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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 06:44 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, You still haven't figured out that ican can "never" provide evidence for his stance on anything. His inability to interpret the Constitution should be a clue that anything that has to do with our government operation will be be wrong when he offers any opinion about it. .

You must love to play merry-go-round.
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 06:46 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
cyclo wrote:
I would like to see 4 consecutive quarters of growth in 201o; for lending to increase and foreclosures to decrease; for the job market to have a year of consecutive months of adding more than 150k jobs per month in 2010. You?


There you go again, trying to change horses in mid-stream. You can't go back and develop new metrics that fit the current situation. The metrics must come from Obama's original bill and projections, else you're judging something altogether different than the bill in question.

Here's mine (all taken from the bill itself or administration documented objectives for the bill):

1) Within two years or by Feb 17, 2011, the BLS data shows 145,248,000 (Feb 09 figures plus 3.5M) employed

2) $590B or 75% f the $787B package spent by Aug 2010.

3) Renewable energy generating capacity doubled from 375.6 to 750.7TW-H by early 2012.

4) Complete modernization projects on 375,000 federal buildings (75% of the 500,000 buildings in the Govt inventory) and weatherization of two million homes by Feb 2011.

5) Computerize every American’s health record by 2014.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 06:48 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
you ought to be able to point to specific actions Obama is taking which violate the law, and not your nutty interpretations of tax laws, either. If you can't do that, you don't have much of a case.

I've done that multiple times. The most obvious violation of the Constitution by Obama is his transfer of property from those who lawfully earned it to those who have not lawfully earned it. He has declared that he intends to make more of these transfers. His healthcare bill states exactly that. Read it for yourself.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 06:52 pm
@slkshock7,
slkshock7 wrote:
Exactly what Obama said when he promised that the economic Recovery and Reinvestment Plan "will create or save three and a half million jobs over the next two years, including nearly 60,000 in Colorado..."


I think the "create or save" phrasing is problematic. "Saving" can be defined by anyone to mean nearly anything.

There's a definite gift for leaving wiggle room by the phrase-makers in the current U.S. administration.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 06:52 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
you ought to be able to point to specific actions Obama is taking which violate the law, and not your nutty interpretations of tax laws, either. If you can't do that, you don't have much of a case.

I've done that multiple times. The most obvious violation of the Constitution by Obama is his transfer of property from those who lawfully earned it to those who have not lawfully earned it. He has declared that he intends to make more of these transfers. His healthcare bill states exactly that. Read it for yourself.



That's one of your nutty tax ideas, Icann. It isn't actually against the law, outside of your opinion it should be. I specifically said something else besides that, b/c I'm not interested into getting into your nutty ideas with you.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 06:56 pm
@slkshock7,
slkshock7 wrote:

cyclo wrote:
I would like to see 4 consecutive quarters of growth in 201o; for lending to increase and foreclosures to decrease; for the job market to have a year of consecutive months of adding more than 150k jobs per month in 2010. You?


There you go again, trying to change horses in mid-stream. You can't go back and develop new metrics that fit the current situation. The metrics must come from Obama's original bill and projections, else you're judging something altogether different than the bill in question.

Here's mine (all taken from the bill itself or administration documented objectives for the bill):

1) Within two years or by Feb 17, 2011, the BLS data shows 145,248,000 (Feb 09 figures plus 3.5M) employed

2) $590B or 75% f the $787B package spent by Aug 2010.

3) Renewable energy generating capacity doubled from 375.6 to 750.7TW-H by early 2012.

4) Complete modernization projects on 375,000 federal buildings (75% of the 500,000 buildings in the Govt inventory) and weatherization of two million homes by Feb 2011.

5) Computerize every American’s health record by 2014.


I'm amenable to those metrics, with the exception of #1, which isn't going to happen; the authors of the study which predicted those numbers have admitted that it isn't going to happen and that they were wrong, based on Q4 data from last year being worse than they had predicted. I don't know what else you expect anyone to do on that metric. I am willing to say that partial successes in this area should be considered by you, to be fair.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 06:57 pm
@old europe,
Old europe, I provided valid evidence for my allegations. It is clear that they knowingly distorted what I wrote to support their false allegations. Go back and read my post wherein I wrote, ""I cannot speak for any other conservative, but I want Obama to fail turning our Constitutional Republic into a statist dictatorship that ignores our Constitution." Then read what DTOM and CI wrote about that, and my responses.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:02 pm
@ican711nm,
1) like most right wing radicals, you can dish it out but you can't take it.

2) so you learned a lot about the nazis as a teen, hmm ?

that must be why you constantly embrace this approach to every issue;

Quote:
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
- Hermann Goering


after you lockstepped and parroted every thing the bush admin sputtered out over the years about "fight 'em over there so we don't have to fight 'em here" (ironic since they had already brought the fight here "on bush's watch". "on _ _ _ _ watch" is the correct buzz phrase this week, right?), "smoking gun is a mushroom cloud"; and last but not least, "you have to watch what you say"..... all of that stuff you signed on for and pushed out there....

which one of us is like a nazi, buster?

one of you radical right wing goons has called me that on another site today already. and he spouts the same ridiculous crap as you do, Herr Maulenfuhrer.


ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Cyclo, You still haven't figured out that ican can "never" provide evidence for his stance on anything. His inability to interpret the Constitution should be a clue that anything that has to do with our government operation will be be wrong when he offers any opinion about it.

This is an additional example of CI's libels: "ican can 'never' provide evidence for his stance on anything." ?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:11 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
Your made me laugh with this post of yours!

DTOM: "2) so you learned a lot about the nazis as a teen, hmm ?"

I actually said that I was a teenager when Goebbels died in 1945.

I said that several years later, I learned a lot a bout Geobbels propaganda from an immigrant who was a German fighter pilot.

I'll repost that post you are distorting.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:16 pm
@ican711nm,
ONE MORE TIME

Mysteryman, it's clear to me now. These guys are propagandists for an obamacrat statist dictatorship. They would make Joesph Paul Goebbels (1897 - 1945) proud. For those who don't know, Goebbels was Hitler's chief propagandist. I was a teenager when Goebbels died. I learned alot about how Nazi propaganda worked from a German immigrant to the United States who was a former German fighter pilot. At the time I met him--many years after Goebbels had died--he still hadn't forgiven himself for allowing himself to be deluded by Goebbel's propagandists to believe and hate what they taught him to believe and hate.

Logic and facts are irrelevant to them unless they can be twisted to advance their agnda. We can point out their inconsistencies every time, but it will make no difference to how they choose to behave.

That's why much of what they post constitutes libels of those with whom they disagree. Their hope is to discourage contrary opinion and honest debate. Failing discouragement, they seek to denigrate those who disagree with them to destroy their credibility, or at least make them less credible.

Excellent examples of their behavior can be found by reading their libels of Foxfyre when she defends her arguments against their criticisms.

In addition, observe how they accuse those who disagree with them of exhibiting exactly the same behavior they do.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:17 pm
@ican711nm,
and yet you don't dispute that you use the same tactics as the nazis.

by the way, a founding tenet of the nazis was a continuous pissing and moaning about how badly they had been treated by the victors after they lost the first world war.

du machst gute arbeit, Herr Maulenfuhrer.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:25 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,

I don't use the same tactics as the Nazis.

Do you dispute that you use the same tactics as the nazis?
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:27 pm
i'm not sure i'd compare the party faithful (from both sides) to nazis, whiny children maybe
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:27 pm
@ican711nm,
No, ican, your tactics are identical to Naziism. DTOM is more like democratic.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:29 pm
@slkshock7,
That's mostly how I remember it. Good to see this posted by someone on the conservative side.

The wiggle room this arguably leaves is that someone could argue that e.g. Cheney was talking only about the first stage of the war when he said that the whole conflict would be over in "weeks rather than months", or when Rumsfeld argued that "It could last, you know, six days, six weeks. I doubt six months."

Less ambiguous than promising to "create or save three and a half million jobs", though.

(I'll add that I'm not happy with the overly ambiguous phrasing of that particular promise. It's so obscure as to be meaningless, unless you can come up with a method to show how many jobs have been saved by a particular bill. I'd prefer if politicians would simply refrain from making promises rather than promising something that can hardly ever be measured.)
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:32 pm
@old europe,
oe, But they can be measured; it depends on whether the word "saved" or "created" is used. n
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:34 pm
@cicerone imposter,
How do you measure how many jobs have been saved?
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Really? has the administration already provided a definition for "saved" jobs?

If they haven't already developed and provided solid definitions of "saved" and "created", they've left the door open to have anything happen in the economy and to be able to say they've "saved" jobs. At the same time, they've left it open for their opponents to use literally the same data and say x number of jobs weren't "created".

They really need to work on their optics.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:44 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
At the time I met him--many years after Goebbels had died--he still hadn't forgiven himself for allowing himself to be deluded by Goebbel's propagandists to believe and hate what they taught him to believe and hate.

Logic and facts are irrelevant to them unless they can be twisted to advance their agnda. We can point out their inconsistencies every time, but it will make no difference to how they choose to behave.


Funny you should mention that, Ican. I just heard an American on radio today telling of the propaganda he was fed from an early age, how students mouthed empty platitudes every day at school [Oath of Submission, get Foofie to do it for you, she/he's fully brainwashed].

He worked on the chemical weapons programs and described how your government wafted chemical and biologic agents into the air. Who knows how many Americans have been sickened or died from these inhumane tests.

And you dare to malign others. By and large you've done well keeping to the propaganda, but then memorization is fairly easy to accomplish when you set your thinking mind aside. It's apparent that that too has come easy to you.
 

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