55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 12:44 pm
@FreeDuck,
More domestic security forces makes more sense than to get involved in wars thousands of miles away from home. Fighting terrorists and terrorism is the responsibility of the world community - not the total responsibility of the US.

With greater domestic security forces, we can also control illegal immigration, and terrorist activity at home; we do have them.

DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 12:50 pm
@cicerone imposter,
it doesn't help that the National Guard, which was charged with domestic work, has been pillaged to provide Iraq and Afghanistan with national security.

i guess if we had a major conflagration, we could call up the kindergartners.
Foxfyre
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 12:54 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
If a Republican President had said such a thing in the way that Obama said this with his Chief of Staff backing him up, most Republicans would be demanding he retract the statement or clarify it or otherwise would be looking for a way to oust him. And so would you. You can deny it all you want, but you know it is true.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 01:01 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Civil Defense during WWII existed to protect us against the possibility of attack or invasion by the Nazis and Shintoists with whom we were at war.

Civil Defense during WWII was proven unnecessary after we won WWII.

We know that continuing to work to destroy al-Qaeda where they are based is a far better strategy than waiting until al-Qaeda again attacks America, and defending ourselves here against those attacks.

Hmmm ... Is there something else Obama wants to defend us against? ... rescuing our Constitutional republic? ...
DontTreadOnMe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 01:05 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

If a Republican President had said such a thing in the way that Obama said this with his Chief of Staff backing him up, most Republicans would be demanding he retract the statement or clarify it or otherwise would be looking for a way to oust him. And so would you. You can deny it all you want, but you know it is true.


oh please. was there a big uproar over cd or cap? no, there wasn't. it's the same damn thing, hopefully updated to deal with newer problems.

and what did he say that was so "horrible"? we can't count only on the police and the military in times of disaster.

i thought you "constitution says" types were all for militias and a such.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 01:10 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:
...
Civil Defense during WWII was proven unnecessary after we won WWII....


duh.

0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  3  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 01:10 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

If a Republican President had said such a thing in the way that Obama said this with his Chief of Staff backing him up, most Republicans would be demanding he retract the statement or clarify it or otherwise would be looking for a way to oust him. And so would you. You can deny it all you want, but you know it is true.

I'm more concerned about actions than I am about words. Bush didn't announce that he was he deploying a privately owned military to Iraq, and that said military would not be subject to the sames laws, regulations, and accountability as our soldiers were, yet would be paid many times more. Or that they would return to be deployed by Homeland Security. No words required. He just did it. What has Obama actually done with respect to this "civilian national security force"?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 01:13 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
We know that continuing to work to destroy al-Qaeda where they are based is a far better strategy than waiting until al-Qaeda again attacks America, and defending ourselves here against those attacks.


I'm not really sure that you know anything, Ican. Those flight students must be nuts to get inside a plane that actually leaves the ground with such a boob.


Quote:
June 6, 2006 " This past weekend, a thought provoking e-mail circulated through Internet news groups, and was sent to the Muckraker Report by Mr. Paul V. Sheridan (Winner of the 2005 Civil Justice Foundation Award), bringing attention to the FBI’s Most Wanted Terrorist web page for Usama Bin Laden.[1] (See bottom of this web page for Most Wanted page) In the e-mail, the question is asked, “Why doesn’t Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted poster make any direct connection with the events of September 11, 2001?” The FBI says on its Bin Laden web page that Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998 bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. According to the FBI, these attacks killed over 200 people. The FBI concludes its reason for “wanting” Bin Laden by saying, “In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorists attacks throughout the world.”

On June 5, 2006, the Muckraker Report contacted the FBI Headquarters, (202) 324-3000, to learn why Bin Laden’s Most Wanted poster did not indicate that Usama was also wanted in connection with 9/11. The Muckraker Report spoke with Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”

Surprised by the ease in which this FBI spokesman made such an astonishing statement, I asked, “How this was possible?” Tomb continued, “Bin Laden has not been formally charged in connection to 9/11.” I asked, “How does that work?” Tomb continued, “The FBI gathers evidence. Once evidence is gathered, it is turned over to the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice than decides whether it has enough evidence to present to a federal grand jury. In the case of the 1998 United States Embassies being bombed, Bin Laden has been formally indicted and charged by a grand jury. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connected Bin Laden to 9/11.”

It shouldn’t take long before the full meaning of these FBI statements start to prick your brain and raise your blood pressure. If you think the way I think, in quick order you will be wrestling with a barrage of very powerful questions that must be answered. First and foremost, if the U.S. government does not have enough hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11, how is it possible that it had enough evidence to invade Afghanistan to “smoke him out of his cave?” The federal government claims to have invaded Afghanistan to “root out” Bin Laden and the Taliban. Through the talking heads in the mainstream media, the Bush Administration told the American people that Usama Bin Laden was Public Enemy Number One and responsible for the deaths of nearly 3000 people on September 11, 2001. Yet nearly five years later, the FBI says that it has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 01:56 pm
@JTT,
ican uses the same fear-mongering as the brainless right; how does he think al Qaida members are going to get into the US? Has he ever tried to catch a flight into the US from a foreign country? I think not. All international airports I have ever flown into or out of has the same security measures of a passport and VISA (when required). All baggage is check through security, and some times passengers are required to open up their baggage for hand inspections after the xray. I can't even get my electric shaver through sometimes.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 02:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
...I can't even get my electric shaver through sometimes.


one TSA agent took a look at my heart spray and shouted "nitroglycerine!". proceeded to hold it up over her head and called for "back-up". Very Happy

0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 03:08 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
Quote:
it doesn't help that the National Guard, which was charged with domestic work, has been pillaged to provide Iraq and Afghanistan with national security.


The NG can be called into federal service at any time, and it has been done before.
So, for you to get all upset now is a little silly.
Diest TKO
 
  3  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 03:19 pm
ican711nm - You keep referring to the the Japanese as the Shintoists. Tell me why you think you are doing that?

The Japanese Imperialists used the Shinto religion of Japan, no more than the USA invokes Christianity as a means of divine national pride. Should our enemies know us as the Christianists?

T
K
O
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 03:21 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
it doesn't help that the National Guard, which was charged with domestic work, has been pillaged to provide Iraq and Afghanistan with national security.


The NG can be called into federal service at any time, and it has been done before.
So, for you to get all upset now is a little silly.


No need for anyone to get upset. No lawsuit involved. (whoops! wrong thread! Smile )
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 03:29 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
I'm not really sure that you know anything, Ican. Those flight students must be nuts to get inside a plane that actually leaves the ground with such a boob.

JTT, you make yourself appear that you don't know anything by posting this.

As for the propaganda about Osama bin Laden that you included, here's another view from the horse's--or should I say the camel's--mouth.

Here again is some evidence that al-Qaeda’s true intentions are to get Americans to leave Iraq and Afghanistan, and follow up our departure with many more 9/11 equivalents or worse.

Osama bin Laden wrote:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html
Osama Bin Laden "Declaration of War Against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places"-1996.

I say to you ... These youths [love] death as you love life.
…Those youths know that their rewards in fighting you, the USA, is double than their rewards in fighting some one else not from the people of the book. They have no intention except to enter paradise by killing you. An infidel, and enemy of God like you, cannot be in the same hell with his righteous executioner.

… Few days ago the news agencies had reported that the Defence Secretary of the Crusading Americans had said that "the explosion at Riyadh and Al-Khobar had taught him one lesson: that is not to withdraw when attacked by coward terrorists".

We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk can induce a grieving mother to laughter! and shows the fears that had enshrined you all. Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut took place on 1983 AD (1403 A.H). You were turned into scattered pits and pieces at that time; 241 mainly marines solders were killed. And where was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave Aden in lees than twenty four hours!

But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu.

Osama bin Laden wrote:


http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm
Osama Bin Laden: Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans-1998
… On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

Osama bin Laden wrote:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00035.html
Jun 09, 2004 from the Al-Qaida Organization of the Arab Gulf; 19 Rabbi Al-Akhir 1425
… No Muslim should risk his life as he may inadvertently be killed if he associates with the Crusaders, whom we have no choice but to kill.

… Everything related to them such as complexes, bases, means of transportation, especially Western and American Airlines, will be our main and direct targets in our forthcoming operations on our path of Jihad that we, with Allah's Power, will not turn away from.[/size]

Quote:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch2.htm
THE FOUNDATION OF THE NEW TERRORISM

2.1 A DECLARATION OF WAR
In February 1998, the 40-year-old Saudi exile Usama Bin Ladin and a fugitive Egyptian physician, Ayman al Zawahiri, arranged from their Afghan headquarters for an Arabic newspaper in London to publish what they termed a fatwa issued in the name of a "World Islamic Front." A fatwa is normally an interpretation of Islamic law by a respected Islamic authority, but neither Bin Ladin, Zawahiri, nor the three others who signed this statement were scholars of Islamic law. Claiming that America had declared war against God and his messenger, they called for the murder of any American, anywhere on earth, as the "individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it."1

Three months later, when interviewed in Afghanistan by ABC-TV, Bin Ladin enlarged on these themes.2 He claimed it was more important for Muslims to kill Americans than to kill other infidels. "It is far better for anyone to kill a single American soldier than to squander his efforts on other activities," he said. Asked whether he approved of terrorism and of attacks on civilians, he replied: "We believe that the worst thieves in the world today and the worst terrorists are the Americans. Nothing could stop you except perhaps retaliation in kind. We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they are all targets."
...
Plans to attack the United States were developed with unwavering single-mindedness throughout the 1990s. Bin Ladin saw himself as called "to follow in the footsteps of the Messenger and to communicate his message to all nations,"5 and to serve as the rallying point and organizer of a new kind of war to destroy America and bring the world to Islam.

Quote:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch2.htm
2.3 THE RISE OF BIN LADIN AND AL QAEDA (1988-1992)
...
Bin Ladin understood better than most of the volunteers the extent to which the continuation and eventual success of the jihad in Afghanistan depended on an increasingly complex, almost worldwide organization. This organization included a financial support network that came to be known as the "Golden Chain," put together mainly by financiers in Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf states. Donations flowed through charities or other nongovernmental organizations (NGOs). Bin Ladin and the "Afghan Arabs" drew largely on funds raised by this network, whose agents roamed world markets to buy arms and supplies for the mujahideen, or "holy warriors."21
...
Bin Ladin now had a vision of himself as head of an international jihad confederation. In Sudan, he established an "Islamic Army Shura" that was to serve as the coordinating body for the consortium of terrorist groups with which he was forging alliances. It was composed of his own al Qaeda Shura together with leaders or representatives of terrorist organizations that were still independent. In building this Islamic army, he enlisted groups from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Oman, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, Somalia, and Eritrea. Al Qaeda also established cooperative but less formal relationships with other extremist groups from these same countries; from the African states of Chad, Mali, Niger, Nigeria, and Uganda; and from the Southeast Asian states of Burma, Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia. Bin Ladin maintained connections in the Bosnian conflict as well.37 The groundwork for a true global terrorist network was being laid.
...
Bin Ladin seemed willing to include in the confederation terrorists from almost every corner of the Muslim world. His vision mirrored that of Sudan's Islamist leader, Turabi, who convened a series of meetings under the label Popular Arab and Islamic Conference around the time of Bin Ladin's arrival in that country. Delegations of violent Islamist extremists came from all the groups represented in Bin Ladin's Islamic Army Shura. Representatives also came from organizations such as the Palestine Liberation Organization, Hamas, and Hezbollah.51

...
Quote:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch2.htm
2.5 AL QAEDA'S RENEWAL IN AFGHANISTAN (1996-1998)
...
The Taliban seemed to open the doors to all who wanted to come to Afghanistan to train in the camps. The alliance with the Taliban provided al Qaeda a sanctuary in which to train and indoctrinate fighters and terrorists, import weapons, forge ties with other jihad groups and leaders, and plot and staff terrorist schemes. While Bin Ladin maintained his own al Qaeda guesthouses and camps for vetting and training recruits, he also provided support to and benefited from the broad infrastructure of such facilities in Afghanistan made available to the global network of Islamist movements. U.S. intelligence estimates put the total number of fighters who underwent instruction in Bin Ladin-supported camps in Afghanistan from 1996 through 9/11 at 10,000 to 20,000. 78
...
Now effectively merged with Zawahiri's Egyptian Islamic Jihad,82 al Qaeda promised to become the general headquarters for international terrorism, without the need for the Islamic Army Shura. Bin Ladin was prepared to pick up where he had left off in Sudan. He was ready to strike at "the head of the snake."
...
On February 23, 1998, Bin Ladin issued his public fatwa. The language had been in negotiation for some time, as part of the merger under way between Bin Ladin's organization and Zawahiri's Egyptian Islamic Jihad. Less than a month after the publication of the fatwa, the teams that were to carry out the embassy attacks were being pulled together in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam. The timing and content of their instructions indicate that the decision to launch the attacks had been made by the time the fatwa was issued.88
...

Quote:
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch2.htm
The attack on the U.S. embassy in Nairobi destroyed the embassy and killed 12 Americans and 201 others, almost all Kenyans. About 5,000 people were injured. The attack on the U.S. embassy in Dar es Salaam killed 11 more people, none of them Americans. Interviewed later about the deaths of the Africans, Bin Ladin answered that "when it becomes apparent that it would be impossible to repel these Americans without assaulting them, even if this involved the killing of Muslims, this is permissible under Islam." Asked if he had indeed masterminded these bombings, Bin Ladin said that the World Islamic Front for jihad against "Jews and Crusaders" had issued a "crystal clear" fatwa. If the instigation for jihad against the Jews and the Americans to liberate the holy places "is considered a crime," he said, "let history be a witness that I am a criminal."93
...


al-Zawahiri wrote:

www.dni.gov/release_letter_101105.html
Summary of Letter from al-Zawahiri to al-Zarqawi July 9, 2005.
The war in Iraq is central to al Qa'ida's global jihad.
The war will not end with an American departure.
[/b]
The strategic vision is one of inevitable conflict with a call by al-Zawahiri for political action equal to military action.
More than half the struggle is taking place "in the battlefield of the media."
Popular support must be maintained at least until jihadist rule has been established.

0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 03:29 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

The Supreme Court has itself reversed its past decisions. Those decisions are not God's. They are human decisions and are just as likely as they were in the past to be reversed again!

Indeed, and any careful student of the constitution takes that into account, just as anyone would take into account the fact that the meanings of words may have changed over the course of two centuries. But then I'm sure you've always used the 1788 edition of the Merriam-Webster dictionary when relying on its definitions.

ican711nm wrote:
Also all 27 Amendments to the Constitution were approved by state legislators not by the Supreme Court.

Not the 21st amendment.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 03:52 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Not the 21st amendment.


You can't expect that everyone knows about state conventions, especially, since M-W@1788 doesn't mention that.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 03:58 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
it doesn't help that the National Guard, which was charged with domestic work, has been pillaged to provide Iraq and Afghanistan with national security.


The NG can be called into federal service at any time, and it has been done before.
So, for you to get all upset now is a little silly.


i'm not "all upset", j. i've felt it was a bad idea from the start. it was on a far smaller scale during vietnam. for gulf I, i knew a couple of guys that got called up, but mostly for logistics out of the channel islands.

but don't you agree that a guy doesn't join the guard with the expectation that he's going to be overseas for years ? meaning, if he was up for that, he would just join one of the regular branches?

in any case, i don't see what the problem is in having a new version of the Civil Defense program.

thoughts?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 04:00 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

If a Republican President had said such a thing in the way that Obama said this with his Chief of Staff backing him up, most Republicans would be demanding he retract the statement or clarify it or otherwise would be looking for a way to oust him. And so would you. You can deny it all you want, but you know it is true.


I know for a fact that this is untrue. A fact. The Republican party supported every dumb ass decision and statement the last president made, for years. It took 6 years of incompetence before any of you bunch started making any real criticism. You all spent tons of time attacking anyone who criticized the prez or alleged that he had bad goals in mind; now you do nothing but the same thing, and have forgotten your previous defense. We, however, have not.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 04:09 pm
@Diest TKO,
The Japanese people in 1941 consisted of Buffhists, Confucianists, Hinduists, Taoists, and Shintoists. The leaders of Japan in 1941 were Shintoists.

The German people in 1941 consisted of Protestants, Catholics, Jews and Nazis. The leaders of Germany in 1941 were Nazis.
Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=shinto&x=30&y=10
Main Entry: 1shin·to
...
: the indigenous religion and former ethnic cult of Japan characterized by the reverence of kami, deified nature spirits, and spirits of ancestors and its great antiquity but lack of an historical founder or organized teachings

DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 04:14 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

...Buffhists....


pardon, professor?
 

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