55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:37 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Post your source. I've seen estimates as high as 2 million, most think it was at least a million, but I could live with 700,000.


Also:

Quote:
ABC News Was Misquoted on Crowd Size

ABC News Reported D.C. Rally Size in Tens of Thousands, Not 1M to 1.5M as Activist Said.

Conservative activists, who organized a march on the U.S. Capitol today in protest of the Obama administration's health care agenda and government spending, erroneously attributed reports on the size of the crowds to ABC News.

Matt Kibbe, president of FreedomWorks, the group that organized the event, said on stage at the rally Saturday that ABC News was reporting that 1 million to 1.5 million people were in attendance.

At no time did ABC News, or its affiliates, report a number anywhere near as large. ABCNews.com reported an approximate figure of 60,000 to 70,000 protesters, attributed to the Washington, D.C., fire department. In its reports, ABC News Radio described the crowd as "tens of thousands."

Brendan Steinhauser, spokesman for FreedomWorks, said he did not know why Kibbe cited ABC News as a source.

As a result of Kibbe's erroneous attribution, several bloggers and commenters repeated the misinformation.

In his blog, Kibbe apologized Sunday for the mistaken attribution of the crowd-size estimated to ABC News.

"With a dead IPhone, I had been shown tweets from a number of different folks behind the stage citing the ABC estimate," he wrote. "They didn't say it. I regret misrepresenting the network, as their coverage that day was fair and honest."

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:43 am
@old europe,
From ABC News:
Quote:

DC ‘Tea Party’ Crowd Estimate: How Did Thousands Become Millions?

September 14, 2009 3:24 PM

ABC's Yunji de Nies reports from Washington:

There’s been a lot of debate over just how many people attended the 912 March in Washington on Saturday. On Friday, organizers from Freedom Works, the group that planned the event, told ABC News that they were permitted for 3000 people, but that 30,000 had signed up via their website.

Then late Friday night, a memo from Doug Thornel, an aide to Congressman Chris Van Hollen (D-MD), began making its way across the web. The memo warned that the rally could be much bigger than some had anticipated. It read, “It looks like Saturday’s event is going to be a huge gathering, estimates ranging from hundreds of thousands to 2 million people.” Thornel cited several blogs including mediamatters.org, NYTimes.com, GOPExiles.com and 912dc.org.

Protest The next morning, I arrived on the Mall, near the Capitol steps, for a Weekend Good Morning America report about the day ahead. At 7am, there were very few people there and I reported than tens of thousands were expected. The rally was to begin about a mile away at Freedom Plaza. I made my way there and met up with our camera crew and producer. The crowd was thick around 9am, and as the morning progressed, grew substantially. I tweeted about what I was seeing, and maintained throughout that I would not rely on my own eyeball estimate, but instead defer to DC officials for a head count.

The problem is that Park Police and Capitol Police do not release such estimates and have not for years. The reasoning is that those giving out those numbers became too political. Whether on the right or the left, organizers repeatedly accused officials of underestimating the crowds. The only official agency to do so that day was DC police, which tweeted (under the handle @dcfireems) at 11:43am “UPDATE - several people treated for injury and illness on the Mall nothing extraordinary unofficial crowds 60,000-75,000 UNOFFICIAL.” We called the agency, which confirmed those numbers.

Later that afternoon, Matt Kibbe, the President of Freedom Works, took the stage and declared that ABC News was reporting that between one and 1.5 million people were on the Mall. By any standard, millions would be impossible to confuse with tens of thousands. Remember that officials estimate 1.8 million attended President Barack Obama’s inauguration on January 20th, and there was barely any room to stand. I walked the length of Pennsylvania Avenue the marchers, and was able to move easily through the crowd. Though it would be obvious to anyone on the Mall at that time that there was no way there were a million people there, with Kibbe’s announcement, the Internet lit up. Blogs and tweets began citing the number, inflating it to as many as two million.

We at ABC News were baffled. Where were these numbers coming from? We checked with all reporters on the ground, and with all platforms (broadcast, radio, dot.com) but everyone had been sticking to reporting in the “tens of thousands.” We contacted Freedom Works, which took nearly 24 hours to correct their mistake, but did so in this statement, from Kibbe himself:

“From the stage I cited ABC news estimating the crowd at the March on Washington at 1.5 million. I also said “with all due respect to our friends in mainstream media, we need our own independent head count. Trust but verify.” With a dead IPhone, I had been shown tweets from a number of different folks behind the stage citing the ABC estimate. They didn’t say it. I regret misrepresenting the network, as their coverage that day was fair and honest.”

In the same statement, Kibbe writes, “The crowd was HUGE. Any reporter that claims thousands, or even tens of thousands of attendees was either not there or was willfully misreporting the significance of the event.”

By focusing so much on the numbers, I think he’s right, many are missing the significance of the event. On Sunday morning, ABC’s chief political correspondent, George Stephanopoulos said, “You can’t sneeze at tens of thousands of people coming out on a Saturday afternoon to March on the Capitol. That is significant. Even if it represents a minority, it can show a strongly motivated minority.”

See our report from Sunday’s Good Morning America below.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 11:56 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
http://www.zombietime.com/us_out_of_iraq_now_sf_3-18-2007/IMG_2416.JPG

http://www.zombietime.com/sf_anti-war_rally_oct_27_2007/passive-aggressive_syndrome/IMG_9676.JPG

http://www.zombietime.com/us_out_of_iraq_now_sf_3-18-2007/IMG_2393.JPG

That guy really gets around.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 12:01 pm
@old europe,
Perhaps it is as dishonest to underestimate the numbers than it is to over estimate them?

Here is the American Independent Party website who provided a good workup of the event. Compare the pictures and signs carried by the taxpayer protesters compared to those that I posted of the liberal left. Then tell me who is the most hateful. And who is more likely to exaggerate?

http://aipnews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=7860&posts=174

And here is Reason's take on it which puts it somewhere between the high end estimates and the ridiculously low ABC estimate:

http://www.reason.com/blog/printer/136073.html

A video Reason put together interviewing people in Washington:
http://reason.com/blog/show/136059.html
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 12:02 pm
@joefromchicago,
Yes. The website where I found many of those pictures noted that he had brought a number of signs and was photographed with most of them.

Would you say though that the tea partiers and taxpayers marching on Washington are more hateful that those protesting the previous administration?
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 12:05 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:


Here is the American Independent Party website who provided a good workup of the event. Compare the pictures and signs carried by the taxpayer protesters compared to those that I posted of the liberal left. Then tell me who is the most hateful. And who is more likely to exaggerate?


Considering that your post was full of pictures specifically culled from several events, to show the worst possible sentiment at those events, would you like us to do the same thing with the Tea Parties? You know we can.

It seems that you are the one exaggerating on this issue.

As for the crowd number issue,

Quote:

And here is Reason's take on it which puts it somewhere between the high end estimates and the ridiculously low ABC estimate:

http://www.reason.com/blog/printer/136073.html


I agree that this is a reasonable estimate. However, you stated 'million-person march.' That's at least 4 times larger than a LARGE estimate. Why would you repeat something that isn't true?

Cycloptichorn
JTT
 
  4  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 12:09 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Why would you repeat something that isn't true?


She's a MAC.
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 12:17 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Perhaps it is as dishonest to underestimate the numbers than it is to over estimate them?


I'm sure the DC Fire Department would be interested in your opinion.

Oh, look! Even Michelle Malkin has updated her website:

Quote:
Celebrating the 9/12 rallies; Turnout estimated at 2 million; Update: How many?; FreedomWorks in error


And she is even linking to this schematic of the national mall used for the inauguration to estimate crowd sizes:

http://imgur.com/LFQAi.png

Now, how about taking a look at the pictures that FreedomWorks kindly provided with claims about crowd sizes of 1 to 1.5 million:
http://imgur.com/Vccc3.jpg

And a closer look:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2633/3914299074_28fdec29a2_b.jpg

Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 12:29 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

I'm sure the DC Fire Department would be interested in your opinion.


And the U.S. Capitol Police. As well as the U.S. Park Police.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 12:33 pm
@old europe,
Now please post the time that photo was taken.....the one you seem to feel is so incriminating. And reconcile what you see in it with other long shot photos of the event.

And I don't care if the crowd was 70,000 or 100,000 or 700,000 or a million frankly., I do believe the numbers are far larger than the leftwing media wants to portray them. I can easily believe the numbers are far fewer than the most generous estimates. Whatever the numbers, the event was remarkable, and had it been anything other than Americans demanding their constitutional rights and expressing conservative views, it would have been touted by the leftwing media as of monumental significance.

And people like you wouldn't be trying so hard to diminish it.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 12:38 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I've seen estimates as high as 2 million, most think it was at least a million, but I could live with 700,000.


So you think that those 2 millions 700,000 were all MACS, like you interpret the term?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 12:41 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

So you think that those 2 millions were all MACS, like you interpret the term?


I didn't say there were 2 million.

But yes, I think all those who attended that event were expressing mostly MAC views. Whether they would describe themselves as MACs are for them to say.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 01:07 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Now please post the time that photo was taken.....the one you seem to feel is so incriminating. And reconcile what you see in it with other long shot photos of the event.

And I don't care if the crowd was 70,000 or 100,000 or 700,000 or a million frankly., I do believe the numbers are far larger than the leftwing media wants to portray them. I can easily believe the numbers are far fewer than the most generous estimates. Whatever the numbers, the event was remarkable, and had it been anything other than Americans demanding their constitutional rights and expressing conservative views, it would have been touted by the leftwing media as of monumental significance.

And people like you wouldn't be trying so hard to diminish it.


Sometimes, I forget that you guys are basically infants when it comes to the art of protesting.

The point is, 70-100 thousand people is not remarkable. The Dems regularly turn out far, far more than that for events, and not only does the media mostly ignore these events, they lead to extremely little change in the way of policy. You should expect similar results. Unless you can manage to draw a larger crowd than these piddling little ones, nothing is going to change based on protesting - take it from the side who has done a lot of it...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  4  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 01:11 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Yes. The website where I found many of those pictures noted that he had brought a number of signs and was photographed with most of them.

I just don't think it's fair to count those as three hateful signs, since they all spring from the same fount of crazy.

Foxfyre wrote:
Would you say though that the tea partiers and taxpayers marching on Washington are more hateful that those protesting the previous administration?

I'm not really interested in getting into a "your type of hate is worse than my type of hate" kind of argument. That sort of thing leads us into fine distinctions that are not worth making. In any event, I thought many of the signs displayed at the recent Teabaggers' event were kinda' funny, albeit in a delusional sort of way.

In any sort of large group, there are going to be people who occupy the extreme ends of the bell-curve distribution. There are left-wing crazies at every liberal rally and right-wing crazies at every conservative one. Moreover, many of the crazies of both political persuasions are, for some inexplicable reason, not shy about waving their particular brand of crazy in front of people with cameras. About the only difference is that I rarely see liberals from the middle of the bell curve actually endorse the warped viewpoints espoused by the crazies on the curve's left end.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 01:20 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Now please post the time that photo was taken.....the one you seem to feel is so incriminating.


I don't know when it was taken. Brendan Steinhauser posted the photos on the FreedomWorks blog.

Quote:
Brendan is the Director of Federal and State Campaigns for FreedomWorks. He is the author of The Conservative Revolution: How to Win the Battle for College Campuses.

Are you suggesting that he posted photos that purposefully made the number of protesters look smaller?

Foxfyre wrote:
And reconcile what you see in it with other long shot photos of the event.

Other long shot photos like, for example....?

Foxfyre wrote:
And I don't care if the crowd was 70,000 or 100,000 or 700,000 or a million frankly.

I'm sure that's how you feel. I'm sure that explains this sentence:

Foxfyre wrote:
And people like you wouldn't be trying so hard to diminish it.



cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 01:38 pm
@old europe,
What else can they do after they have tried to imply that the number in the crowd were in the millions? LOL Busted again!
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 02:20 pm
I think it unlikely that there were as many as 2 million Tea Party attendees in DC on Sept. 12th. My guess would be no more than 500 thousand. But that is not a small number!

Just for the fun of it, suppose we collected two-million people in a field. How big would the field have to be? Assume each person occupies 2.5 square feet. The size of the filed would have to be 2,000,000 x 2.5 = 5,000,000 square feet.

A football field is 150 feet wide. What if the field were actually only as wide as a football field? How many miles long would it have to be? (5,000,000 / 150) / 5280 = 6.31 miles long for 2 million people, or about 1.6 miles long for 500 thousand people.

Make your own guess!




Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 02:23 pm
Who are the undeserving "others" benefiting from expanded government actions?

Glenn Greenwald

EXCERPT:

. . . the right-wing fury over health care reform is motivated by the fear that middle-class Americans will have their money taken away by Obama while -- all together now, euphemistically -- "having someone else benefit." And this "someone else" are, as always, the poor minorities and other undeserving deadbeats who, in right-wing lore, somehow (despite their sorry state) exert immensely powerful influence over the U.S. Government and are thus the beneficiaries of endless, undeserved largesse: people too lazy to work, illegal immigrants, those living below the poverty line. That's why Joe Wilson's outburst resonated so forcefully among the Right and why he became an immediate folk hero: he was voicing the core right-wing fear that their money was being stolen from them by Obama in order to lavish the Undeserving and the Others -- in this case illegal immigrants -- with ill-gotten gains ("having someone else benefit," as Douthat/Luntz put it).

* * * * *

This is the paradox of the tea-party movement and other right-wing protests fueled by genuine citizen anger and fear. It is true that the federal government embraces redistributive policies and that middle-class income is seized in order that "someone else benefits." But so obviously, that "someone else" who is benefiting is not the poor and lower classes -- who continue to get poorer as the numbers living below the poverty line expand and the rich-poor gap grows in the U.S. to unprecedented proportions. The "someone else" that is benefiting from Washington policies are -- as usual -- the super-rich, the tiny number of huge corporations which literally own and control the Government. The premise of these citizen protests is not wrong: Washington politicians are in thrall to special interests and are, in essence, corruptly stealing the country's economic security in order to provide increasing benefits to a small and undeserving minority. But the "minority" here isn't what Fox News means by that term, but is the tiny sliver of corporate power which literally writes our laws and, in every case, ends up benefiting.

It wasn't the poor or illegal immigrants who were the beneficiaries of the Wall St. bailout; it was the investment banks which, not even a year later, are wallowing in record profits and bonuses thanks to massive taxpayer-funded welfare. The endlessly expanding (and secret) balance sheet of the Federal Reserve isn't going to fund midnight basketball programs or health care for Mexican immigrants but is enabling extreme profiteering by the very people who, just a year ago, almost brought the global economic system to full-scale collapse. Our endless wars and always-expanding Surveillance State -- fueled by constant fear-mongering campaigns against the Latest Scary Enemy -- keep the National Security corporations drowning in profits, paid for by middle-class taxes. And even health-care reform -- which supposedly began with anger over extreme insurance company profiteering at the expense of people's health -- will be an enormous boon to that same industry, as tens of millions of people are forced by the Government to become their customers with the central mechanism to control costs (the public option) blocked by that same industry. That's why those industries are enthusiastically in favor of reform: because, as always, they will benefit massively from it.

This is what is so strange and remarkable about these tea-party protests. The people who win when government acts aren't the poor, minorities or illegal immigrants -- the prime targets of these protesters' resentment. Their plight only worsens by the day. In Washington, members of those groups are even more powerless than "middle-income Americans." That's so obvious. The people who win whenever the federal government expands its power are the ones who, through their massive resources and lobbyists armies, control what the government does: the richest and most powerful corporations. And yet -- in an extreme paradox -- those are the people who are venerated by the Right: they simultaneously spew rage at what's happening in Washington while revering and defending the interests of the oligarchs who are most responsible.

What's really happening with these protests is that the genuine rage and not unreasonable economic insecurity of these citizens is being stoked, exploited, distorted and manipulated by movement leaders for entirely different ends. The people who are leading them -- Rush Limbaugh, the Murdoch-owned Fox News, Glenn Beck, business-dominated organizations of the type led by Dick Armey -- are cultural warriors above everything else. They're all in a far different socioeconomic position than the "middle-income Americans" whose anger they're ostensibly representing. Their principal preoccupation is their cultural contempt for various groups (illegal immigrants, the "undeserving" poor, liberals) and their desire to preserve the status quo whereby the prime beneficiaries of government policies remain themselves: the super rich and the interests that control Washington. It's certainly true that many of these protesters are driven by the standard right-wing cultural issues which have long shaped that movement -- social issues, religious fears, cultural and racial divisions, and hatred for "liberals" as Communist-Muslim-Terrorist-lovers. For many, all of that is intensified by the humiliation of being completely thrown out of power, at the hands of the first black President. But much of it is fueled by the pillaging of the corporations and Wall St. interests which own their government.

That's what accounts for the gaping paradox of these protests movements: genuine anger (over the core corruption of Washington and the eroding economic security for virtually everyone other than a tiny minority) is being bizarrely directed at those who never benefit (the poorest and most downtrodden), while those who are most responsible (the wealthiest and largest corporations) are depicted as the victims who need defending . . . .
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 02:30 pm
If Obama and his supporters believe what they say is true, they are simpletons. They have chosen to solve the problems created by Bush’s excessive spending and lending to rescue the USA’s economy, by INCREASING instead of decreasing Bush's excessive spending and lending to rescue the economy.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 02:40 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Assume each person occupies 2.5 square feet.


Let's assume ican doesn't have any idea of how close people would have to be to be one person per 2.5 sq foot.

Based on the pictures I saw ican, I doubt there was one person per 10 sq feet on the mall. Probably not even one per 25 sq feet.

 

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