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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 09:08 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
That was one of the pre-requisites for my choice of company, they cannot drop my policy. I belong to a group policy that prohibits that.

Buyers of services must compare and choose, and the market should allow for that. I would not rule out some kind of reform however that encourages companies to not drop their customers unless there was some kind of fraud involved.


Why not simply make it a regulation? I have yet to hear a compelling reason for why an insurance company should be allowed to drop you once you actually need the insurance. Why is that a good policy? Why should companies be allowed to sell a faulty product like that?

There are laws in place that prohibit companies from selling you tainted food. You don't have to check every time, just in case your milk is tainted with melamine. Because that would be unreasonable. Outlawing it leads to an acceptable, non-intrusive form of consumer-protection.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 09:10 pm
@okie,
Because we can't afford to pay for the needs of those currently getting public (Medicaid, Medicare, VA) services with an aging population, increasing life expectancies, on a reduced work force. We simply can't afford it.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 09:14 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Currently, the annual pay of federal employees is on the average three times the annual pay of private employees.

What are the annual salaries of Obama's czars?



Quote:
Overall, the average salary"base pay plus locality pay"for full-time federal employees as of March 2004 was $60,517, according to a new Office of Personnel Management report.
http://www.federaldaily.com/federaldaily/archive/2005/05/FD051105.htm

I doubt the average salary for private employees in 2004 was $20,000.

I also doubt that the average salary of federal employees has tripled since 2004.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 09:15 pm
@parados,
Count the benefits.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 09:17 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Count the benefits.

benefits are pay for federal employees but not pay for private employees?

Don't be stupid okie...

wait..
Don't continue being stupid okie.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 09:19 pm
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:

because your system is broken.

unsustainable.

Not broken. Thats a myth. It has problems that need fixing, but it isn't broken and I am tired of hearing Obama repeat that every time he opens his mouth.

unsustainable? So is Social Security as it is now. So is Medicare. So is alot of things the government does. So is life as well. We will all die.
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 09:21 pm
@okie,
"unsustainable? So is Social Security as it is now. So is Medicare. So is alot of things the government does. So is life as well. We will all die."

I agree.

but fail to see the humour in it that you seem to.

some of us will not die as comfortably as you who scoff.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 09:22 pm
@okie,
Which is why I truly fail to understand why we spend so much money on end-of-life care trying to prevent the inevitable. Hospice for everyone!
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 01:10 am
@mysteryman,
Yes, but what I just wanted to say is that I could go today to any doctor, hospital etc within the EU and some couple more countries - not only here - without anything else than my 'European Health Insurance Card'.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 01:15 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Which is why I truly fail to understand why we spend so much money on end-of-life care trying to prevent the inevitable. Hospice for everyone!


For those who have a living will, futile end-of-life heroics will not be implemented. I encourage all who do not want their life prolonged after there is no quality of life left to make such a will that will ensure your loved ones will keep you as comfortable as possible but let you go peacefully.

Such decision should always be the prerogative of the person, however, and should never be the prerogative of the state. Let's leave the choice of whether to fight to live or give up and die to the person and not hand that power to the state to decide. If we value and sanctify life, the right to die should never be extrapolated into a duty to die.
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 01:26 am
Fox says: " Let's leave the choice of whether to fight to live or give up and die to the person and not hand that power to the state."

Interesting point, fox. So you think that all the conservative congressmen and our ex-president, who huffed and puffed about Terry Schiavo were com pletely out of line and shouldn't have been trying to impose their will on others? I guess that's what conservatives do, isn't it? Try to use the power of the state to restrict people's choice.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 01:29 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Yes, but what I just wanted to say is that I could go today to any doctor, hospital etc within the EU and some couple more countries - not only here - without anything else than my 'European Health Insurance Card'.

Embarrassed It costs me extra $12 per year for outside Europe- and Mediterranean Sea countries countries, for all including in my insurance (in my case just my wife).
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 06:56 am
@Foxfyre,
Ok -- I agree that we shouldn't force people to feel compelled to die for the sake of a public dollar. OTOH, I do think anyone admitted to the hospital with public HC (including Medicare, Medicaid, and VA) should be forced to create a living will if they don't already have one and anyone admitted without the ability to create such a living will should have those decisions made for them via best practices. In other words, make it in everyone's best interest to have a living will if they're being treated with public funds.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 09:02 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

Fox says: " Let's leave the choice of whether to fight to live or give up and die to the person and not hand that power to the state."

Interesting point, fox. So you think that all the conservative congressmen and our ex-president, who huffed and puffed about Terry Schiavo were com pletely out of line and shouldn't have been trying to impose their will on others? I guess that's what conservatives do, isn't it? Try to use the power of the state to restrict people's choice.


In Terry Schiavo's case, the choice was being made for her. She was not the one who chose to die. To force her to die to make way for hubby's new honey when Terry was in no pain, was not suffering, and there were people willing to love and care for her and pay for her care and who believed she wanted to live made that a most unusual case. The state, in my opinion, had no right to order her to die. Hubby should have divorced her and left her in peace with those who loved her.

To JPB, the difference between me, a conservative, and a liberal on this issue, is that I do not want the government to have the power to force me to do anything I do not wish to do, much less choose whether I live or die, so long as I do not violate the rights of others. If I choose to die, and I have ability to choose that, it should be my choice. If I choose to fight to live, and I have ability to choose that, it should be my choice. If I want a living will I want the right to have one. If I don't want to make a living will, I do not want the government to require me to do so.

A liberal wants to force me to do what the liberal thinks is right, so whether you are or are ot mostly a liberal, your suggestion that the state should force me to do what you think is right in a matter that should affect only me and my loved ones. is a liberal concept. I believe it is a moral choice to have a living will, but it must be my choice. Not yours. And not the government's.

I do believe that a moral society takes care of the truly helpless who were and are unable to help themselves, and charity provided to relieve the suffering of others is a noble thing. But so long as I had ability to make choices, I don't want the government to have the power to make you responsible for the choices I made. Except in very narrowly defined cases restricted to the truly helpless, I do not want the government to dispense charity of any kind because there is no way for it to do that without it being a corrupting influence on both those in government and the beneficiaries.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 09:25 am
The little bounce President Obama got in his address to Congress didn't last long it seems:

Quote:
Health Care Reform
Opposition to Health Care Reform Reaches New High at 55%
Tuesday, September 15, 2009

One week after President Obama’s speech to Congress, opposition to his health care reform plan has reached a new high of 55%. The latest Rasmussen Reports daily tracking poll shows that just 42% now support the plan, matching the low first reached in August.

A week ago, 44% supported the proposal and 53% were opposed. Following the speech last Wednesday night intended to relaunch the health care initiative, support for the president’s effort bounced as high as 51% (see day-by-day numbers). But the new numbers suggest that support for health care reform is now about the same as it was in August.

Seventy-four percent (74%) of Democrats now support the plan while 80% of Republicans are opposed. Among those not affiliated with either major party, 67% are opposed.

The latest figures show that, overall, 23% Strongly Favor the plan and 44% are Strongly Opposed. In late August, those figures were 23% and 43% respectively.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 09:58 am
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:

some of us will not die as comfortably as you who scoff.

To me, liberty makes me more comfortable, even in death I believe that will be the case. I can't speak for everyone however.
Rockhead
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 10:01 am
@okie,
stick your head back in the sand, okie.

i'll let you know when it's over...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 10:03 am
@Rockhead,
Better be careful, Rockhead, okie will put you on Ignore. LOL
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 10:32 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
To JPB, the difference between me, a conservative, and a liberal on this issue, is that I do not want the government to have the power to force me to do anything I do not wish to do, much less choose whether I live or die, so long as I do not violate the rights of others. If I choose to die, and I have ability to choose that, it should be my choice. If I choose to fight to live, and I have ability to choose that, it should be my choice. If I want a living will I want the right to have one. If I don't want to make a living will, I do not want the government to require me to do so.

A liberal wants to force me to do what the liberal thinks is right, so whether you are or are ot mostly a liberal, your suggestion that the state should force me to do what you think is right in a matter that should affect only me and my loved ones. is a liberal concept. I believe it is a moral choice to have a living will, but it must be my choice. Not yours. And not the government's.


Then don't accept public HC dollars for your medical interventions. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth, fox. You accept Medicare dollars which are public funds and then say the public has no right to tell you how those funds should be spent towards your care. I invite you to live for as long as you choose on your own dime, or even on the public dime so long as you've stated in writing your end-of-life care wishes -- even if those wishes are to be plugged in and never unplugged. Put them in writing so those providing you care know that you've given it some thought and don't have to assume that you want to be kept alive as long as technology permits it.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Sep, 2009 10:41 am
http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq289/LindaBee_2008/th_TEAPARTY.jpg

Don Devine identifies the disease that most of the MACs have already identified on this thread, and pulls it together in this issue. Modern American Conservatism is not personified in a 'messiah-like' leader nor is it emulated in a political party. It is a way of looking at our country, our social contract, our world and knowing that the cumulative wisdom of the un-brainwashed is generally far superior to those who have become fat, complacent, and arrogant in their positions of leadership.

Liberals look to people they can condemn, scorn ideas and concepts, embrace servitude to a faceless and ambiguous government god. The recent million plus member march on Washington, the tea parties, talk radio, the assorted commentaries emulate a growing swell of freedom-loving conviction that the Founders were right after all and the great experiment that is the United States will survive and excel if we can return government to something much closer to its Constitutionally mandated role.

http://acuf.org/images/photos/marchondc3.jpg

Subtitles mine

Quote:
Conservatism's Regeneration
by Donald Devine
September 16, 2009

The health care town meetings this past summer awakened the Phoenix " the mythical bird, not the city " of conservatism to rise alive again from the ashes of the dilapidated body of the moribund conservative movement. The giant rally at the Capitol on Saturday culminated the largest outpouring of freedom activism in decades, perhaps ever.

Everyone outside the Washington D.C. beltway knows the institutional conservative movement had become comatose. It still had the glitter and the funds but it had long since lost passion and a motivating mission. That is changing. George W. Bush had issued the coup de grace when he broke all records for government spending, not on foreign policy but racking up the largest spending on domestic programs of any preceding American president.

President Bush was not a MAC

The modern conservative movement stood for many things but a central one was the idea of limited government. President Bush disagreed, famously preaching “when someone hurts, government must act.” The problem was that when the president proceeded to turn his philosophy into action through new federal controls of education, prescription drugs, energy, housing, banking, investment, autos and the rest, the institutional conservative movement generally supported him " or at least muted opposition, undermining its credibility. Conservatism’s grass roots, its believing activist base, became discouraged and disengaged.

Republican leaders also abdicated conservative principles

Nearly every Republican leader was implicated in this abnegation of principle so there was no place to turn for help. As Chip Hanlon of California’s Red County blog reports below, when he interviewed a prominent Republican Congressional leader recently he was told “ You may be concerned with what you perceive to be our 'failings' on spending, but it was Iraq, and Iraq alone, which put us into the minority." He cited the polls as proof that “if you take away the Iraq War, which was funded by debt, we did a pretty good job on spending.” Notice, this “leader” does not even know he presided over the largest domestic spending spree ever! How clueless can one get in the midst of a popular revolt against excessive government spending? There is no hope from such a party under such leadership.

Grass roots conservatives do not agree with Congressional leaders

Fortunately for the GOP, President Barack Obama is even more obtuse, deciding to take the Bush spending and ratchet it up exponentially, especially on health care. While the Republican leadership in Congress, the party, business and even some of the rightist intellectual community is lusting for a deal on health care, the grass roots want none of it. When Congress adjourned for August and announced it wanted to hear from the public, it heard much more than it wanted. Grass roots conservatives turned out in droves and they were joined by many moderates and even liberals. Folks did not like what they were hearing from their leaders, both Republican and Democratic, that it was government control of medicine, like it or not.

While some of the conservative national groups, especially Freedom Works, Campaign for Liberty, and Americans for Prosperity, tried to organize grass roots participation, the ordinary folks were way ahead of them. Your author happened to be the chairman of the coalition of conservative organizations against HillaryCare in 1993 and we did organize 40 or so regional town hall meetings in opposition. But there is no comparison. This year was not organized top down but bottom up. It is more like grass roots opposition to catastrophic health reform in 1965 when activists took off on their own, including physically assaulting the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, actually leading to the repeal of the bill passed overwhelmingly by both houses of Congress the preceding year.

The grass roots and the Administration lie

What was different this time was the pent-up frustration on the right with the Bush program plus the fact that Rep. Ron Paul had attracted a core of young people on a platform of limited, constitutional government that provided a catalyst for the activist base. The Paul supporters had had incredible success with on-line spontaneous fundraising (more than Obama at one point) and with mass meetings and forums - not “knowing” mass politics was dead. So they were willing to try - and succeeded, in small groups and individually through email, Twitter and the like. The American Conservative Union was wise enough to know these folks did not want to be led so decided merely to record it, publicize it and give support to it.

To argue, as has the White House, this was organized surreptitiously by the drug or insurance or the medical companies is delusional. In fact, the White House had lured them into their deliberations and they mostly supported the Obama plan. The idea that the government would force everyone to be insured would be a boon for their balance sheets (at least in the short run) and they even lobbied Congress to obtain this new business. Likewise, in 2004, these companies were the ones responsible for running ads in Republican districts where the Congressman was opposed to the prescription drug bill, scaring them into support. This time they played even worse hardball. Medicines Company and another drug firm, Sinofi Pasteur, forced their lobbyist DLA Piper to push former House majority leader Dick Armey from his job at that firm because he was also the chairman of Freedom Works, which was working to defeat the Obama bill.

The debate within conservatism

No, the summer tea party revolution was not from the top. Institutional conservatism was just too compromised after Bush to rouse by itself this new mass of Americans concerned about what government will do to ruin their valued health and political systems. The intellectual case that government intervention is the root cause of the health crisis and that it will produce bankruptcy in the years ahead had not been made by any major political figure in years. Indeed, many conservatives have taken the position that the government health system is sacrosanct and should not be changed at all in order to rouse elderly opposition, ignoring the stacks of rightist think tank reports detailing the urgent need to put patients in charge rather than bureaucrats as the only way to prevent bankruptcy and rationed health care.

Conservatism post-Bush has been opportunistic rather than principled. If the GOP took control of Congress tomorrow, as indicated by a recent op-ed by the party chairman Michael Steele and what the Republican Congressional leader reinforced in California, there is no question it would support some compromise solution that would make the health care system more inefficient, more unfair and more expensive, further hastening insolvency.

The good news is that a critical mass at the grass roots is seeing through the bipartisan tomfoolery and will not take it any longer. Beyond the sloganeering Congressional speeches, the formulistic think tank studies and the hot air TV expert commentary, an exhausted conservative movement is being regenerated by activists who really care about political principles and are determined to do something serious to advance them. Conservatism’s regeneration is happening just as it did in the 1960s, out in the country, spontaneously, below the establishment radar, awaiting a leader and a favorable opportunity.

Donald Devine, the editor of Conservative Battleline Online, was the director of the U.S. Office of Personnel Management from 1981 to 1985 and is the director of the Federalist Leadership Center at Bellevue University.
http://acuf.org/issues/issue139/090910news.asp
 

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