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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 05:25 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
"Don't ask don't tell' was Clinton's conclusion and was upheld by the then Democratically controlled Congress.


This is my point.

That sometimes the majority makes concessions to the minority. I'm sure you like "don't ask don't tell" a lot better than if Clinton had simply made the military open to gays. I'm sure you expect concessions for your views and concerns.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 05:50 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
"Don't ask don't tell' was Clinton's conclusion and was upheld by the then Democratically controlled Congress.


This is my point.

That sometimes the majority makes concessions to the minority. I'm sure you like "don't ask don't tell" a lot better than if Clinton had simply made the military open to gays. I'm sure you expect concessions for your views and concerns.

T
K
O


Not really the same thing. Clinton capitulated to the majority--the majority opinion of the American people, the majority opinion of the military, and the majority opinion of the Congress. If anything, 'don't ask don't tell' was a bone thrown to a relatively small minority in lieu of allowing it nothing at all. Perhaps that could be characterized as a concession, but the reality is that it has seemed to solve an existing problem.

I am a conservative and as such believe in democracy in all things that do not compromise unalienable rights of any person. As such the majority should be able to define the parameters for their part of the world. If the minority finds that to their disliking, they should go someplace to form their own majority and have things pretty much as they want them.

I as an individual have no right to dictate what manner of society I will live in, but as a free person, I do have a vote in that. If a majority agrees with me, my society will be more to my liking. If a majority disagrees with me, then I will be disappointed. One of our unalienable rights, however, is that we have a right to be heard and our grievances seriously considered. To deny the people the opportunity to express their choice makes our government far more authoritarian and far more tyrannical than it was ever intended to be.

So far as opening up access to our own natural resources, a very large majority of Americans want that.

Quote:
McCain has gained some momentum on the energy issue since he first proposed in early June lifting the long-standing ban on offshore oil drilling. Most Americans have responded positively to the idea of offshore drilling which Obama strongly opposed for several weeks. The Democrat now appears to be more supportive of it at least in part because, as the New York Post reported today, "Obama's internal polling shows that he's getting killed on this issue."

A separate Rasmussen Reports survey found that most voters like Obama's proposal for a $1,000 energy credit for working families. But voters are evenly divided on Obama's call for a windfall profits tax on oil companies, perhaps because many fear it will lead to higher gas prices.

Obama's latest proposal -- to draw 70 million barrels of oil from the government's emergency oil stockpile to help bring gas prices down -- is a lot less popular. Only 31% say that $4-a-gallon gas is the kind of emergency that justifies tapping the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, but 57% disagree. LINK


Nobody is saying that we should not also continue to reduce energy consumption when practical to do so or that we shouldn't continue to develop wind, solar, nuclear, and every other possible practical energy source. But there is absolutely no substitute even on the drawing board that will replace petroleum in the near future. Failure to recognize that is short sighted, counter productive, and just plain dumb.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  0  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 03:25 pm
I as an individual have no right to dictate what manner of society I will live in, but as a free person, I do have a vote in that. If a majority agrees with me, my society will be more to my liking. If a majority disagrees with me, then I will be disappointed
Me too but not a compassionate consume-oriented non-entity.
Expose the hypocracy of conservatism please.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 04:15 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
I as an individual have no right to dictate what manner of society I will live in, but as a free person, I do have a vote in that. If a majority agrees with me, my society will be more to my liking. If a majority disagrees with me, then I will be disappointed
Me too but not a compassionate consume-oriented non-entity.
Expose the hypocracy of conservatism please.


Expose the fraud or ignorance of those who, respectively, knowingly or unknowingly, distort what is true conservatism, please.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 04:27 pm
ican - It gets old hearing you and the others make this claim. You need to get with the picture. Conservatism is a unicorn, it's a make-believe thing, and there are plenty of ponies with cardboard horns.

If conservatism is always being "distorted" then it's practical value is crap. You have nobody to blame but yourself. You will time after time continue to support the republicans while claiming to be a conservative.

NEWSFLASH: This means YOU are not conservative. I don't care about your words, I care about your actions, and when you go into the voting both you don't say you are a conservative.

You were doomed to fail when you subscribed to a rigid ideal. That should have been your first clue something was going to be ultimately wrong with it all.

Tape that cardboard horn on tight.
K
O
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  0  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 04:31 pm
Should I?
I am a person who was born in a funny, filthy country and I live in a country not filthy nor funny country where Conservativism is loosing ground.
But I have enough maters about American conservatism.
I am ready to expose those hypocrates with American conservative sources without my faulty English.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 04:36 pm
Not fair TKO. The GOP certainly has been way wide of the conservative mark in recent years--this testified to in my opening post for this thread--but they still support more truly conservative views than do the Democrats who support practically none. So yes, you go with the party that is closest to the ideal and, for a conservative, the GOP is it even though it is far off course.

As for Ican's response to Rama, I didn't comment since I couldn't figure out what the heck Rama was asking. I don't know if Ican knew or it was just a really brave shot in the dark. Smile
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  0  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 04:46 pm
As a strong supporter of non-violence and die hard KarlMarx's view I respect all the other shades of opinion.
My day-to-day engagement is to expose the American political system and not about the innocents..
The so called American conservatism is dead and buries thanks to Bush's gang.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 04:47 pm
If it's so unfair Fox, answer me this:

"Why is there no conservative party?"

If it's such a perfect ideal. It popularity is certainly used by the republicans, so it must have a large following. Why doesn't it have a party?

I just don't see the criticism coming from you at the republicans to support any other conclusion than they are what you want.

If you do believe in conservatism, it's certainly not at the top of your political totem.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 04:50 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
If it's so unfair Fox, answer me this:

"Why is there no conservative party?"

If it's such a perfect ideal. It popularity is certainly used by the republicans, so it must have a large following. Why doesn't it have a party?

I just don't see the criticism coming from you at the republicans to support any other conclusion than they are what you want.

If you do believe in conservatism, it's certainly not at the top of your political totem.

T
K
O


Then using your argument, why is there no liberal party?
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  0  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 04:51 pm
When fascism comes to America, it will be carrying a cross and wrapped in an American flag. -Sinclair Lewis-

EARLY WARNING SIGNS OF FASCISM:
-Powerful and continuing nationalism
-Disdain for human rights
-Identification of enemies as a unifying cause
-Supremacy of the military
-Rampant sexism
-Controlled mass media
-Obsession with national security
-Religion and government intertwined
-Corporate power protected
-Labor power suppressed
-Disdain for intellectuals and the arts
-Obsession with crime and punishment
-Rampant cronyism and corruption
-Fraudulent elections

Sound familiar?
Scary.......
http://www.alternet.org/story/71881/
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:01 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
If it's so unfair Fox, answer me this:

"Why is there no conservative party?"

If it's such a perfect ideal. It popularity is certainly used by the republicans, so it must have a large following. Why doesn't it have a party?

I just don't see the criticism coming from you at the republicans to support any other conclusion than they are what you want.

If you do believe in conservatism, it's certainly not at the top of your political totem.

T
K
O


There IS a Conservative Party - look HERE, as well as numerous think tanks and organizations promoting conservative principles. But like all the other small, narrowly focused political parties--Liberatarians, Greens, Communists, Socialists, Reforms, etc.--they get little media attention and no traction up against the Republicans and Democrats who have controlled the political agenda for more than a century now.

If you haven't seen any criticism of the Republicans coming from me, as well as GOP leaders who stray from the conservative agenda, you flat haven't been reading my posts. On the other hand, I don't recall you ever taking the Democrats to task or seriously criticizing your chosen object of adoration de jour.

This thread was not intended to be about partisanship, however. It was intended to be about clearly identifiable principles that can be supported, defended, and/or criticized in concrete terms.

Those who try to make it into just another President Bush bashing thread or GOP bashing thread simply reinforce the observation, by some, that liberals don't know why they believe what they believe and can neither articulate it nor defend it.

There are thread galore to bash the President and/or the GOP and/or discuss the merits of this candidate or that candidate.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:09 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
If it's so unfair Fox, answer me this:

"Why is there no conservative party?"

If it's such a perfect ideal. It popularity is certainly used by the republicans, so it must have a large following. Why doesn't it have a party?

I just don't see the criticism coming from you at the republicans to support any other conclusion than they are what you want.

If you do believe in conservatism, it's certainly not at the top of your political totem.

T
K
O


Then using your argument, why is there no liberal party?


1) Did I claim to be a liberal?
2) "Progressivism" is probably a better term.
3) Whereas conservatism is rigid, progressivism/liberalism is not. Conservatism is sold as a uniform ideal, a solution.
4) The democrats have become a party representing the dynamic relationship of multiple ideals. A formation of a "liberal party" would only be necessary if the democrats failed to represent or at address liberal ideals.

I'm a moderate centrist. The democrats moved into my neighborhood. I only seem so leftist, because the right has moved even further right.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:11 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
If it's so unfair Fox, answer me this:

"Why is there no conservative party?"

If it's such a perfect ideal. It popularity is certainly used by the republicans, so it must have a large following. Why doesn't it have a party?

I just don't see the criticism coming from you at the republicans to support any other conclusion than they are what you want.

If you do believe in conservatism, it's certainly not at the top of your political totem.

T
K
O


There IS a Conservative Party - look HERE, as well as numerous think tanks and organizations promoting conservative principles. But like all the other small, narrowly focused political parties--Liberatarians, Greens, Communists, Socialists, Reforms, etc.--they get little media attention and no traction up against the Republicans and Democrats who have controlled the political agenda for more than a century now.

If you haven't seen any criticism of the Republicans coming from me, as well as GOP leaders who stray from the conservative agenda, you flat haven't been reading my posts. On the other hand, I don't recall you ever taking the Democrats to task or seriously criticizing your chosen object of adoration de jour.

This thread was not intended to be about partisanship, however. It was intended to be about clearly identifiable principles that can be supported, defended, and/or criticized in concrete terms.

Those who try to make it into just another President Bush bashing thread or GOP bashing thread simply reinforce the observation, by some, that liberals don't know why they believe what they believe and can neither articulate it nor defend it.

There are thread galore to bash the President and/or the GOP and/or discuss the merits of this candidate or that candidate.


That's a British website.
K
O
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  0  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:14 pm
I am not here to expose my ignorance nor to belitle the other view points.

American(USA) has no political views nor any other views.
USA is a country like India or Germany.
Conservatism is dead there.commercialiam prevail.
The politicaL CONSERVATIVES are non-Americans if not
ANTI AMERICANS.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:15 pm
Sorry, picked up the wrong link. HERE
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:32 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Sorry, picked up the wrong link. HERE


I stand corrected Fox, there is in fact a very vacant conservative party in the USA.

I guess it's better to abandon conservatism for republicanism. Hell, it's not me who has to reconcile that vote. I don't envy you. At the end of the day, you have to ask if you are actually conservative or if you're just not ready to admit you're a republican.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  0  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:36 pm
Foxfyre
the link is worthy of rapt attention.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:37 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
If it's so unfair Fox, answer me this:

"Why is there no conservative party?"

If it's such a perfect ideal. It popularity is certainly used by the republicans, so it must have a large following. Why doesn't it have a party?

I just don't see the criticism coming from you at the republicans to support any other conclusion than they are what you want.

If you do believe in conservatism, it's certainly not at the top of your political totem.

T
K
O


Then using your argument, why is there no liberal party?


1) Did I claim to be a liberal?
2) "Progressivism" is probably a better term.
3) Whereas conservatism is rigid, progressivism/liberalism is not. Conservatism is sold as a uniform ideal, a solution.
4) The democrats have become a party representing the dynamic relationship of multiple ideals. A formation of a "liberal party" would only be necessary if the democrats failed to represent or at address liberal ideals.

I'm a moderate centrist. The democrats moved into my neighborhood. I only seem so leftist, because the right has moved even further right.

T
K
O


How have the democrats become a party representing the dynamic relationship of multiple ideals? And how is Conservatism so rigid?

Let's test it:

Please give your best paragraph describing what the progressive Democrat sees as the best way to improve education.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:50 pm
Quote:

http://americanconservativeparty.org/?q=node/522
MISSION STATEMENT OF THE AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE PARTY

The American Conservative Party's mission is to promote and protect individual rights and freedoms as set forth in the United States Constitution, and to limit the scope of government to the authority set forth in the same.

Our efforts will be focused on building and leading opposition to intrusive government agencies and policies at all levels (federal/state/local); promoting initiatives and ideas that address issues via the private sector; and supporting candidates that understand the primary purpose of government is to protect its citizens from foreign threats, not the individual from himself.
0 Replies
 
 

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