55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:55 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn, that is not "one of [my] nutty tax ideas. Obama is indeed transferring dollars of money--lawfully earned by them--paid by tax payers to people or organizations that did not earn that money. That action has nothing to do with Obama's and his precessor's non-uniform tax policies.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:58 pm
@ican711nm,
You're right, Ican. It's one of your nuttier tax ideas.
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 08:13 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
cyclo wrote:
I'm amenable to those metrics, with the exception of #1, which isn't going to happen; the authors of the study which predicted those numbers have admitted that it isn't going to happen and that they were wrong, based on Q4 data from last year being worse than they had predicted. I don't know what else you expect anyone to do on that metric. I am willing to say that partial successes in this area should be considered by you, to be fair.


Well, I'm a bit surprised that for a guy that was taking me to task for judging the whole bill a failure too soon, you now concede that at least that tenet has failed. And since that was, according to Obama "the single most important part of the economic Recovery and Reinvestment Plan" I think I'm well justified in my opinion that you should start the game with one strike against.

However in the interest of the game, I'll change the metric to simply recovering the jobs he lost during the first six months of his administration (1.5M) during the second half of Feb 2010 (which reflects where his current economic advisers including Ms. Romer are now suggesting the stimulus plan should really, really show an impact...cross your heart and die!). Of course this only gets us to where Obama began and if the plan is really stimulating you should see actual gains from that point, not just a stop of the bleeding. Therefore throw in your metric of 150K jobs per month for 12 consecutive months from then until Feb 2011. Sound reasonable?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 08:28 pm
@old europe,
You look at the trends on unemployment before any action is taken, then see if the unemployment trend slows down. It's never an accurate measure, but if nothing is done, we can assume it'll get worse (how far worse is the 64 thousand dollar question) before it gets better. If we use past economic history as our general guide such as the great depression, we know that it would have been much easier to control the worsening of the depression with the knowledge we have today. The economy today is much more complex, but we have some lessons to go by - namely what happened to Japan about two decades ago and the recessions we had since then to now. We also know that economic activity has its seasons, but with the world economy in crisis, the problems become more complex.

Three months ago, the job losses were running over 600,000 per month, and it was reduced to 500,000 per month. Did we save 100,000 jobs, or is it something between the 600k and 500k?

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 08:32 pm
@JTT,
JTT, That's not the end of the story of how our government treated our service men and women. They exposed them to nuclear weapons at test sites. Not long after the bombing of Hiroshima, our soldiers were sent in to do studies about the bomb.

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 09:09 pm
@cicerone imposter,
From Reuters:
Quote:
By Lucia Mutikani Lucia Mutikani " 2 hrs 24 mins ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) " The number of U.S. workers submitting new claims for jobless benefits fell sharply last week, fanning hopes the fragile labor market was on the mend and that the broader economy was stabilizing.

Initial claims for state unemployment insurance fell 38,000 to a seasonally adjusted 550,000 in the week ended August 1, the Labor Department said on Thursday, beating market expectations for a drop to 580,000.

Can we consider some of the 38,000 a "savings" of jobs?

In a sign that the trend was firmly toward a moderation in the pace of layoffs, the four-week moving average for new claims fell 4,750 to 555,250 in the week ended August 1.

The four-week moving average is considered a better gauge of underlying trends as it irons out week-to-week volatility. The moving average has declined for six consecutive weeks.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 09:32 pm
anyone who ever believed that all of this stuff was gonna be fixed over night either hasn't been listening or is just a little stupid.

0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 09:56 pm
@slkshock7,
slkshock7 wrote:

cyclo wrote:
I'm amenable to those metrics, with the exception of #1, which isn't going to happen; the authors of the study which predicted those numbers have admitted that it isn't going to happen and that they were wrong, based on Q4 data from last year being worse than they had predicted. I don't know what else you expect anyone to do on that metric. I am willing to say that partial successes in this area should be considered by you, to be fair.


Well, I'm a bit surprised that for a guy that was taking me to task for judging the whole bill a failure too soon, you now concede that at least that tenet has failed. And since that was, according to Obama "the single most important part of the economic Recovery and Reinvestment Plan" I think I'm well justified in my opinion that you should start the game with one strike against.

However in the interest of the game, I'll change the metric to simply recovering the jobs he lost during the first six months of his administration (1.5M) during the second half of Feb 2010 (which reflects where his current economic advisers including Ms. Romer are now suggesting the stimulus plan should really, really show an impact...cross your heart and die!). Of course this only gets us to where Obama began and if the plan is really stimulating you should see actual gains from that point, not just a stop of the bleeding. Therefore throw in your metric of 150K jobs per month for 12 consecutive months from then until Feb 2011. Sound reasonable?


Absolutely, and quite fair to all involved I must say.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 10:08 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
However, we must also remember that those numbers will start slowly during the first months and increase until Feb 2011 to meet that goal.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 11:10 pm
Meanwhile the healthcare debate rages on and is getting uglier and, we can only hope, will have an effect on the votes when Congress returns to Washington.

A sample of the so-called 'listening sessions':

The AARP listening session - continued after the AARP representative walked out. (They didn't want to listen I guess)
http://www.breitbart.tv/aarp-reps-cancel-listening-session-after-participants-refuse-to-keep-their-comments-quiet/

Tampa:
http://www.breitbart.tv/meeting-mayhem-violent-moments-reported-at-tampa-health-care-town-hall/

Arkansas
http://www.fox16.com/news/local/story/Rowdy-crowd-grills-congressmen-over-healthcare/TSiSTgUAeESfZ3a7pqZtnQ.cspx

South Florida
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/top-stories/v-fullstory/story/1173602.html

Connecticutt
http://www.courant.com/news/politics/hc-murphy-tea-party-0806.artaug06201412,0,1204957.story

The White House continues to try to paint the protesters as 'paid' or 'solicited' organized protesters which so far has not been proved in any case. Pelosi is pointing fingers that the protesters are carrying swaztikas and Barbara Boxer complains that the protesters are too well dressed for her tastes.

Our local representatives are scheduling town hall 'listening sessions' in small halls in areas of town least likely to draw large numbers of protesters. It has been theorized that the audiences will be hand picked. They are saying that they are getting mostly positive response re healthcare reform which I think is a bald faced lie.

And the Obama administration continues to encourage people to report to the government 'flag' website any 'fishy' negative comments or information they receive re healthcare reform. In other words, again this looks suspiciously like the Nixonian style 'enemies list' and is intended to intimidate. (A practice which the Supreme Court declared illegal during the Nixon administration.)
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 11:51 pm
@Foxfyre,
What good do you think it does to scream at representatives, and verbally abuse them?

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:15 am
@Cycloptichorn,
No good at all if that is the only thing happening. But the listening sessions are supposed to be a voice for the contituents. When emails, telegrams, telephone calls, letters, etc. are ignored, how else do you propose to get their attention? Obviously the AARP representative was not interested in hearing the opinion of their members. I doubt many of the pro healthcare reform bill Congressional representatives are either.

Congress has played the voters for sheep and patsies for so long, the people are angry. And they finally are angry enough to express it.

I would not want to be part of the shouting matches either, but I do understand the frustration that the people are feeling right now. They have one chance to stop this train before it leaves the station for good. And I think they don't intend to blow it.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 01:47 am
@Foxfyre,
you must be very proud of this "true democracy" that you bring.


parados
 
  3  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 06:48 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
No good at all if that is the only thing happening. But the listening sessions are supposed to be a voice for the contituents.


And when people that don't live in the district show up to shout down the representative of that district, it kind of defeats that purpose, doesn't it Fox?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 07:12 am
@DontTreadOnMe,
It gets world-wide attraction ... European media call it "Colosseum games" and "professional wrestling shows".

But we have not only different political systems but ... well, perhaps a different political attitude towards our elected representatives.

And here in Germany, lawwomen and lawmen are -according to our constitution (articel 38, Basic Law) "responsible only to their conscience" and not to town hall mob attendees.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 08:21 am
@Walter Hinteler,
We are a Republic, not a democracy, and as such our elected Representatives are given the power to enact policy and law on our behalf and manage our collective interests. Evenso, the USA was designed to be a government of the people, for the people, and by the people. This is why those who agree with the principles that went into the Constitution do expect to have a voice and to be heard. More especially, they expect to be heard when invited to attend forums where they are encouraged to express their objections to what they believe to be irresponsible government and/or unconstitutional law being imposed upon them. Even very angry objections.

The double standard continues to be in play. Our media was not accusing the Democrats of organizing the loud, unruly, angry mobs protesting the war or lobbying for gay rights or abortion rights or throwing things. Nobody suggested that the Democrats organized those who shouted down the Minutemen who had been invited to Columbia to speak. (Columbia, you know where Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was invited to speak and treated with complete deference and courtesy.) In many places in the ultra leftwing wacko world, conservatives are routinely shouted down or not allowed to speak at all.

Did the European media refer to that as"Colosseum games" and "professional wrestling shows"?

Our President and the Democrat Party would dearly love to believe that the current anger re what is seen as an intrusive, irresponsible, and unacceptable dismantling of the US health system is simply GOP interference using 'rent a mobs'. Nothing could be further from the truth.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 08:38 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
We are a Republic, not a democracy,
Whenever anyone starts out with that tired old thing, it's obvious they have been brainwashed by RW talk radio. The US is a republic AND a democracy. We aren't a pure democracy but we are a democracy as the word is defined in the dictionary. Look it up.

Quote:
and as such our elected Representatives are given the power to enact policy and law on our behalf and manage our collective interests. Evenso, the USA was designed to be a government of the people, for the people, and by the people. This is why those who agree with the principles that went into the Constitution do expect to have a voice and to be heard.
The people DO have a voice. It's called voting. The problem is some people feel if they lose the election they can commandeer the system by shouting down their elected officials and interfering with what those Representatives were elected to do. That isn't the way the system is supposed to work. We elected representatives to enact policy and law, not to have to answer to loud mouths that are upset they lost the election.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 08:51 am
Charles Krauthammer's recipe for real healthcare reform:

Quote:
(1) Tort reform: As I wrote recently, our crazy system of casino malpractice suits results in massive and random settlements that raise everyone's insurance premiums and creates an epidemic of defensive medicine that does no medical good, yet costs a fortune.

An authoritative Massachusetts Medical Society study found that five out of six doctors admitted they order tests, procedures and referrals -- amounting to about 25 percent of the total -- solely as protection from lawsuits. Defensive medicine, estimates the libertarian/conservative Pacific Research Institute, wastes more than $200 billion a year. Just half that sum could provide a $5,000 health insurance grant -- $20,000 for a family of four -- to the uninsured poor (U.S. citizens ineligible for other government health assistance).

What to do? Abolish the entire medical-malpractice system. Create a new social pool from which people injured in medical errors or accidents can draw. The adjudication would be done by medical experts, not lay juries giving away lottery prizes at the behest of the liquid-tongued John Edwardses who pocket a third of the proceeds.

The pool would be funded by a relatively small tax on all health-insurance premiums. Socialize the risk; cut out the trial lawyers. Would that immunize doctors from carelessness or negligence? No. The penalty would be losing your medical license. There is no more serious deterrent than forfeiting a decade of intensive medical training and the livelihood that comes with it.

(2) Real health-insurance reform: Tax employer-provided health care benefits and return the money to the employee with a government check to buy his own medical insurance, just as he buys his own car or home insurance.

There is no logical reason to get health insurance through your employer.
This entire system is an accident of World War II wage and price controls. It's economically senseless. It makes people stay in jobs they hate, decreasing labor mobility and therefore overall productivity. And it needlessly increases the anxiety of losing your job by raising the additional specter of going bankrupt through illness.

The Whole Essay Here: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/07/health_care_reform_a_better_plan_97804.html
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 09:08 am
Quote:
Is It 2012 Already?
(Brad Jackson, CBS News, August 6, 2009)

There are a whopping 1189 days until the 2012 election, but you wouldn't know it by looking at the moves of GOP presidential hopefuls. Tim Pawlenty, Mitt Romney, Mike Huckabee, Sarah Palin and other Republicans looking to oust Barack Obama are already lining up staff, raising money, building networks of supporters, and helping fellow politicians as they lay the groundwork for the next battle for the White House. In fact, you have to look no further than the hottest policy issue of the moment - healthcare reform - for signs of the early struggle for Republican constituencies.

This week, Pawlenty and Romney fought over the best method for reforming our nation's healthcare system, each presenting competing ideas, each taking a slight swipe at the other along the way. Pawlenty, the outgoing Governor of Minnesota, trumpeted his state's plan where state employees, "can choose any clinic available to them in the health-care network they've selected," of course those options that are more costly incur higher out of pocket expenses. He also took a stab at Romney's home state of Massachusetts where the former Governor enacted a state-wide insurance system aimed at covering nearly every citizen. A side effect of this plan has been rapidly rising costs of care in the Bay State, costs that Pawlenty pointed out, mean increased fees and taxes. The Minnesota Governor asked in a Washington Post Op-Ed piece, "Imagine the scope of tax increases, or additional deficit spending, if that approach is utilized for the entire country."

Not to be outdone, Romney responded in his own Op-Ed in USA Today where he insisted that President Obama must "dump the public option." The former Governor also countered Pawlenty's accusations of high cost overruns in the Massachusetts plan saying that the state's costs were "pretty much on target."

Both men are seeking to inject themselves into the nation's heated healthcare debate to garner attention, and establish themselves as credible sources on this issue well before they have to argue and debate it in 2012 primary debates.

Romney has something on his side that Pawlenty does not - name recognition. In spite of his defeat in the 2008 Republican primary to John McCain, Mitt Romney has remained quite popular in Republican circles, speaking to a raucous crowd at CPAC in February and even winning the organizations straw poll for 2012. American Conservative Union chairman David Keene referred to Romney as "one of us" at his CPAC introduction, something that may have been impossible to fathom during a presidential campaign where GOP competitors rolled out YouTube moment after YouTube moment of Romney flip-flopping on issues espoused in earlier campaigns for public office. The former Governor's message that February day was one conservatives to latch on to in the days just after Obama's inauguration: fiscal restraint, America first, and local control. Railing against the early plans for healthcare reform, and imploring Washington to provide a big tax cut for middle income Americans, Romney took the plurality of the votes, winning the straw poll for 2012 ahead of other possible contenders like Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Mike Huckabee and even Pawlenty.

Recent polling shows that Republicans have, unsurprisingly, not yet settled on a favorite. A Gallup poll just a few weeks ago, home of the nation's first caucuses, just about 30 months away, showed Romney leading Palin by five-points, 26 - 21 percent, with former Arkansas Governor and current Fox News host Mike Huckabee in third with 19 percent of the vote. A broader poll done by the Washington Post and ABC News found Huckabee ahead 26 - 21 over Romney with Palin and Gingrich nipping at their heals.

One key factor in the 2012 race that may go unnoticed though is the help that these potential candidates offer to other politicians on the ballot in next year's 2010 elections. Palin, a rock star on the road in 2008 who drew thousands at rallies, has been a much-sought after fundraiser for races across the country. For Congressman, Governors, even those running for State House or State Senate, many conservative Republicans are hoping to get a boost from the Palin effect by having the popular former Governor, who has battled with the liberal media lately, into their state or their district for big and small dollar fundraisers. Palin's ability to garner good will from these candidates and their voters will be invaluable should she come calling a year or so later as her potential campaign for the White House was kicking into high gear.

Palin, Romney, Huckabee and others will use many of the pivotal races next year as a chance to up their name recognition among party leaders in states like Texas where there is both a hotly contested GOP primary for Governor and, soon enough, an open Senate seat. Texas is fertile ground for any Republican looking to run nationally, having provided more than $30 million to GOP presidential candidates alone in 2008. Palin has already announced her endorsement of Texas Governor Rick Perry in his primary battle with sitting U.S. Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, and is "committed to campaigning" for his re-election bid. These campaign stops will allow the former Alaska Governor to make in-roads with Texas grassroots leaders, state Republican organizations, and most importantly - big dollar donors in the Lone Star State.

Look for other aspiring GOPers to follow suit in other state with big 2010 races like Florida, California and Ohio- - all sources of tens of millions in potential campaign donations and growing networks of supporters and grassroots volunteers. Each of the major Republican presidential players don't just work the country raising money for others though, they also seek to fill the tills of their own campaign coffers. Palin has reportedly raised more than $900,000 for her SarahPAC so far in 2009, which is still far behind the more than $1.6 million that Romney has brought in during the same time period. Huckabee trails with just over $300,000 in the bank at this point - and frankly, the organization he's building shows signs of major weakness at this point. One interesting item to watch on Palin's fundraising though is that a surprising 60% of her contributions came in amounts less than $200. That's a good sign as it means she has a broader base of low-dollar donors who she can return to time and time again, a strategy exploited to excellent effect by President Obama his 2008 campaign.

Of course, all these early predictions for a race this far out should be tempered. At this point before the 2008 election Obama wasn't even showing up in polls for the Democratic nomination, and Rudy Giuliani was leading the Republican polls. Both campaigns clearly had a long way to go at that point, one a long way down, and the other all the up to the White House.

As you begin to see the 2010 campaigns kick into high gear after Labor Day with growing amounts of mail, email, phone calls and yes, even TV commercials, keep a close eye on which 2012 hopefuls are backing your candidate for Governor or Senator, or which ones appear on Meet the Press or Fox News Sunday. Even though we are 1189 days away from that 2012 election, right now the groundwork is being laid for an arduous race to come.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 09:17 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Did the European media refer to that as"Colosseum games" and "professional wrestling shows"?


Yes, but I admit that our political culture is getting Americanised - like many other items - more and more. (Though no-one would ever show a photo of any head of state or Prime Minister o rminister or any other person with a Nazi enblem - not because it might be unlawful or fearing the protests of Jewish organisation but because it's really a minimising of the terror done by Nazis.)


By the way: I live in a republic as well. One with a parliamentary democracy.

The UK, for instance, is a monarchy. But democratic. France is a republic, too. As old as the USA, and a democracy.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.12 seconds on 04/04/2025 at 10:02:23