55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Even Hillary's?
Her statement was trumpeted by all the dems when they opposed Bush as a statement of FACT and principle.

So, does her statement still stand.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:21 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Even Hillary's?
Her statement was trumpeted by all the dems when they opposed Bush as a statement of FACT and principle.

So, does her statement still stand.



Of course it does. And nobody is saying that folks cannot register their dissent; they very well can. But shouting and disrupting the meeting isn't registering your dissent, it is attempting to shut things down and stop an actual conversation from happening.

Look, the behavior of many Republicans at these events has been atrocious and childish, you know it has, and I can't figure out why you are arguing in support of it.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:24 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Then you are saying that the liberals who rudely disrupted all those conservative meetings and speaking events were off base, crude, disrespectful, and served no good purpose and were not justly exercising their right to free speech and dissent?
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:24 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I can't figure out why you are arguing in support of it.


I'm NOT arguing in support of it, and am on record as saying I think its stupid and wrong.
I am arguing that the same people criticizing it, calling it "unAmerican" or "unpatriotic" are the same people that applauded such efforts when they were aimed at Bush.
It seems that it was OK then, but its not ok now.

Thats what I have a problem with.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:26 pm
@mysteryman,
Ditto. Which is what I have been saying all along.

I have no problem with criticizing unproductive or rude behavior on the street, in meetings, at speeches, or on message boards.

What I have a problem with is claiming that it is organized, orchestrated, paid for unproductive or rude behavior.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:26 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Then you are saying that the liberals who rudely disrupted all those conservative meetings and speaking events were off base, crude, disrespectful, and served no good purpose and were not justly exercising their right to free speech and dissent?


Can you link to reports of liberals rudely disrupting Conservative town hall meetings? I'd like to see them.

If you are referring to groups such as Code Pink, who disrupts many actual government meetings with their actions - then yes - I agree with you, they served no good purpose and were not dissenting but disrupting.

Cycloptichorn
DontTreadOnMe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:27 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Then you should be able to show that "evidence".


here's a little bit..

Quote:

Even if you don’t live in one of these legislators’ states or districts, it is still important that you call the offices of one or more of our targets. And if you do live in one of the targeted lawmakers’ states or districts, please take the time to schedule a visit with their district staff. In either case, let us know about the contacts that you make so that we can share your feedback with others.


http://www.freedomworks.org/stop-congress-from-sneaking-socialized-medicine-th-0

a little more..

Quote:
FreedomWorks Board Member Has Vested Interest In Private Health Care Industry
August 05, 2009 10:34 am ET
FreedomWorks board member Richard J. Stephenson has spent much of his career in the health care industry. Not only is he the founder of the Cancer Centers of America but he was also the president of International Capital & Management Co., an organization specializing in making hospitals more efficient and cost-effective.


http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/200908050002

and that's just from freedomworks, j.

then there is this;

Quote:
A Act i on Me mo
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Hi me s ' s To wn HaJ] me e t i n g in Ma y 2009. We be l i e ve t he r e are s o me b e s t pr a c t i c e s
wh i c h e me r g e d from t he e v e n t a nd o u r exper i ence, whI ch coul d b e useful to act i vi s t s in
j u s t a bout a n y d i s t n c t wh e r e t he i r Congr e s s pe r s on has s uppor t ed t he s oci al i s t a g e n d a o f
t he De mo c r a t l eader s hi p in Was hi ngt on.
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gre:SSll1aJl, p u t hi m o n t he def ensi ve, and gi ve hi m a r eal i t y c h e c k from ,,!p_rn,~_
peopl e. We we r e s uc c e s s f ul in or ga ni z i ng a bout 3 0 p e o p l e and we s pr ead o u t a mo n g t he
c r o wd o f a b o u t 150 p e o p l e m t he hall. We used s o me t e c hni que s on wh i c h
i mme di a t e l y uncomf or t abl e, and o f us got o u r c h a n c e at t he
mi c r o p h o n e to a s k que s t i ons . cl ear l y left t he hall s t agger ed, as t he me e t mg , bi l l e d
as a pr ogr e s s r e p o r t for hi s e c o n o mi c sol ut i ons, c l e a r l y d i d not go as he had pl a nne d.
We h u mb l y s u b mi t t he f ol l owi ng as a pot ent i al p l a y b o o k t o c o n d u c t s i mi l a r e ve nt s to
a c hi e ve s i mi l a r o u t c o me s in mo s t any t ar get ed di st ri ct .


i had to pull it from the pdf, so it's a little grotty. the full text is here;

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/townhallactionmemo.pdf

there's a lot more to this than mr. and mrs. america voicing their concerns.








Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:28 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Ditto. Which is what I have been saying all along.

I have no problem with criticizing unproductive or rude behavior on the street, in meetings, at speeches, or on message boards.

What I have a problem with is claiming that it is organized, orchestrated, paid for unproductive or rude behavior.


It is organized, and the organizers are being paid by health care lobbies. That's a fact - the two groups I mentioned earlier, AFP and Freedomworks, have been organizing these protests (as well as 'tea parties') and they have received a shitload of money from anti-reform corporations.

I do not believe the actual protesters are being paid by anyone; most of them are genuinely worried and angry. That however does not excuse their behavior, and it's sad, b/c most of their worries come from lies which were fed to them - and you, Fox. Remember all that 'forced suicide' bullshit that your side was prattling about a few weeks back? I seem to recall several here parroting those lies.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:29 pm
@Foxfyre,
maybe if you actually watched bill maher, instead of just reading that stuff, you'd know that he has routinely made jokes about and complained about obama...
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:30 pm
@Foxfyre,
what more context do you need??? she was outside waitng in line. which you would know if you actually watched the clip. the officer said lose the sign and you can get back in line..


mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:36 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
The claim was that the MEDIA were orchestrating these protests.
So far, I have seen no evidence to support that claim.

Private groups, PAC's, and corporate sponsored orgs are NOT the media.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:39 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

If you are referring to groups such as Code Pink, who disrupts many actual government meetings with their actions - then yes - I agree with you, they served no good purpose and were not dissenting but disrupting.


and kind of embarassing, really. in fact i'll go one further and say that for the most part the anti-iraq war movement was one of the biggest cluster flops i have ever witnessed.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:41 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

The claim was that the MEDIA were orchestrating these protests.
So far, I have seen no evidence to support that claim.


Bull; I claimed that the media AND Conservative groups were orchestrating these protests, and they are. I have provided evidence, which you refused to examine. If you 'haven't seen it,' it's because you don't want to look.

Quote:
Private groups, PAC's, and corporate sponsored orgs are NOT the media.


No ****. But they are whipping up fear amongst right-wingers.

Quote:
Americans for Prosperity Compares Health Care Reform To Holocaust, Tells Protesters To Put 'Fear Of God' In Members Of Congress
By Brian Beutler - August 7, 2009, 11:37AM

During the course of the last week, you may have wondered why anti-health care reform activists are so riled up--what buttons are being pushed by the people encouraging the town hall disruptions.

Well, here's video footage of a Patients First bus tour event in Pueblo, CO, that shines some light on that.

Patients First is a project of Americans for Prosperity--one of the key conservative interests groups helping to organize the town hall protests we've been covering. The speaker repeats the debunked conservative canard that Democratic health care reform will mandate physician assisted suicide. "Adolf Hitler issued six million end of life orders--he called his program the final solution. I kind of wonder what we're going to call ours."

And after comparing Democratic health care reform efforts to the murderous regimes of Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot, the speaker advises his audience to "go to offices of members of Congress and put the fear of god in them."





http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/americans-for-prosperity-compares-health-care-reform-to-holocaust-tells-protesters-to-put-fear-of-go.php

Fear-mongering of the worst sort, led by Conservative lobbyist groups, paid by the health care industry.

Cycloptichorn
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:42 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

The claim was that the MEDIA were orchestrating these protests.
So far, I have seen no evidence to support that claim.

Private groups, PAC's, and corporate sponsored orgs are NOT the media.


well, if you can post a clip where any of the big conservative radio or t.v. people or outlets is clearly saying "don't go and be disruptive", i'm happy to view and confer.

so far, all i have seen is the opposite.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:56 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
"End of life order" is what he said; it's total bull ****, and all those seniors are eating it up as if it has any veracity. Many seniors also get their life savings stolen, because they don't know when they hear bull ****.

0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:56 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Here is the actual quote...

Quote:
However, there is a great deal of evidence showing that these people - who do have valid concerns - are being whipped into a frenzy by the right-wing media


Now, where in this quote do the words "Conservative groups" appear?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:57 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
So not stopping it is the same as supporting it?
Are you seriously saying that?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 01:04 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Then you are saying that the liberals who rudely disrupted all those conservative meetings and speaking events were off base, crude, disrespectful, and served no good purpose and were not justly exercising their right to free speech and dissent?


Can you link to reports of liberals rudely disrupting Conservative town hall meetings? I'd like to see them.

If you are referring to groups such as Code Pink, who disrupts many actual government meetings with their actions - then yes - I agree with you, they served no good purpose and were not dissenting but disrupting.

Cycloptichorn


Here’s the first few that came up. Because current news has pushed the Bush administration stuff off the first search pages, I didn’t dig too deeply. This should provide the drift though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vrlQF-PbxQ

How the Minutemen invited to speak at Columbia U were treated
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuNXmy0e5fc

David Horowitz invited to speak at Emory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWhv4zO6IqU

prolife speaker shouted down at Xavier
http://westernstandard.bitcurve.com/wordpresshss/2009/02/pro-life-speaker-shouted-down-at-st-francis-xavier-university.html

Feder at Republican Club meeting Umass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJPmv1vTbjc

Smith College when the invited ‘anti-gay’ speaker got up to speak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK4dbHNbgBo

Anti illegal immigration speech at UNC
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?id=6761633&section=news/local

No suggestions from the leftwing media that free speech is somehow being infringed in any of those cases. But if it is Teaparty people peacefully protesting or people exercising their right to peaceful (even if angry and rude) protest at Townhall meetings, well that’s just terrible.

Below are some of the tips for town halls written by Daily Kos writer Don Briggs:

Quote:
Rep. Pete Visclosky (D, IN-01), on Monday, Aug. 3, 6:30 PM. We invited the public and their written questions. It seems good to share with the Daily Kos readership some lessons we learned.

#1. We sent out Public Service Announcements to the local media a week in advance, and then followed up with phone calls to each outlet the Thursday before the weekend. The event got good exposure.

#2. The topic of Health Care Reform draws the Tea Baggers, no problem. But oddly, it proved somewhat difficult to rouse enough Progressives to attend. We recommend a strong, multifaceted approach. We posted the event with MoveOn and Organizing for America. But, we also blasted e-mail to lists scoured from the 2006 election. In this effort, we succeeded, but barely. The attendance inside was split roughly evenly between Progressives and Tea Baggers. The meeting room filled to its capacity of 110 well before our start time. About 40 Tea Baggers and 20 Progressives remained outside. Both sides had their signs.
Democratic leadership is charging that those who are are attending town halls and questioning their representatives are "manufactured" and are a result of GOP "astroturfing."

( However, those on the left contact their friends in the media, post the event to MoveOn, Organizing for America, and blast e-mail to lists "scoured from the 2006 election." How is that not astroturfing? What is so pathetic is even from a 2006 presidential victory campaign list, they still could not turn out massive numbers to overwhelm those who were there to oppose a healthcare reform agenda.)

...#4. "Don't call them Tea Baggers to their faces in a public setting. Yes, we all know"they self-identified as Tea Baggers early on. But, in a public meeting, it gives them a pretext to take umbrage. Don't go there."

(How nice. However, Rachel Maddow first began calling conservatives who protested high taxes "tea baggers." It is an easy insult, and even the Howard Stern Show does not appear to use the term as loosely as Democratic web forums seem to these days.)
#10. And then in opening remarks, I blew the Tea Baggers' cover. Roughly, it went like this:

Meetings like this one continue a democratic tradition more than 2500 years old, that of the ancient Greek "Ecclesia." The term means "those called out""called out to discuss and decide civic matters, and to defend their ancient Greek city-states, to defend their democracy. And you all were called out by notices in the local papers, radio stations, by e-mail and internet, to discuss Health Care Reform and Clean Energy with our Representative tonight.

So know this: efforts to disrupt and thwart public discourse on civic matters are profoundly anti-democratic. But, that's an obstacle we face tonight. It's public knowledge that groups known as Tea Baggers intend to disrupt and thwart the public discourse on Health Care Reform in meetings like this during this month's Congressional Recess. They want Democracy to fail. So, let's face this obstacle together.

The Tea Baggers' instructions are also public knowledge. If some people stand up, shout out and sit down; if some try to rattle us and the Congressman; if some pretend numeric superiority; if some try to stifle intelligent debate; then we can compare that behavior to the Tea Baggers' instructions and draw our own conclusions.

Hey wait...Mr. Briggs just violated lesson #4, and he called them "Tea Baggers" in public to their face. Was Code Pink "thwarting and disrupting public discourse on civic matters" and were they "profoundly anti-democratic" when they disrupted General Patraeus's hearing? By the way, is Mr. Briggs not giving a set of public instructions for those who organize town halls and agree with his positions?

#11. As it turned out, Rep. Visclosky took one look at the stack of about 100 index cards with questions, and decided to make some opening remarks, and then simply invite verbal questions from the floor, one-at-a-time. His approach worked very well.

Written questions? Such a strategy only invites further censorship from a congressman's staffer. This strategy is very similar to what Rep. Keith Eliison (D-Ill.) did at his town hall meeting recently. He had attendees ask questions one after the other in a bundle. Mr. Ellison would then choose which question of the buch he would answer. It is a political trick to pick and choose which questions to avoid answering in constituent forums like town halls.

After Congessman Visclosky was challenged on the constitutionality of the the healthcare bill, Mr. Briggs seems convinced in lesson #12 that:
"at these meetings, we should raise the point that the Preamble to the Constitution includes the phrase 'promote the general welfare' as one of its key organizing principles."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/watercooler/2009/aug/05/online-liberal-activists-strategize
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 01:07 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

So not stopping it is the same as supporting it?
Are you seriously saying that?


ahh haaa... i see a chess move. Laughing but let's stick to domestic issues..

are you seriously saying that they don't support it?


DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 01:08 pm
@Foxfyre,
so 2 wrongs make a right?
 

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