AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

@Cycloptichorn,

I'm not Okie, but here are some suggestions.

Eliminate the Dept of Education.
Eliminate the BIA
Eliminate all foreign aid except emergency aid (disaster relief).
Eliminate all types of welfare payments, SSI payments, or any other type of govt payments to people that refuse to work or cant work due to their own actions (drug addicts)

Thats a start, but I am sure I can find more cuts.
Then take all that money and apply it to the debt.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

Why couldn't you say that? I'm not saying that I think it'd be a good idea or not...but of course that is an option.

I agree with you that POLITICALLY it's impossible....but in theory it is one of many possibilities.

You couldn't say that, because SS and Medicare taxes are separate from income taxes. If you cut the scope of the program, you aren't adding extra monies from payroll taxes into the pot - you're cutting a program which has a very specific but separate taxation mechanism. It would take major changes to the underlying tax brackets and structure of our system to accomplish this.

So it's not a good solution to our problems. It would be a way to lower taxes for people, sure; but it won't pay down the debt or balance the budget.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

H2O MAN wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I'd love to see how you balance the budget and service the debt without paying additional taxes.

Have your boy stop his reckless spending. De-fund all that he has shoved down our throats so far and boot his inexperienced ass out of office.

Now work to greatly reduce the size and scope of our government, cut taxes, adopt The FairTax Plan and watch real change happen.

I'd love to see specifics on how to reduce the size and scopt of our government and the impact that will have...in actual dollars.

I agree with you that those things are important to look at. I suggest that we start by cutting defense spending by at least 50%.

I don't think you or your conservative friends understand that TAX INCREASES used specifically in order to pay down the debt ARE GOING TO BE REQUIRED. I think spending cuts should be used to pay down the deficit. But increased taxes are going to be needed to pay down the debt.

You are spot on - they don't realize it, and that is what's necessary.

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

Well, given that these programs have some pretty significant budget shortfalls in the coming decades; cutting the programs back significantly and keeping taxes as high as needed to pay for their long term costs would help reduce future deficits.

I think reducing SS benefits and Medicare should be considered, or increase the taxes on them to ensure that the programs are paid for long term.

This really only helps the deficit of course...the debt is another matter.

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@mysteryman,

Only 800-900 billion to go until we reach the point where the deficit is at zero and we stop adding to the debt. We'll need an extra 500 billion if we hope to pay off the debt in 25 years.

If your goal is to pay off the debt in 25 years, and to stop adding to it in 2011. You will need to find something like 1.5 trillion next year to cut.

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@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

I agree with you that those things are important to look at. I suggest that we start by cutting defense spending by at least 50%.

I don't think you or your conservative friends understand that TAX INCREASES used specifically in order to pay down the debt ARE GOING TO BE REQUIRED. I think spending cuts should be used to pay down the deficit. But increased taxes are going to be needed to pay down the debt.

No, no and Hell no.

Cutting the defense budget in half would equal a drop in the bucket, the politicians would just spend the money elsewhere and the effect would be a weaker nation with even more debt.

Tax increases NEVER WORK! New taxes are NOT required.

Tax cuts, The FairTax Plan and a greatly reduced government ARE GOING TO BE REQUIRED if this country is to recover from previous mistakes and Obamanomics. The government does not need to collect any additional tax dollars. In fact, they need to learn how to do a much better job with LESS OF OUR MONEY. If they can't do that, fire them and find people that can.

1 Reply

It is exceedingly obvious that some here have no idea how much some government programs cost.

Cycloptichorn

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Don't quote me on these numbers. I went googling and came up with what I think are reliable sources for this. But I can't vouch for it all.
Our defense budget for fiscal 2010 is listed at $664Bn. I suspect that there is a bunch more which is off-budget because we are at war. Cutting that in half, as was suggested here, would cut the deficit by more than $300Bn. Does anyone have a problem with that?
Eliminating the Department of Education has been mentioned a couple of times. Its budget is $46Bn. I have no idea regarding how much of that is paper shuffling and how much is grants to school districts that would be lost.
I am not a big fan of Federal crop subsidies. $20Bn a year, mostly to produce corn for ethanol. Cotton, wheat and rice follow. And then we find dairy and peanuts and, still in the hunt, tobacco, wool and honey.

The challenge here is to come up with a whole lot of spending cuts. Specific cuts.

1 Reply

@realjohnboy,

As a total aside on this before tax day, April 15th.
What would yall guess (no peaking) is the 2010 budget for the IRS?

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@realjohnboy,

Can't guess, but I bet they got enough accountants to justify most anything.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Okay; show us how you would do it. List off the programs you would cut, not only to balance the current budget but to also service the 200-300 billion dollars a year it would take to pay down the debt. Remember that if you cut SS and Medicare, you don't get any additional revenue, because the taxes paid into them would be cut accordingly.Cycloptichorn

I will make my suggestions, but before I do so, please explain your above statement. How does cutting pay increases in Social Security for example cut taxes paid into them?

Cutting pay increases doesn't, but cutting the overall scope of the program - which is to say, getting rid of them - does. For example, you can't just answer 'I'll cut SS in half' and then apply those funds to balancing the budget.

Go ahead - I'd love to see how you balance the budget and service the debt without paying additional taxes.

Cycloptichorn

Okay, so you admit your statement was false. And you were attempting to make assumptions about my solutions before I stated any solution whatsoever. Before answering your question about cutting spending, I have to try to clear up any false statements or preconceived notions that you may have. To prepare you for what my solution will be, I will essentially propose to grow ourselves out of the deficiit by reducing the rate of growth of spending in things like entitlements, and by eliminating programs that are a total waste of money that essentially produce nothing.

2 Replies

@H2O MAN,

I don't think you fully understand the scope of the problem. And you know for a fact that the fair tax has no chance of passing either a republican or democratic majority. He'll even if republicans have a super majority and Obama supported it there'd be no chance.

So, knowing that. What is your next solution, maybe focus on one that is at least feasible.

It's almost like saying that the solution to our problems are to send flying pigs to mars to collect the genie in the bottle to grant us three wishes.

That could solve our problems, but is of course not going to happen, so we should try something else.

1 Reply

@okie,

Just curious if you know how much we'd have to grow to accomplish that. I could do the math, but am curious if you have so I don't have too.

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@maporsche,

The FairTax Plan does have a chance of passing.

As for trying something else, we are trying Obama and he's been a supreme failure since he was anointed.

1 Reply

@H2O MAN,

Your posts are not of enough substance to keep me interested in continuing this conversation with you.

I'm sorry.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

I should add that I, in theory, support many of the FairTax plans that I've seen.

The only problem I see though as it relates to the balancing the budget/paying off debt argument we're discussing here...is that the source of the taxes is really irrelevant. The FACT remains that overall tax revenue will HAVE to increase (either income tax or fair tax or other tax) to pay off our debt. I don't see any other way around this.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

I should add that I, in theory, support many of the FairTax plans that I've seen.

Plans?

There is only one plan and it will increase tax revenues.
The problem is that nobody is holding the government accountable for how they spend tax dollars.

If the government taxed us @ 90% they would find a way to spend all of it, rack up a huge deficit and come to us for the final 10%.

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@H2O MAN,

No doubt, but this isn't only an Obama problem. Every president since Carter (except Clinton) has added to the debt in significant ways.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

That's mostly true, but Obama ran on the promise of Hope & Change and he's delivered despair and change for the worse.
Also, Obama is the president elected by the people and the problem (all problems) are 100% Obama's.

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Okay; show us how you would do it. List off the programs you would cut, not only to balance the current budget but to also service the 200-300 billion dollars a year it would take to pay down the debt. Remember that if you cut SS and Medicare, you don't get any additional revenue, because the taxes paid into them would be cut accordingly.Cycloptichorn

I will make my suggestions, but before I do so, please explain your above statement. How does cutting pay increases in Social Security for example cut taxes paid into them?

Cutting pay increases doesn't, but cutting the overall scope of the program - which is to say, getting rid of them - does. For example, you can't just answer 'I'll cut SS in half' and then apply those funds to balancing the budget.

Go ahead - I'd love to see how you balance the budget and service the debt without paying additional taxes.

Cycloptichorn

Okay, so you admit your statement was false. And you were attempting to make assumptions about my solutions before I stated any solution whatsoever. Before answering your question about cutting spending, I have to try to clear up any false statements or preconceived notions that you may have. To prepare you for what my solution will be, I will essentially propose to grow ourselves out of the deficiit by reducing the rate of growth of spending in things like entitlements, and by eliminating programs that are a total waste of money that essentially produce nothing.

My statement was not false, because cutting SS and Medicare funds and cutting the growth rate of those programs are not the same thing. In fact, that's a long-time Republican talking point. And I was attempting to make assumptions about your solutions - which turn out to be accurate ones, because the first thing you talk about cutting are entitlement programs such as Medicare and SS. Remind me - do you, or do you not, receive monies from those programs yourself?

But, go ahead. Show us what programs you would cut and in what amounts, and how that ends up with a balanced budget and the US paying down the debt without raising taxes. I would like to see if you have any actual knowledge of how much we spend on different programs. I don't think you do.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

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