55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:07 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
You say in one breath that we haven't paid enough for our past sins and must do much more, and in the next that you don't hold your country in contempt. You seem to be unable to acknowledge, much be proud of the millions upon millions of people who live free and safe today because there is a United States of America. And you condemn the very talking heads for inflaming people but can't see that they are the voice of the people and they wouldn't have anything to bank if they were not voicing what all of their audiences are already thinking.
But you probably are like some other Leftists and would like to shut them up so that you would hear only what is comforting and pleasant to hear whether or not it is the truth. But don't delude yourself for a minute that it would change the minds of the loyal opposition.


Ok -- this one made me laugh out loud. Your "assessment" of me and my views of America is so off the mark that it's hard to know where to start. Let me just say that I'm probably more fiscally conservative than you are, always have been, always will be. I don't want the talking heads silenced -- I do believe in freedom of speech, I just wish that the voices they're supposedly representing weren't so frigging ignorant. I think the dumbing down of our education system nationally is coming home to bite us where it hurts the most -- our future. We've become globalized to the point the we shop at Walmart to save a few pennies without giving any thought to what shopping at Walmart means to the future of America. Walmart is now the second largest employer in Alaska - the State of Alaska is the highest. Do you shop at Walmart, fox? If so, you're a hypocrite.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:14 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I am an older American who was schooled in love and appreciation for what our Country was intended to be.


Foxfyre wrote:
This is why the Founders did not include charity or benevolence or relief of anykind as a responsibility of the Federal government and every President has adhered to that principle until FDR.


Then I admire you, fox, for supporting yourself in your older age without putting the burden on those coming up behind you. That is, unless, you accept Social Security monies and/or Medicare coverage - in which case you are a hypocrite.


It makes me a hypocrite to accept social security monies that I was required to pay into every single year since I was 15? Are you like most liberals and think that this isn't my money but is some kind of government generosity?

It makes me a hypocrite to be on Medicare that is essentially forced on America's senior citizens unless they are very wealthy or they forego health care altogether? And that I have also paid into and have been supporting with my taxes for the last 44 years?

Perhaps you don't realize that both programs are bleeding billions of dollars red ink and are not sustainable? So does it make me a hypocrite to think that adding another huge government entitlement program is not the way to go at this point? That there is a better way to go about it? That our only choice long term is to begin slowly but surely phasing out social security and medicare as we know it now and replace it with something sustainable?

As I said, Conservatives look at charity and benevolence as something they voluntarily provide out of their own pocket. You, a liberal, apparently look at charity and benevolence as something the government forces people to pay.

This is probably a good time to post Walter William's latest essay that addresses this subject:

Quote:
A MINORITY VIEW
BY WALTER WILLIAMS
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 2, 2009
Washington's Lies

President Obama and congressional supporters estimate that his health care plan will cost between $50 and $65 billion a year. Such cost estimates are lies whether they come from a Democratic president and Congress, or a Republican president and Congress. You say, "Williams, you don't show much trust in the White House and Congress." Let's check out their past dishonesty.

At its start, in 1966, Medicare cost $3 billion. The House Ways and Means Committee, along with President Johnson, estimated that Medicare would cost an inflation-adjusted $12 billion by 1990. In 1990, Medicare topped $107 billion. That's nine times Congress' prediction. Today's Medicare tab comes to $420 billion with no signs of leveling off. How much confidence can we have in any cost estimates by the White House or Congress?

Another part of the Medicare lie is found in Section 1801 of the 1965 Medicare Act that reads: "Nothing in this title shall be construed to authorize any federal officer or employee to exercise any supervision or control over the practice of medicine, or the manner in which medical services are provided, or over the selection, tenure, or compensation of any officer, or employee, or any institution, agency or person providing health care services." Ask your doctor or hospital whether this is true.

Lies and deception are by no means restricted to modern times. During the legislative debate prior to ratification of the 16th Amendment, President Howard Taft and congressional supporters said that only the rich would ever pay federal income taxes. In 1916, only one-half of 1 percent of income earners paid income taxes. Those earning $250,000 a year in today's dollars paid 1 percent, and those earning $6 million in today's dollars paid 7 percent. The lie that only the rich would ever pay income taxes was simply a lie to exploit the politics of envy and dupe Americans into ratifying the 16th Amendment.

The proposed tax increases that the White House and Congress are proposing will probably pass. According to the Washington, D.C.-based Tax Foundation, during 2006, roughly 43.4 million tax returns, representing 91 million individuals, had no federal tax liability. That's out of a total of 136 million federal tax returns. Adding to this figure are 15 million households and individuals who file no tax return at all. Roughly 121 million Americans -- or 41 percent of the U.S. population -- are completely outside the federal income tax system. These people represent a natural constituency for big-spending politicians. Since they have no federal income tax obligation, what do they care about higher taxes or tax cuts?

Another big congressional lie is Social Security. Here's what a 1936 government pamphlet on Social Security said: "After the first 3 years -- that is to say, beginning in 1940 -- you will pay, and your employer will pay, 1.5 cents for each dollar you earn, up to $3,000 a year ... beginning in 1943, you will pay 2 cents, and so will your employer, for every dollar you earn for the next 3 years. ... And finally, beginning in 1949, twelve years from now, you and your employer will each pay 3 cents on each dollar you earn, up to $3,000 a year." Here's Congress's lying promise: "That is the most you will ever pay." Let's repeat that last sentence: "That is the most you will ever pay." Compare that to today's reality, including Medicare, which is 7.65 cents on each dollar that you earn up to nearly $107,000, which comes to $8,185.

The Social Security pamphlet closes with another lie: "Beginning November 24, 1936, the United States government will set up a Social Security account for you ... The checks will come to you as a right." First, there's no Social Security account containing your money, but more importantly, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on two occasions that Americans have no legal right to Social Security payments.

We can thank public education for American gullibility.



JPB
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:15 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I suppose somebody so thoroughly brainwashed that Obama is indeed the messiah and the Democrats in Congress his loyal disciples and that they are as honest and trustworthy as any human can be would think that I was referring to financial impact. I wasn't. I was referring to much more basic fundamental principles such as the right and ability to voice grievances and objections and retain our other Constitutional, civil, legal, human, and unalienable rights as well. Seems to me the Left is gung ho to take that away from all of us.

And for the life of me, I cannot understand how people can become so gullible that they would not see how tragic that would be.


And, now you're really talking out of your backside. Pure hyperbole and selective reasoning, which I'm coming to realize you're very good at. Democrats? Just the Dems? Really --- do you honestly believe that the Republicans would be leading us out of this mess? If so, not only are you a hypocrite, you're delusional.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:15 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

As for sins, unlike presumably you see yourself, I have never owned slaves or condoned slavery nor, to the best of my knowledge, have I ever improperly discriminated against anybody. In fact I had opportunity to work directly to help eradicate some of the last vestiges of formal discrimination in this country. While I am very glad that chapter in American history is long behind us, I don't feel that I have anything to be ashamed of there. Another principle that separates modern conservatives and liberals is that conservatives feel responsible to atone for their own sins. Liberals seem to want me to atone for their guilt-wracked consciences.


And a bit later, in the same post, Foxfyre wrote:

You say in one breath that we haven't paid enough for our past sins and must do much more, and in the next that you don't hold your country in contempt. You seem to be unable to acknowledge, much be proud of the millions upon millions of people who live free and safe today because there is a United States of America.


You can count yourself lucky that you don't live in a glass house.


And your point is? What would people see if I lived in a glass house? What have I said here that would not withstand the closest scrutiny and be found true?
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:15 am
Quote:
Snowe Pressured To Reach Health Care Compromise
(Associated Press, September 6, 2009)

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, is determined that something be done about health care.

She said "People are feeling desperation and despair."

Snowe prides herself on her bipartisan approaches to tough issues and once again finds herself in the middle of one with big stakes.

Snowe is a member of the so-called Gang of Six on the Senate Finance Committee, which is under intense pressure to work out a compromise.

She would create a public health insurance option only if private insurers prove unwilling or unable to meet certain affordability targets. Nonprofit agencies, she proposes, would offer health insurance only if private insurers could not cover 95 percent of the people in their regions with plans costing no more than about 15 percent of a person's or a household's annual income.


A non-partisan, pragmatic approach by both Democrats and Republicans can assure that at least some steps can be accomplished this year. Other steps in health care reform can be worked out in succeeding years.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:19 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Perhaps you don't realize that both programs are bleeding billions of dollars red ink and are not sustainable?

Perhaps it is bleeding red ink because people like you are taking far more out if it than you ever paid in.


But you justify your taking it because you paid in never mind that you will get far more back.

You ARE a hypocrite Foxfyre even though you like to pretend you aren't.
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:19 am
@Foxfyre,
Sorry, foxy, you're money is gone. Long gone - there's none left - so yes, if you're bellyaching about the financial affairs of the country and accepting monies from it's tits, then you're a hypocrite. Those YOU elected to safeguard the piggy bank forgot to tell you they were more interested in their own reelection than protecting your future. Live with it -- you made a mistake by trusting those you empowered to protect your future. By taking public monies that we can't afford to give you, and complaining about it -- you're a hypocrite.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:21 am
@JPB,
It's not only the fact that Foxxie has no problem or issue with her fellow Americans as they continue to lose their jobs and homes, and must rely on our government to live. Her use of the noun "I" has made her into an uncaring, unchristian, hypocrite of the worst kind; she only lives for herself! She has no shame in declaring "tough ****" to those who no fault on their own have lost their jobs.

The only thing "conservative" about republicans is their inability to see the suffering of others; it's all about "me."
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:32 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
figure the blood and treasure we have expended to eradicate slavery, discrimination, and unjustifiable oppression here and abroad is the best we can do to pay for our past sins regarding treatment of others. I figure the trillions we have contributed to relief and empowerment of other peoples compensates at least in part for any economic damage we intentionally or inadvertently created for others.


Foxfyre wrote:
As for sins, unlike presumably you see yourself, I have never owned slaves or condoned slavery nor, to the best of my knowledge, have I ever improperly discriminated against anybody. In fact I had opportunity to work directly to help eradicate some of the last vestiges of formal discrimination in this country. While I am very glad that chapter in American history is long behind us, I don't feel that I have anything to be ashamed of there. Another principle that separates modern conservatives and liberals is that conservatives feel responsible to atone for their own sins. Liberals seem to want me to atone for their guilt-wracked consciences.


Nice dodge --- You invoke the plural we in the first comment and then say that because you yourself have "worked directly" that your conscience is clear. Putting the two together you've said that your efforts have compensated for the past sins (I deny they are in the past) of Americans. Man, you have a high opinion of yourself! Go ahead and sleep at night with your conscience clear -- your work is done, you've atoned, "We've done enough" -- God Bless, Fox!


I know it is difficult for liberals to read and comprehend what is said, and nigh near impossible to focus on on principle apart from the liberal manifesto and playbook. But try. You're a smart lady. I know you can do it.

I use the collective 'we' speaking of what I believe American has accomplished, what America can be proud of, and what America can realistically, ethically, and responsibly do. I don't expect somebody who holds their country in contempt and looks at other countries as somehow superior or more worthy to understand that sentiment.

I did not refer in any way to what I personally feel guilty about or what I personally feel my responsibility to be toward others, but I do believe whatever responsibility I have toward others to be my responsibility in the area of charity and benevolence. It is not charity unless I give it personally. As a conservative I have no right to expect or require you to participate in such benevolence and I take away your unalienable Constitutional rights when I force you to do so.

I used the specific 'you' to refer to your own presumably professed sense of corporate guilt as I think it is not only foolish but shared by only the most blatant leftwing ideologues and they don't feel personal responsibility. Again they want me to pay to absolve their guilt racked consciences.

It is better for me to have a good opinion of myself I think, than for me to presume to tell you who you must be and what you are required to believe and accept in order to be acceptable. I can't imagine how one sees it a charity whenone person is forced to be an unpaid servant to another. I can't imagine what kind of arrogance it requires to think about others as judgmentally as you apparently do.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:34 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Quote:
Snowe Pressured To Reach Health Care Compromise
(Associated Press, September 6, 2009)

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, is determined that something be done about health care.

She said "People are feeling desperation and despair."

Snowe prides herself on her bipartisan approaches to tough issues and once again finds herself in the middle of one with big stakes.

Snowe is a member of the so-called Gang of Six on the Senate Finance Committee, which is under intense pressure to work out a compromise.

She would create a public health insurance option only if private insurers prove unwilling or unable to meet certain affordability targets. Nonprofit agencies, she proposes, would offer health insurance only if private insurers could not cover 95 percent of the people in their regions with plans costing no more than about 15 percent of a person's or a household's annual income.


A non-partisan, pragmatic approach by both Democrats and Republicans can assure that at least some steps can be accomplished this year. Other steps in health care reform can be worked out in succeeding years.


I don't want a compromise for something that is going to make things worse just so Congress can brag that it did something. I want a plan that will make things better.

Is that too much to ask?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:35 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Sorry, foxy, you're money is gone. Long gone - there's none left - so yes, if you're bellyaching about the financial affairs of the country and accepting monies from it's tits, then you're a hypocrite. Those YOU elected to safeguard the piggy bank forgot to tell you they were more interested in their own reelection than protecting your future. Live with it -- you made a mistake by trusting those you empowered to protect your future. By taking public monies that we can't afford to give you, and complaining about it -- you're a hypocrite.


Fine JPB. You are a brilliant woman so because you say it, it must be true. Does it make you feel noble and righteous to say things like that? Do have a great day.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:50 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:



Fine JPB. You are a brilliant woman so because you say it, it must be true. Does it make you feel noble and righteous to say things like that? Do have a great day.


I always find it humorous the way Fox tells people to "Do have a great day". It always is preceded by an attack on their person. It's almost as if she believes wishing a great day negates the snarky comment that precedes it.

Her continual denials of doing such a thing makes me think she really does believe it.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:52 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
We are trying to preserve the best healthcare system in the world while improving it.


Speaking of the devil .... In today's Albuquerque Journal (pages A1, A6 and A7) are a couple of reports and articles about the best healthcare in the world:
http://i26.tinypic.com/14kju55.jpg

(Not that I think, results would be much better elsewhere in the world.)
JTT
 
  3  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:54 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
I can't imagine what kind of arrogance it requires to think about others as judgmentally as you apparently do.


Yet Foxy sits there in judgement of gays & lesbians, who in her twisted mind, are not worthy of sharing the institution of marriage with her.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:55 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
We are trying to preserve the best healthcare system in the world while improving it.


Speaking of the devil .... In today's Albuquerque Journal (pages A1, A6 and A7) are a couple of reports and articles about the best healthcare in the world:
http://i26.tinypic.com/14kju55.jpg

(Not that I think, results would be much better elsewhere in the world.)


Walter, I will try to keep this simple so your translator won't misinterpret it.

Health care is diagnosis, counsel, physical therapy, healing medicines, and necessary procedures.

Health care insurance can be used to pay for health care.

They are two different animals. Please try to understand that when I say that we have the best health care in the world here in the USA.
parados
 
  3  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 08:59 am
@Foxfyre,
Getting care when needed isn't health care I guess.
Getting care quickly isn't health care I guess.
Actually talking to Doctors isn't health care I guess.

Is it really good health care if only 78% of people get needed care? That means 20% of people aren't getting care they NEED.
Is it really good health care if only 80% get care quickly?
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 09:00 am
@Foxfyre,
Oh, if only we could afford it! We can't. Simple, plain truth.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 09:04 am
@parados,
What's humorous is that she calls me arrogant and righteous in response to a post that places a mirror in front of herself.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 09:08 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Walter, I will try to keep this simple so your translator won't misinterpret it.


I've never said such here in this side, but you really are a ....!
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Sep, 2009 09:08 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

wandeljw wrote:

Quote:
Snowe Pressured To Reach Health Care Compromise
(Associated Press, September 6, 2009)

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, is determined that something be done about health care.

She said "People are feeling desperation and despair."

Snowe prides herself on her bipartisan approaches to tough issues and once again finds herself in the middle of one with big stakes.

Snowe is a member of the so-called Gang of Six on the Senate Finance Committee, which is under intense pressure to work out a compromise.

She would create a public health insurance option only if private insurers prove unwilling or unable to meet certain affordability targets. Nonprofit agencies, she proposes, would offer health insurance only if private insurers could not cover 95 percent of the people in their regions with plans costing no more than about 15 percent of a person's or a household's annual income.


A non-partisan, pragmatic approach by both Democrats and Republicans can assure that at least some steps can be accomplished this year. Other steps in health care reform can be worked out in succeeding years.


I don't want a compromise for something that is going to make things worse just so Congress can brag that it did something. I want a plan that will make things better.

Is that too much to ask?


I honestly believe that Congress is working to solve a real problem, not "just so Congress can brag." Senator Snowe recognizes that millions are in despair over hardships caused by the high cost of health care.
0 Replies
 
 

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