual union is where the souls play, learn, feed, grow.

You are quite right that it is more than a strengthener of spiritual bonds. I meant that is at it's heart, or the base of it. There are other reasons to enjoy sex, and other benefits to it. I don't know that I would express it as you have, but that may simply be a matter of difference in perception.

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(my last take was that you two don't understand each other, but, alas I weary.)

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ossobuco wrote:

(my last take was that you two don't understand each other, but, alas I weary.)

The problem is the experience of sex, spirit and soul are rarely spoken about, our language is not up to the job. If we had more words to choose from the conversation would go more smoothly.

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hawkeye10 wrote:

The price of intimacy with an imperfect being is to allow ourselves to be hurt by them, and to then rebuild both ourselves and the relationship. The decision to limit loses and to protect ourselves from further hurt has a good argument, but it also is paid for. Those who rag on Spitze's wife seem not to understand that she may value intimacy more than they do. Some people look at marriage as two people forming a partnership in life for as they as long as they both want to, others look at it as two people coming together into one (the union) which is sealed before God and is forever. Such a person could no more pile pain or embarrassment into their husband's or wife's wagon than they could their own. Who is sure enough that they are right that they can call the other choice wrong??

I actually agree with you that there is a price to be paid - no matter what you choose.

I'm not so fast to believe that "those who rag on Sptize's wife" don't understand the other side of the coin. Perhaps they do, perhaps they do not.

Perhaps those who stay - and this my personal thought often times - do not understand that there is a price either way you cut it.

And the way I see it - there is no nobility either way when in a situation like that.
To stay or not is completely personal.

Once little children are brought into the equation though - the cards all different.

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Maybe what is unforgivable is not standing up for what you (the spouse who has been wronged) believe in, and for what you believe to be in your childrens best interests.....that everything else is just conversation.

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What is forgivable?

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