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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
maporsche
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 10:47 am
@parados,
Sorry, but everything listed was a case before the Supreme court wasn't it? Is that such a strange leap to make.

If POM would cite her secret sources maybe we could get to the bottom of this.
plainoldme
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 10:56 am
@maporsche,
As I read your comments, one of my ex-husband's regular lines comes to mind: that you have a hair across your backside. Only he used the saltier word.

I will admit that I wanted to post his entire editorial but had forgotten that I had edited out a small section of it in order to make a point. The right is so completely clueless that it was my intent to use the entire sequence . . . which contained attribution . . . to tell them that the conservative doctrine of strict constructionism is more often honored in the breach rather than in reality.

You chose to make an issue of it. I guess that hair itches.

BTW, Professor Stone is a member of the American Constitutional Society, which promotes the living Constitution and the values it supports. I contend that most righties haven't a clue as to what the Constitution is about, just as they don't know what a Marxist is.

And, one of your rights under the Constitution is to your angry and pointless blather.
plainoldme
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 10:57 am
@maporsche,
BTW, you sound like a Massagat sock puppet.
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 10:59 am
@plainoldme,
Thanks?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 11:01 am
@plainoldme,
While I agree with your rhetorical position, I must point out that I have long maintained that it is always appropriate to ask someone to provide evidence or documentation of their sources. In an internet discussion, this is critical when it comes to determining the veracity of claims.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 11:18 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

Sorry, but everything listed was a case before the Supreme court wasn't it? Is that such a strange leap to make.



Yes, it is a strange leap to make. There is more than one gun case including several that haven't yet been heard by SCOTUS. When the facts don't meet a case the SCOTUS has ruled on, my first assumption would be it must be a case that was ruled on elsewhere rather than leaping to the conclusion there is only one case.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 11:31 am
@parados,
Ok. Sure. You win.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 02:53 pm
Government redistribution of wealth is government thievery.

Taking money or other property from those who lawfully earned it is thievery.

Denying the rights tof life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness to those who do not attempt to deny these rights to others, is criminal.
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 03:29 pm
@plainoldme,
Quote:
Rulings by conservative justices in the past decade make it perfectly clear that they do not "apply the law" in a neutral and detached manner. Consider, for example, their decisions holding that corporations have the same right of free speech as individuals, that commercial advertising receives robust protection under the First Amendment, that the Second Amendment prohibits the regulation of guns, that affirmative action is unconstitutional, that the equal protection clause mandated the election of George W. Bush and that the Boy Scouts have a First Amendment right to exclude gay scoutmasters.


Regardless of the judicial level from where such legal opinions emanate, your above statement implies the formation of an opinion also, namely, yours. But what would be helpful to all, sans your personal legal opinion (although welcome, this might be unfair of me to ask if you do not have legal training), would be a legal opinion that you agree with that points out your position on the above issues. Even better would be a critique juxtaposing both sides of the legal questions at hand. Perhaps some relevant links would be in order.

Just a personal observation about affirmative action (AA): I have always wondered, how those that would seek to rectify discrimination against a certain group could justify discrimination against another as remedial. What exactly, one might ask, do the mental/verbal gymnastics so required look like? Regarding college admissions: would it not be far better to rectify the source of the inequality, poor K-12 education and not race, than to lock out a candidate that would certainly qualify if not for his unfortunate choice of parents? Indeed, what is the success (undergraduate degree) rate of normally unqualified candidates for admission that, suddenly under AA now fit the institution's desired profile? Just curious.

JM
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 09:33 pm
There is an excellent article in the 10 April 2010 edition of Newsweek on right wing hate groups.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 05:24 am
@plainoldme,


There are plenty of examples and news stories on radical left wing hate speech and radical left wing hate groups every day.
maporsche
 
  3  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 08:11 am
@plainoldme,
Here is the full article, and the link. Very difficult to find and copy/paste.

It turns out the author WAS talking about the SCOTUS. My highly improbable leap to that assumption happened to be correct; although it probably only makes me lucky, as the paragraph, out of context, make such a leap impossible. Right?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/opinion/14stone.html
Quote:

Our Fill-in-the-Blank Constitution
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By GEOFFREY R. STONE
Published: April 13, 2010
Chicago

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Anthony Russo
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Times Topics: U.S. Supreme Court

AS the Senate awaits the nomination of a new Supreme Court justice, a frank discussion is needed on the proper role of judges in our constitutional system. For 30 years, conservative commentators have persuaded the public that conservative judges apply the law, whereas liberal judges make up the law. According to Chief Justice John Roberts, his job is just to “call balls and strikes.” According to Justice Antonin Scalia, conservative jurists merely carry out the “original meaning” of the framers. These are appealing but wholly disingenuous descriptions of what judges " liberal or conservative " actually do.

To see why this is so, we need only look to the text of the Constitution. It defines our most fundamental rights and protections in open-ended terms: “freedom of speech,” for example, and “equal protection of the laws,” “due process of law,” “unreasonable searches and seizures,” “free exercise” of religion and “cruel and unusual punishment.” These terms are not self-defining; they did not have clear meanings even to the people who drafted them. The framers fully understood that they were leaving it to future generations to use their intelligence, judgment and experience to give concrete meaning to the expressed aspirations.

Rulings by conservative justices in the past decade make it perfectly clear that they do not “apply the law” in a neutral and detached manner. Consider, for example, their decisions holding that corporations have the same right of free speech as individuals, that commercial advertising receives robust protection under the First Amendment, that the Second Amendment prohibits the regulation of guns, that affirmative action is unconstitutional, that the equal protection clause mandated the election of George W. Bush and that the Boy Scouts have a First Amendment right to exclude gay scoutmasters.

Whatever one thinks of these decisions, it should be apparent that conservative judges do not disinterestedly call balls and strikes. Rather, fueled by their own political and ideological convictions, they make value judgments, often in an aggressively activist manner that goes well beyond anything the framers themselves envisioned. There is nothing simple, neutral, objective or restrained about such decisions. For too long, conservatives have set the terms of the debate about judges, and they have done so in a highly misleading way. Americans should see conservative constitutional jurisprudence for what it really is. And liberals must stand up for their vision of the judiciary.

So, how should judges interpret the Constitution? To answer that question, we need to consider why we give courts the power of judicial review " the power to hold laws unconstitutional " in the first place. Although the framers thought democracy to be the best system of government, they recognized that it was imperfect. One flaw that troubled them was the risk that prejudice or intolerance on the part of the majority might threaten the liberties of a minority. As James Madison observed, in a democratic society “the real power lies in the majority of the community, and the invasion of private rights is chiefly to be apprehended ... from acts in which the government is the mere instrument of the major number of the constituents.” It was therefore essential, Madison concluded, for judges, whose life tenure insulates them from the demands of the majority, to serve as the guardians of our liberties and as “an impenetrable bulwark” against every encroachment upon our most cherished freedoms.

Conservative judges often stand this idea on its head. As the list of rulings above shows, they tend to exercise the power of judicial review to invalidate laws that disadvantage corporations, business interests, the wealthy and other powerful interests in society. They employ judicial review to protect the powerful rather than the powerless.

Liberal judges, on the other hand, have tended to exercise the power of judicial review to invalidate laws that disadvantage racial and religious minorities, political dissenters, people accused of crimes and others who are unlikely to have their interests fully and fairly considered by the majority. Liberal judges have ended racial segregation, recognized the principle of “one person, one vote,” prohibited censorship of the Pentagon Papers and upheld the right to due process, even at Guantánamo Bay. This approach to judicial review fits much more naturally with the concerns and intentions of people like Madison who forged the American constitutional system.

Should “empathy” enter into this process? In the days before he nominated Sonia Sotomayor to the Supreme Court, President Obama was criticized by conservatives for suggesting that a sense of empathy might make for a better judge.

But the president was correct. If all judges did was umpire, then judicial empathy would be irrelevant. In baseball, we wouldn’t want an umpire to say a ball was a strike just because he felt empathy for the pitcher. But once you understand that the umpire analogy is absurd, it’s evident that a sense of empathy can, in fact, help judges fulfill their responsibilities " in at least two ways.

First, empathy helps judges understand the aspirations of the framers, who were themselves determined to protect the rights of political, religious, racial and other minorities. Second, it helps judges understand the effects of the law on the real world. Think of judicial decisions that have invalidated laws prohibiting interracial marriage, granted hearings to welfare recipients before their benefits could be terminated, forbidden forced sterilization of people accused of crime, protected the rights of political dissenters and members of minority religious faiths, guaranteed a right to counsel for indigent defendants and invalidated laws denying women equal rights under the law. In each of these situations, in order to give full and proper meaning to the Constitution it was necessary and appropriate for the justices to comprehend the effect that the laws under consideration had, or could have, on the lives of real people.

Faithfully applying our Constitution’s 18th- and 19th-century text to 21st-century problems requires not only careful attention to the text, fidelity to the framers’ goals and respect for precedent, but also an awareness of the practical realities of the present. Only with such awareness can judges, in a constantly changing society, hope to keep faith with our highest law.

This does not mean judges are free to make up the law as they go along. But it does mean that constitutional law is not a mechanical exercise of just “applying the law.” Before there can be a serious national dialogue about our Constitution, our laws and the proper role of our judges, that myth must be exposed.
parados
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 09:01 am
@maporsche,
Quote:
It turns out the author WAS talking about the SCOTUS

He quotes justices sitting on the USSC (I dislike the term SCOTUS) but I don't see where he says the cases are only ones ruled on by them unless you want to argue that conservative justices ONLY sit on the USSC.
plainoldme
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 09:33 am
@ican711nm,
unfortunately, most of those who make money today do it unlawfully or they pay lobbyists to change the laws in order to get away with thievery if not murder. Consider Don Blankensip.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 09:35 am
@maporsche,
Thanks for your effort, but I have reproduced this in a thread about this story.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 09:36 am
@H2O MAN,
Hatred is the stock and trade from the right across time and nation states: the KKK, the Nazis, the Fascists in Spain, the Tea Party.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 09:52 am
@parados,
I give up.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 10:03 am
@JamesMorrison,
Quote:
Just a personal observation about affirmative action (AA): I have always wondered, how those that would seek to rectify discrimination against a certain group could justify discrimination against another as remedial.


The purpose of Affirmative Action is not to 'rectify discrimination,' but instead to maximize diversity in all levels of society with the hope of allowing previously disadvantaged groups to reach a so-called 'critical mass' point in which they can no longer be said to be disadvantaged.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 11:40 am
@plainoldme,


You are only kidding yourself if you believe any of the crap you just said.
And no matter what happened in the past, today's hate filled moron such as yourself leans to the left.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 11:55 am
@plainoldme,


POM - you need to simmer down.


NO ARRESTS HAVE BEEN MADE ... THERE ARE NO RECORDINGS ... NO VIDEO TAPES
...THERE IS NOTHING THAT PROVES THE TEA PARTY PATRIOTS ARE VIOLENT TERRORISTS ...
 

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