55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
MASSAGAT
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 12:40 am
@JamesMorrison,
JM- Cyclops attempts to belittle your post and attacks Rand. I am not an expert on Rand but at least Rand is consistent in her philosophy. If you read Obama's pre-election blurbs, you will find that he has lied repeatedly!
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 06:53 am
@MASSAGAT,
Quote:
Current estimates put U.S. health care spending at approximately 16% of GDP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States

Somehow it seems Possum thinks 16% of GDP isn't enough to allow for control of the commerce?

You will notice Possum that in the case you listed it was NOT about buying anything which means it was 0% of GDP.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 07:33 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
Somehow it seems Possum thinks 16% of GDP isn't enough to allow for control of the commerce?

Americans value their health.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 07:36 am
@MASSAGAT,
Rand is consistent largely because she is dead and has been for years.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 07:41 am
@JamesMorrison,
Thank you for acknowledging that you heard the NPR story I referenced and that it was as I said it was.

There are games that I am not playing here and one game is supplying babies with pacifiers in the form of citations.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 09:28 am
http://www.frumforum.com/how-the-gop-purged-me

Quote:
How the GOP Purged Me
April 5th, 2010 at 12:35 pm by Chris Currey | 201 Comments |
Share

I am an old Republican. I am religious, yet not a fanatic. I am a free-marketer; yet, I believe in the role of the government as a fair evenhanded referee. I am socially conservative; yet, I believe that my lesbian niece and my gay grandchild should have the full protection of the law and live as free Americans enjoying every aspect of our society with no prejudices and/or restrictions. Nowadays, my political and socio-economic profile would make me a Marxist, not a Republican.

I grew up in an era where William F. Buckley fought the John Birch society and kicked them out of the Republican Party. I grew up with -" in fact voted for the first time for "- Eisenhower. In 1956, he ran a campaign of dignity. A campaign that acknowledged that there are certain projects better suited to be handled by the government. See, business thinks in the short term, as he said. That’s the imperative of the marketplace. I invest and I expect that in a few quarters, I garner the fruits of my investment. Government, on the other hand, has the luxury to wait a few years, maybe decades, for a return on a given investment. As a former businessman, I know that first hand. Am I a Marxist for thinking that?

I witnessed the fight for equal civil rights in the 1960s. And as a proud American, I applauded the passage of the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act, and we became a better country because of them. Those acts made America stronger. Those acts, at their core, represented and still represent all the values upon which the Republican Party was founded. Yet today, our GOP representatives and leaders are ashamed of them. When they talk about them, you feel their discomfort, their clumsiness, and sometimes their shame. That awkwardness is so strong that it crosses the television screen and hits you in the face in your living room. Why is that? What happened to this generation of Republicans? We are the party of Abraham Lincoln, and yet we act and behave as if we are the party of Nathan Bedford Forrest.

I did not like Medicaid and Medicare when they were passed. I was opposed to them. Maybe I was too young, too strong, and too ideologically confined. Yet, over the years, I saw how Medicare helped millions of elderly Americans. I saw how Medicare helped my mom in her final years battling emphysema caused by years of smoking. You have to be blind to oppose those programs. You have to be blind to wish for the suffering of millions of Americans just because you believe in personal responsibility.

As a businessman, I was torn between my bottom line and providing health coverage for my employees. I knew that if I provided them with that coverage, their productivity increases. I did my best, but the riptide of the health insurance market defeated me. And with a heavy heart, I offered them gimmicky coverages that, deep down, I knew did not provide a comprehensive and adequate coverage, but it was the only coverage I could afford.

I voted for Nixon and for Reagan. Although I did not like the deficit spending of the Reagan administration, I blamed it on and rationalized it by the necessities of fighting the Cold War. I liked Reagan " who didn’t? Even my Democrat and liberal friends liked and respected him. I voted for Clinton, twice. I thought he was the best Republican president since Ike. No, I did not make a mistake. Bill Clinton was closer ideologically to Eisenhower and Nixon than Bush I and II could ever be. I thought that Clinton practiced and articulated true Republican ideology in his fiscal discipline, job creation, smart tax cuts, and foreign policy better than anyone since Ike.

Then something happened in the 1990s. The leaders of the GOP grew belligerent. They became too religious, almost zealots. They became intolerant. They began searching for purity in Republican thought and doctrine. Ideology blinded them. I continued to vote Republican, but with a certain unease. Deep down I knew that a schism happened between the modern Republican Party and the one I grew up with. During the fight over the impeachment of President Clinton, the ugly face of the Republican Party was brought to the surface. Empty rhetoric, ideological intolerance, vengeance, and religious zealotry became the common currency. Suddenly, if you are pro-choice, you could not be a Republican. If you are for smart and sensible taxes to balance out the budget, you could not be a Republican. If you are pro-civil rights, you could not be a Republican.

It started with minorities: they left the party. Then women; they divorced the GOP and sent it to sleep on the couch. Then, the young folks; they left and are leaving the Republican Party in droves. Then, someone stood up and told my niece and my grandchild that they are not fully Americans " just second class Americans because they are homosexual. They wished hell and damnation upon my loved ones just because they are different. Are we led by priests or are we led by rational politicians? Now, we have became the party of the Old Straight White Folks. We should rename the Republican Party the OSWF rather than the GOP.

Recently, since the election of Barack Obama, common sense has left the Republican Party completely. We are in the era of craziness. As David Frum has written, a deal was there to be made over the healthcare bill. Instead, this ideological purity blinded the GOP. As LBJ said it, instead of being inside the tent pissing out, we choose to be outside the tent, pissing against the wind. And we got splashed by our own nonsense. Why did we do that? Well, when a political party shrinks its electoral based to below 30% and is composed by one demographic group, all that is left are a bunch of zealots. We shrank it by kicking out of the party those who believe that abortion should be legal but limited. We shrank it by kicking out those who believe that an $11 trillion economy, like ours, needs a strong government, not a government that can be drowned in a bathtub. We shrank it when we sanctified Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Glenn Beck, and canonized Sarah Palin. These are the leaders of my party nowadays. How did we go from William F. Buckley to Glenn Beck? How did we go from Eisenhower and Nixon to Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann? I do not know. What I do know, however, is that these leaders remind of me of the leaders of the Whig Party. And if they continue on their nonsense, they will bring the collapse of the GOP.

I do not recognize myself in the Republican Party anymore. As someone said it before, I did not leave the Republican Party, the Republican Party left me. I have the same ideological positions on most of the issues that I had when I voted for Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan and George W. Bush in 2000. However, I just cannot trust the reins of our government and nation, of this formidably complicated and complex gigantic machine that is the USA, to the amateurish leadership of the Republican Party.

We are living through tough times. We are being challenged like I have never seen America being challenged before. China is a formidable foe, and it is out there competing against us on every field and beating us on several fronts. While our education budgets are being slashed in every state across the nation, China is doubling and tripling theirs. These are the challenges and challengers that we are facing. And we need our best and brightest to lead us, not a half-term governor or radio/TV talking heads.

Maybe I am too old and too cynical, but I think the Republican party is in the last stages of agony. If nothing happens, we might win an election or even two, but in the long run we will lose America.


Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 06:19 pm
Too many members of the Republican Party in 2005 forgot who they represented and how to represent them. Obamademocrats have reawakened a great many of their memories.

They are now fully aware that the Obamademocrats are striving to redistribute wealth at the expense of American's individual liberty, Constitutional Republic, and Capitalist economy. They are fully aware that the redistribution of wealth will result in increasing dependence of the lower and middle classes on government instead of privately depending on their own efforts to make their lives achieve whatever laudable objectives they seek.

These Republicans now realize that they are far better equipped to determine how to privately help their fellow human beings grow and prosper and fulfill their dreams than are any government bureaucrats. They know that redistribution of wealth diminishes the total wealth of all classes--lower, middle, and higher--and consequently diminishes everyone's future, except the futures of the Obamademocrats in government.

Obamademocrats are greedy for power over their fellow human beings. Attaining that power is their END. They will continue to utilize whatever MEANS serves their ends. They will not be be concerned with whether or not their means and processes for achieving their ends adhere to the rules of law or of ethics, or of morality. For them, their ends suffice to justify their means.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 06:40 pm
It is so . . . fill in the missing word from a word bank that includes disheartening, disgusting . . . that the right continues to describe itself and then says it is talking about the left.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 02:38 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

http://www.frumforum.com/how-the-gop-purged-me

Quote:
How the GOP Purged Me
April 5th, 2010 at 12:35 pm by Chris Currey | 201 Comments |
Share

How did we go from Eisenhower and Nixon to Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann? I do not know.

Cycloptichorn

I think I have the answer to your Chris Currey question. We have lost our way because of the Chris Currys of the world losing their way, America degenerating in culture, becoming less responsible, practicing less citizenship, losing our collective American soul, our educational system to mediocrity, becoming co-dependent upon government. I am also sorry to tell Curry that I believe he does not remember Eisenhower as he truly was. I can tell him about Eisenhower's article written titled "Why I am a Republican," and tell him that the same reasons Eisenhower wrote then would still apply today, and in fact Eisenhower was in no way shape or form even close to being anything like a liberal or Democrat today, he would be a conservative Republican. It is the Currys of the world that have lost their way.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 12:05 pm
@okie,
If our culture is degenerating, it is because of all the right wingers who think being educated means holding an MBA. It is because schools are run by bottom liners rather than the educated. It is because people would rather watch Survivor than Nova.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 12:08 pm
@okie,
You guys are going to continue to have problems, if you throw every criticism from members of your own party back in their face. A failure to self-examine is a death knell for anyone.

Your inability to see the differences between Eisenhower and Palin is a little shocking, Okie. Seriously.

Cycloptichorn
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 12:52 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I'm far too young to have seen the Republican party change the way he describes. I have read about some of the old guard though, and from what I understand of Barry Goldwater, for example, I agree with many of his points of view.

If the Republicans were to go back to being fiscally disciplined and dropped the religious zealots (and their policies); I could see myself supporting them.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 12:56 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

It is because schools are run by bottom liners rather than the educated.
It is because people would rather watch Survivor than Nova.


Government schools and higher education are bastions of the left.
The left and government education go hand in hand
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 01:10 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

If our culture is degenerating, it is because of all the right wingers who think being educated means holding an MBA. It is because schools are run by bottom liners rather than the educated. It is because people would rather watch Survivor than Nova.

Interesting post. No way do I think holding an MBA is the only means of education worth anything. For your information, I have numerous, very numerous friends who are in the trades, plumbing, electrical, building construction, farming, and I also know very very well many professionals, engineers, doctors, geologists, you name it, in fact I know very few MBAs, and the one or two that come to mind have not been all that successful. Many of the people I know in the trades that never went past high school are some of the best people I know. Perhaps I know a few MBAs that I do business with, but having an MBA does not correlate that well with their business prowess I don't think. My parents taught me, and I have taught my children as well as I can to find a productive endeavor that you are interested in, enjoy, and that you can do well, then do it as well as you can. First and foremost, show up to work on time, treat your employer fair with an honest days work, and everything usually works out well at the end of the day. It certainly has for me. In fact I had a nice conversation with the trash pickup guy the other day and made the point that I appreciated his work, that he got up every day to serve us the customers, that his job was very important, and I got a hearty thankful look from him, which helped my day that day.
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 01:32 pm
@H2O MAN,
I oppose the nationalization of schools while many righties think that should happen.
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 01:35 pm
@H2O MAN,
Furthermore, when I was in grad school, it was the left wing students who wanted to return to the Seven Liberal ARts, who made the deans list, who insisted that teachers major in the subject(s) they wished to teach and not in education. The righties took the easy way out. Like you, they knew nothing. In fact, their 19th C spiritual ancestors were called THe Know Nothings.

I detest ignorance.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 01:37 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

I'm far too young to have seen the Republican party change the way he describes. I have read about some of the old guard though, and from what I understand of Barry Goldwater, for example, I agree with many of his points of view.

If the Republicans were to go back to being fiscally disciplined and dropped the religious zealots (and their policies); I could see myself supporting them.

maporsche, I remember clearly the campaign between Goldwater and Johnson, and I can tell you the Democrats demonized Goldwater exactly the same way they are attempting to do to Republicans today. And they were successful, in fact check out the Daisy Girl campaign ad (you can find it on youtube) that LBJ ran on Goldwater to paint him as a war monger and scare the bejeebers out of people, he used demagoguery just like the Dems do it today, to try to convince everyone that Repubs are a bunch of right wing extreme hate mongers and all of the rest of the crap they use.

And I would caution you to not overestimate the impact of religious zealots, in fact religious people are a big part of what made this country great and to have a moral foundation, and without moral foundation, we are not going to have a good future. Fiscal discipline, the only place this will be found in terms of support is in the conservative / Republican side of the aisle, period.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 01:40 pm
@okie,
Here is the famous Daisy Girl Ad used by LBJ, the same guy that later started the Vietnam War using false and trumped up information.

0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 01:45 pm
@okie,
Quote:

And I would caution you to not overestimate the impact of religious zealots, in fact religious people are a big part of what made this country great and to have a moral foundation, and without moral foundation, we are not going to have a good future. Fiscal discipline, the only place this will be found in terms of support is in the conservative / Republican side of the aisle, period.


Yeah, that's why our founding fathers started the country - to let it be ran by religious zealots! Not so much. In fact, while they themselves were religious people, they considered the mixture of religion and policy to be abhorrent and they would hate our modern situation. It used to be a secret what religion (sect of Christianity, really) the president was, even!

As for the fiscal discipline, another joke. Sure, Republicans cut taxes. But when's the last time they cut spending in any meaningful way? Not during my lifetime!

Cycloptichorn
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 01:56 pm
@plainoldme,

That was then... today's government school system and the vast majority of higher
learning centers are liberal to the core. The teachers unions are also liberal.
 

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