55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 10:44 am
@Foxfyre,
those tea parties spewed a lot of hate.

do you condone hate speech, as a MAC?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 10:45 am
@JPB,
Don't expect Foxie to answer your q's. Just another of Foxie's contradictions.
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 10:49 am
I'll start...

as a non MAC, I found the tea parties to be a disgusting display of ignorant people showing their ugly sides to the world.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 10:50 am
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:

those tea parties spewed a lot of hate.

do you condone hate speech, as a MAC?


Nope. Do you condone hate speech as a liberal? Did you see demonstrations by your side as hateful, ignorant, and disgusting?
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 10:52 am
@Foxfyre,
why do you keep labeling me a liberal?

labels and marks...
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 10:54 am
@Foxfyre,
you just showed glorious support for the tea parties.

why back down now?
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 10:55 am
do MACs believe in win at all costs?


(ooops its high noon, I got a appointment)

back later...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:03 am
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:

why do you keep labeling me a liberal?

labels and marks...


Because you have been defending and promoting liberal concepts and denigrate and apparently despise any values or ideals held by MACs.

Do you think liberals are as capable or more capable of hate speech than MACs?

And yes, I think the Tea Parties are great and I think they demontrate that probably most Americans are in agreement in general with most MAC ideals and/or are relearning to appreciate those ideals.

Here's a tiny sampling from liberal protests. Compare those with those signs and the rhetoric at the Tea Parties if you think the Tea Parties were somehow more 'hateful'. In truth, when you contrast the emphasis of the Tea Parties compared to the truly hateful venon spewed by the Left, most Tea Parties were not hateful at all.

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/ringobushitler1.jpg

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/imheretokillbushsmall.jpg

http://www.zombietime.com/us_out_of_iraq_now_sf_3-18-2007/IMG_2416.JPG

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/saveearthkillbush.jpg

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/hangbushringo.jpg

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/Bush_is_the_disease.jpg

http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_march_20_2004/anti-american/119-1912_IMG.JPG

http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_february_16_2003/9-11_=_Reichstag_banner2.jpg

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/imheretokillbush.jpg

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/onlydoperingo.jpg

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/headshotringo.jpg

http://www.zombietime.com/sf_anti-war_rally_oct_27_2007/passive-aggressive_syndrome/IMG_9676.JPG

http://www.zombietime.com/us_out_of_iraq_now_sf_3-18-2007/IMG_2393.JPG

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/BushWhackerElMarco.jpg

http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rallies_june_5+6_2004/signs/125-2584_IMG.JPG

http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_september_24_2005/bds/IMG_2320.JPG

http://www.zombietime.com/global_day_of_action_march_18_2006/IMG_5632.JPG
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:05 am
@Foxfyre,
quit dodging and answer, or i call bullshit on the way you argue.

and your christian principles...

I gotta go earn some money now.
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:10 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
The recent million plus member march on Washington


I think the number turned out to be about 70,000....
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:11 am
@Rockhead,
Noting that Rockhead is a generally a lovable and okay guy, but he is apparently incapable of answering a simple question regarding liberals and conservatives.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:11 am
Liberals in our House of Representatives now limit speech, so our representatives cannot:

• call the President a “liar.”
• call the President a “hypocrite.”
• describe the President’s veto of a bill as “cowardly.”
• charge that the President has been “intellectually dishonest.”
• refer to the President as “giving aid and comfort to the enemy.”
• refer to alleged “sexual misconduct on the President’s part.”


Are the rest of us next?

And of course, criticizing the president is racial, according to them. When was the last time Michael Steele accused his detractors of racism when they rip him to shreds? Answer, he hasn't, because he has some degree of decency.

0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:12 am
and no, I do not defend those signs or marches, nor can you find where I did.

You just put up emphatic support for the tea parties.

what would jesus do?
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:13 am
@Foxfyre,
who is incapable?

I asked you a couple very direct questions.

belittling me won't work, and is not very christian.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:15 am
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
The recent million plus member march on Washington


I think the number turned out to be about 70,000....


Yeah, I was waiting to see who here would repeat the mega-inflated number bullshit, and - do you think I am surprised? Laughing

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:22 am
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
The recent million plus member march on Washington


I think the number turned out to be about 70,000....


Post your source. I've seen estimates as high as 2 million, most think it was at least a million, but I could live with 700,000. Whatever the number, it was an impressive turnout and exceeded all expectations of the organizers. And the deliberate and intentional downplaying of it by the MSM (other than Fox) is disgraceful and a testimony that we no longer have much integrity in most of the media.

Quote:
How Many People Came to 9/12 Taxpayer March on Washington?
By Max on Sep 14, 2009

President Obama drew 15,000 people to hear him pitch his health care overhaul in Minnesota this past Saturday. Meanwhile back in Washington, we had that many people waiting in line at the port-a-potties at the Taxpayer March on Washington because we woefully underestimated how many people would travel across the country to bring their message of limited government and fiscal responsibility to DC.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/09/12/article-1213056-0666DB48000005DC-801_634x330.jpg

We’re trying to figure out exactly how many people were here so we can release a reliable number. If we had 1.5 million, we had 100 times the president’s turnout. If we had 750,000, we had 50 times as many, and if we had 300,000, we still had 20 people for every one he had. Any of those numbers puts the Taxpayer March on Washington among the biggest ever in DC, and certainly the biggest showing by fiscal conservatives. But the specific number is not important. What is important is that it was a very large and significant crowd here to ask Washington for less involvement in their lives and the economy.

We thought the sound system we got to reach 100,000 would have been enough. Most of the people in attendance couldn’t hear the speakers. We thought the permits for park space for 100,000 would be enough. It wasn’t nearly enough. And don’t even get me started on the port-a-potties.

The lack of coverage in the media is shocking, as noted in this Fox News clip:


Democratic offices in Congress warned that as many as 2 million protestors may come to town.

C-SPAN opens this online recording of the Taxpayer March on Washington, which they are showing tonight at 9 pm on C-SPAN 2, with a good clip showing part of the crowd so you can judge for yourself. They pan left, and you see the stage was surrounded by a sea of people everywhere but on the Capitol steps, which were blocked off.

Had they panned right toward Pennsylvania Ave, NW, down which the march was still coming, you’d have seen even more people.

Perhaps the most telling images are from this time-lapse video, shot from a roof on the corner of 14th and E St, NW, looking down Pennsylvania Ave, NW toward the Capitol, showing the March.
http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/max/how-many-people-came-to-912-taxpayer-march-on-wash


cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:24 am
@Cycloptichorn,
The pattern is clear; they exaggerate everything that makes MACs look good, and minimize everything that makes MACs look bad. They do the exact opposite for liberals.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:31 am
@Foxfyre,
Here's another time lapse video giving the long view. Mega inflated? I don't think so.

Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:32 am
@Foxfyre,
that's a lot of cows, foxy...

cool pic though.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:32 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

old europe wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
The recent million plus member march on Washington


I think the number turned out to be about 70,000....


Post your source. I've seen estimates as high as 2 million, most think it was at least a million, but I could live with 700,000.


Not 700,000.

70,000. And that's the high end of the estimates.

I'm sure that in tea partier circles, higher numbers have been thrown around. I don't think think you can come up with a reputable source that confirms those numbers.

Here's Nate Silver's take on the issue. Note the links in the article:

Quote:
Size Matters; So Do Lies

Back in April, when there was a round of several hundred "tea party" protests across the country to coincide with Tax Day, I devoted significant attention to figuring out how many people had actually attended the rallies. The best figure I could come up with was at least 300,000 -- "at least" being an important caveat because there were dozens of smaller tea party protests for which no reliable crowd size estimates were available. The real number was probably something between 350,000 and 400,000.

This was, I believed at the time and continue to believe, a relatively impressive figure. It is also one that liberals were silly to be so predictably and universally dismissive of. Indeed, the protests were a harbinger for the tough slog ahead for Democrats on health care and other issues. Yes, the grievances that these protesters had may have been somewhat disconnected, and their rank might have run the gamut from ordinary, red-meat conservatives and to the black helicopter set. But, anger is still anger -- and a lot of people, self-evidently, were angry.

At the same time, in attempting to cobble together literally hundreds of independent, local newspaper reports to come up with this figure, I learned a few things about the gamesmanship involved in the reporting of crowd size estimates. Namely, there is a lot of misleading information out there -- some resulting from deliberate lies from protest organizers who exaggerate about how many people they'd drawn to their events, and some of it arising more innocently -- estimating the size of a crowd actually isn't all that easy, particularly if you're in the midst of one. This misinformation, moreover, tended to be self-perpetuating: an organizer might tell a reporter from a local radio station that they'd drawn 3,000 people to their event (when really they'd drawn 800); the 3,000 figure would be picked up by the local TV station, and then the next day on by the local newspaper, which had heard the number on TV. At each stage of the process, as in a game of "telephone", the fidelity of the information was degraded. Perhaps the appropriate context on the number (that it had not been independently verified) had been dutifully reported by the radio station -- but by the time the the transmission had made its way to the newspaper, that context had been lost. The Atlanta rally, for instance, was reported by the local CBS station to have drawn some 15,000 persons -- a figure which, it was later discovered, would quite literally have been physically impossible.

Usually, though, these exaggerations were contained within some reasonable bounds. The estimate reported by CBS Atlanta, for example, appears to have been about double the actual crowd size in that city. I found other cases in which there might have been a threefold or fourfold discrepancy between the numbers claimed by protesters and those provided by local fire departments or sheriff's offices. But almost never more than that -- at some point, a lie ceases to be credible. And of course, there were many protest organizers that provided perfectly honest estimates of their turnouts. I even came across a couple of cases in which they appeared to have lowballed the numbers relative to the estimates provided by independent observers.

But yesterday, someone told a real whopper. ABC News, citing the DC fire department, reported that between 60,000 and 70,000 people had attended the tea party rally at the Capitol. By the time this figure reached Michelle Malkin, however, it had been blown up to 2,000,000. There is a big difference, obviously, between 70,000 and 2,000,000. That's not a twofold or threefold exaggeration -- it's roughly a thirtyfold exaggeration.

The way this false estimate came into being is relatively simple: Matt Kibbe, the president of FreedomWorks, lied, claiming that ABC News had reported numbers of between 1.0 and 1.5 million when they never did anything of the sort. A few tweets later, the numbers had been exaggerated still further to 2 million. Kibbe wasn't "in error", as Malkin gently puts it. He lied. He did the equivalent of telling people that his penis is 53 inches long.

Malkin, who to her credit later corrected the error, frets that it might be used to by liberals to "discredit the undeniably massive turnout". She's right to be worried -- it absolutely will be used that way. If you don't want to be discredited, then don't, as Kibbe did, tell a ridiculous (and easily disprovable) lie.

Malkin herself did not lie; she merely repeated a lie. It does not particularly call into question her character. It does, however, call into question her judgment. The reason is that if there had in fact been 2 million protesters in Washington yesterday, there would have been no need to lie about it -- the magnitude of the protests would have been self-evident. I was in Washington for the inauguration, an event at which there really were almost 2 million people present -- and let me tell you, it was a Holy Mess. Hotels, charging double or treble their usual rates, were booked weeks in advance. Major stations on the Metro system were shut down for hours at a time. The National Guard was brought in. At least 3,000 people got stuck in a tunnel. Essentially the entirely of the National Mall, from the Capitol to the Washington Monument, was dotted with onlookers. Heaps of trash were left behind. The entire city was basically a warzone for a period of about 20 hours, from midnight through mid-evening.

But there are no accounts of any of those sorts of things happening yesterday. 70 thousand people, rather, is about the number that will attend the Washington Redskins' home opener next week. That's a lot of people. Washington -- actually Landover, Maryland, where FedEx Field is located -- will be inconvenienced. But it won't be shut down. Business will go on more or less as usual.

This was not a small rally. It was also not, in comparison with something like the 2006 pro-immigration protests, a particularly large rally. It was a business-as-usual sort of rally. Mock the protesters at your peril: business as usual suddenly isn't so good for Democrats these days, and the sentiments of the 70,000 people who marched on Washington surely mirror those of millions more sitting at home. They were done a disservice by being represented by a liar like Kibbe.
 

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