AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

@ican711nm,

ican711nm wrote:

The fact is a single payer system is in the current Baucus House Bill. Obama is a fool and/or a fraud!

No, it isn't. There are two house bills that have no support that could be construed to bring about single payer. One is HR 676 which would expand Medicare to anyone who wanted it. Another would allow states to institute single payer systems. Neither of those are going anywhere and neither have anything to do with Baucus (as Cyclo pointed out, he's a senator) or Obama's plan.

Quote:

Aha! You think it best to replace private medical insurance profits with government medical insurance frauds and/or stupidities. Obama's Government frauds and/or stupidities have already been shown to far exceed private profits by trillions of dollars.

Aha! You like to make things up and assert them as fact!

0 Replies

@Foxfyre,

I think you should make an A2K poll Foxie.

Really.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

Insurance coverage is not the samething as percentage of medical charges paid by that coverage. Medicare and Medicaid are paying a decreasing percentage of individual medical charges.

I don't believe you have a single piece of evidence to support this contention.

Cycloptichorn

He only has common sense to support that contention.

If my insurance policy says that insurance will pay $20 for X procedure, and the cost of that procedure is $50, then the insurance coverage bears no relationship to medical charges.

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

ican711nm wrote:

Foxfyre, your response to okie defining and explaining the meaning of MAC is outstanding. Please save it in your computer file for future use. I assume you approve of me also doing exactly that.

Thank you. If there was no other factor commending modern conservatism, the fact that conservatives can actually grasp concepts in a way that most liberals seem unable to do is a huge plus for conservatism. Smile

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

Insurance coverage is not the samething as percentage of medical charges paid by that coverage. Medicare and Medicaid are paying a decreasing percentage of individual medical charges.

I don't believe you have a single piece of evidence to support this contention.

Cycloptichorn

He only has common sense to support that contention.

If my insurance policy says that insurance will pay $20 for X procedure, and the cost of that procedure is $50, then the insurance coverage bears no relationship to medical charges.

Right; and both private insurance and Medicare/aid do exactly that. This data point does not address the contention.

I also specifically and directly question your assertion that Ican has 'common sense,' in the slightest. He lies and exaggerates and makes us 'facts' willy-nilly. Once again, the record does not support your contention.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Maybe you find it surprising, but most of us think that modern conservatism is reflected in the people you actually elect to be your leaders. It gives the lie when you cannot point out any national politicians who you think accurately represent your positions.

So, yes - to most Americans, Bush, Cheney, Boehner and Blunt are the fact of modern Conservatism. And why wouldn't people think that?

Cycloptichorn

Which of our leaders do or do not represent the definition or even how they describe themselves is an entirely different subject.

Probably the numbnuts and the thoroughly ideologically brainwashed are incapable of getting their mind around such concepts, but those who can still think criticially can look at a definition for what it is and either agree with it or disagree with it.

Can you do that? Can you focus on the definition itself and discern whether the definition is or is not accurate on its own merits and apart from anything else?

No! Because your silly 'definition' is meaningless, it is immaterial. There are no outcomes from your definition, no results.

Think of it this way: we cannot know the inner thoughts and minds of others. We can only judge people by their words and actions. So, while you may think that you are a certain thing, or that Conservatives in America think a certain way, or should have certain morals and ideals reflected in the leaders they elect, the truth is that their actions give the lie to your contention.

If 'MACs' feel the way that you say they do, how come you can't name a single member of your leadership who reflects this? I mean, not even one. I can name many members of the Dem leadership who reflect modern Liberalism, not the least being Obama himself. How do you account for the fact that the reality of modern American Conservatism is so diametrically opposed to your conception of it?

Your repeated use of the word 'numbnuts' is an admission up front that your argument is weak, and that you are a weak debater. You ought to be able to discuss concepts which differ slightly from the one you WISH to discuss, without resorting to name-calling and invective.

Cyclotpichorn

0 Replies

@ican711nm,

Quote:

Obama said to Congress that a single-payer medical insurance plan is not now part of his plan. Not now? But that is not the same thing as: Not ever!

Good catch, and an extremely important one. Saying that it is 'not now part of the plan' is no different from saying that 'it will be added later' especially when it was a part of his original plan and is supported by most of the Democratic leaders.

Now, if he had said "I now appreciate that a single-payer medical insurance plan is not in the interest of the American people, I will not support any plan that includes that concept or allows that concept in the future and will veto any plan offered that includes that concept now or would allow it in the future"--if he had said that, you would be seeing every conservative (MAC) and moderate in this country standing up and applauding and praising him.

2 Replies

@Foxfyre,

Foxie, That's very funny! Conservatives still believe that Obama is not an American, and also believe in "death panels." The only plus for conservatism now is the No Party, and great imagination at fear-mongering.

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@Rockhead,

Rockhead wrote:

I think you should make an A2K poll Foxie.

Really.

About what? What should be included on the poll if Robert gives us that capability back?

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

ican711nm wrote:

Aha! You think it best to replace private medical insurance profits with government medical insurance frauds and/or stupidities. Obama's Government frauds and/or stupidities have already been shown to far exceed private profits by trillions of dollars.

I enjoyed this so much I had to post it again. That "aha" is just fantastic. It's like you've been hunting phantom single payer advocates and you finally found one hiding behind a tree.

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

Insurance coverage is not the samething as percentage of medical charges paid by that coverage. Medicare and Medicaid are paying a decreasing percentage of individual medical charges.

I don't believe you have a single piece of evidence to support this contention.

Cycloptichorn

He only has common sense to support that contention.

If my insurance policy says that insurance will pay $20 for X procedure, and the cost of that procedure is $50, then the insurance coverage bears no relationship to medical charges.

Right; and both private insurance and Medicare/aid do exactly that. This data point does not address the contention.

I also specifically and directly question your assertion that Ican has 'common sense,' in the slightest. He lies and exaggerates and makes us 'facts' willy-nilly. Once again, the record does not support your contention.

Cycloptichorn

Noting that as all numbnuts and extreme leftists do, you still remain unable to focus on an idea or concept but think insulting people is valid debate. . . . .

You are right. Both Medicare and Medicare offer coverage that bears no resemblance to the actual medical costs. So in saying that, you are 100% agreeing with Ican. But kudos to you for that. That's real progress. Actually admitting that you agree with Ican.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

foxie, you play dumb better'n anyone I know.

(you are playing, aren't you?)

1 Reply

@Rockhead,

Rockhead wrote:

foxie, you play dumb better'n anyone I know.

(you are playing, aren't you?)

Nope. Since I am discussing three or four different concepts here, I have no clue what you think I need to conduct a poll about unless you clarify that.

By the way. Many of the numbnuts and extreme leftists here give the impression that they are dumb as rocks as not a single one seems able to articulate or analyze a relatively simple definition and seem terrified or highly offended if somebody uses one. Even one out of a dictionary.

Can you articulate a definition for what you think a modern American conservative is? What a modern American liberal is?

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Quote:

Noting that as all numbnuts and extreme leftists do, you still remain unable to focus on an idea or concept but think insulting people is valid debate. . . . .

My first line directly addressed the contention. And if you are going to continue to call people 'numbnuts,' I'm going to assume that you have abandoned any pretense of civil discussion and start refering to you as a ******* idiot, Fox. Every single post, I'll start off by saying, 'well, as usual, ******* idiots like you can't understand simple concepts.' Do you think you would enjoy that, or that it would lead to reasonable discussion? I can do it, if you would like.

Quote:

You are right. Both Medicare and Medicare offer coverage that bears no resemblance to the actual medical costs. So in saying that, you are 100% agreeing with Ican. But kudos to you for that. That's real progress. Actually admitting that you agree with Ican.

Perhaps you should re-read or edit this sentence? Yeah, I think you should. You are apparently somewhat confused on the topic which is being discussed, but what more should I expect from a ******* idiot?

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Foxfyre,

or maybe you could slow down and just do one thing well, instead of 3 or 4 not so well.

I will let you get back to what you find most important.

She added:
"Can you articulate a definition for what you think a modern American conservative is? What a modern American liberal is? "

I have a couple of fine dictionaries, and I don't often do vocabulary contests, but we can if you wish...

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

So now you are backing off what you said? You are saying that Medicare and Medicaid actually do represent the actual costs of providing healthcare?

Well, if that's what you're saying, that belief sure doesn't make Ican or me the 'f*cking idiot'.

1 Reply

@Rockhead,

Rockhead wrote:

or maybe you could slow down and just do one thing well, instead of 3 or 4 not so well.

I will let you get back to what you find most important.

I would love to. But I don't get to dictate the subject and different people are talking about different things.

So what do you want a poll about?

0 Replies

@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

So now you are backing off what you said? You are saying that Medicare and Medicaid actually do represent the actual costs of providing healthcare?

Well, if that's what you're saying, that belief sure doesn't make Ican or me the 'f*cking idiot'.

That's what I said? Perhaps you can link to where I said that.

My contention has been that an increasing share of American medical costs are being paid for by government-sponsored insurance, and not by private insurance. I provided facts to support that in the form of a sourced chart. You and Ican have provided nothing, and you seem somewhat confused as to what is being discussed; additionally, the data point you raised above (that insurers negotiate how much they will pay) is not material to the conversation, as both government-sponsored and private insurers do this.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Good catch, and an extremely important one. Saying that it is 'not now part of the plan' is no different from saying that 'it will be added later' especially when it was a part of his original plan and is supported by most of the Democratic leaders.

What "original plan" are you claiming it was a part of? It wasn't part of his campaign proposal and hasn't been part of anything mentioned by him since.

Quote:

Now, if he had said "I now appreciate that a single-payer medical insurance plan is not in the interest of the American people, I will not support any plan that includes that concept or allows that concept in the future and will veto any plan offered that includes that concept now or would allow it in the future"--if he had said that, you would be seeing every conservative (MAC) and moderate in this country standing up and applauding and praising him.

Yes, perhaps you would (though I doubt you would see moderates applauding). But he was elected by everyone else, a group that continues to outnumber you.

1 Reply

@FreeDuck,

Quote:

I enjoyed this so much I had to post it again. That "aha" is just fantastic. It's like you've been hunting phantom single payer advocates and you finally found one hiding behind a tree.

You dont have to look behind a tree.
All you have to do is look in the White House.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE

0 Replies

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

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