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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 08:46 am
@H2O MAN,
The US income tax is also "voluntary", is that what she means?
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 09:09 am
@farmerman,


Still in a fog after your typical weekend?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 09:22 am
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:

okie wrote:

I did not misread what you wrote. I agree, every person's experience shapes their beliefs, but does that make us think our judgement is superior to others based upon our race, as Sotomayer apparently does? Does it, ci, answer the question.

If she was a white person that said that, she would not have made it to first base, not even out of the batters box, and you know it.

The emphasis of her statement is on "experience" not on race. She didn't say that Latinas are smarter/superior to white males. Your offense to her statement is overblown.

If I said that a blind person probably knows batter about the experience of being blind than a person who is not, am I saying that blind people are superior? Are you offended that someone thinks they understand blindness better than you because you've closed your eyes before?

T
K
O

The point is, Sotomayer does not now think a wise Latina woman can make better decisions, because she knows it is a racial biased statement. However, she is on record for saying that in the past. So which does she believe, what she said when her guard was down, or what she says now when her guard is not doswn, when she knows she has lots to lose by stating her beliefs? I think not only her racial beliefs are on trial, but her honesty as well.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 09:23 am
@okie,
okie wrote:


The point is, Sotomayer does not now think a wise Latina woman can make better decisions, because she knows it is a racial biased statement. However, she is on record for saying that in the past. So which does she believe, what she said when her guard was down, or what she says now when her guard is not down, when she knows she has lots to lose by stating her beliefs? I think not only her racial beliefs are on trial, but her honesty as well.


Bravo!
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 09:25 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

The US income tax is also "voluntary", is that what she means?


Maybe if I typed more slowly, the difference between voluntary contributions and taxes that Americans are required to pay would not be so difficult to understand? (Though I think Ican is correct in his observation that liberals aren't as dense as they pretend, but they have to pretend or else they lose their 'liberal' badge.)

But maybe we can agree that I choose how much I put in the Salvation Army kettle or pitch in the collection plate at church or enter into the check that goes to St. Judes or Boys Ranch or the local homeless shelter? I can also choose to contribute nothing at all. That is what freedom looks like.

We also need to agree that I can also choose to pay more in taxes than is required, and the government will happily accept my contribution, but I cannot choose to pay less.

So in the final analysis, it all comes down to what is appropriate for government to do with the taxes it collects.

To pay its bills that are obligations it accrues to operate government? Certainly.

To provide for the common defense? A Constitutional requirement.

To promote the general welfare? In the form of shared infrastructure and necessary services and incentives that benefit all rather than special interest groups, also a Constitutional requirement.

To enrich Paul at the expense of Peter without Peter's consent? Nope. You can't find that anywhere in the Constitution, nor has anybody yet been able to articulate a rationale for how that is moral, ethical, or Constitutionally legal to do.

The Founders would have considered it unethical, illegal, and wrong for your to forcibly take property from me and give it for the benefit of another individual just so you could feel magnanimous and righteous.

They would consider you a great man should you choose to give of your own wealth for the benefit of others, however.

okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 09:25 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
It only has to control those who operate the business and voila!. We have a nice, comfortable, soft facist-socialist system.

When Hitler advocated that, it was called a "Third Way," neither communist or capitalist. It is instead something that takes the best of both, creating something superior. Thats their belief, not mine of course. Its called "change" by Obama. Its not change I can believe in, thats for sure.

And oe has tried his best to convince everyone this type of policy is right wing! He has since more or less given up on that apparently, on the Ruthless Dictator thread that I started. I think what we are observing right before our eyes proves this stuff is clearly leftist, although probably not outright Marxist in extreme, at least not at this point, yet.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 09:29 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:

The Founders would have considered it unethical, illegal, and wrong for your to forcibly take property from me and give it for the benefit of another individual just so you could feel magnanimous and righteous.


Well, it's a good thing that this isn't the reason why we do it, then. We don't help support the poorest members of society ('enrich,' how laughable) so that people will feel good about themselves; we do it because it prevents a significant level of crime and social unrest.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 09:30 am
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:

okie wrote:


The point is, Sotomayer does not now think a wise Latina woman can make better decisions, because she knows it is a racial biased statement. However, she is on record for saying that in the past. So which does she believe, what she said when her guard was down, or what she says now when her guard is not down, when she knows she has lots to lose by stating her beliefs? I think not only her racial beliefs are on trial, but her honesty as well.


Bravo!

Bravo is right! The point is, Sotomayer is free to make Diest's point, to argue his assertion, I would love to have seen that.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 09:32 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

H2O MAN wrote:

okie wrote:


The point is, Sotomayer does not now think a wise Latina woman can make better decisions, because she knows it is a racial biased statement. However, she is on record for saying that in the past. So which does she believe, what she said when her guard was down, or what she says now when her guard is not down, when she knows she has lots to lose by stating her beliefs? I think not only her racial beliefs are on trial, but her honesty as well.


Bravo!

Bravo is right! The point is, Sotomayer is free to make Diest's point, to argue his assertion, I would love to have seen that.


Of course you would. because nothing gets you Conservative's panties in a wad, quite like the implication that White Males may not be the end-all be-all when it comes to intelligence and leadership ability.

Cycloptichorn
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 09:41 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:


panties in a wad


msolga may have an opinion on your use of that phrase...
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 09:42 am
@Cycloptichorn,
She was free to make that argument in the hearings, that Latina women can make better decisions. Why didn't she? We were all waiting for it and hoping she could bestow some of her wisdom upon us.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 09:50 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

She was free to make that argument in the hearings, that Latina women can make better decisions. Why didn't she? We were all waiting for it and hoping she could bestow some of her wisdom upon us.


That's why she didn't do it; don't you understand that?

She's going to get confirmed no matter what you guys think, so why toss a bunch of red meat for you guys to get all foamy at the mouth over? It gains her (and the Dems) nothing to do that at all.

Instead, you can look forward to a few decades of reading her decisions on the Supreme Court; maybe you'll gain some wisdom from those. Won't that be enjoyable?

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 09:54 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Once okie gets misinformation introduced into his brain, it's held there vice-like never to change. Providing him with facts and evidence is useless.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 09:56 am
@cicerone imposter,


At least Okie has a brain.
Something you and Cyclotroll lack.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 10:02 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

She was free to make that argument in the hearings, that Latina women can make better decisions. Why didn't she? We were all waiting for it and hoping she could bestow some of her wisdom upon us.


Yes she was free to do so, and she didn't. In fact she admitted that the phrase was appropriate for the setting and context in which it was given but should not be interpreted as a whole cloth view of her perspective. I don't really have a quarrel with it as a single off-the-cuff remark. I think with my life experience and perspective, I might make better financial or business decisions than somebody who lacked that experience and perspective. I think my life experience and perspective gives me a much clearer view of what government could and should be than those who do not share it.

Sotomayor said all the right things at the hearing. She provided a perspective and mindset as a Supreme Court Justice that we would be thrilled with in any nominee.

Okay, what she said at the hearing doesn't match some of her decisions or what she has said in more narrowly focused settings. But neither would I consider my personal preferences and prejudices to be appropriate if applied in a judicial setting.

So Cyclop is right. She will be confirmed. And she has provided a mountain of very powerful statements in the hearing that she will or will not apply on the bench. If she does, she will be a great judge. It will be a win win for everybody. If she doesn't, then we will have a ton of ammunition to use to convince people they better be careful who they put into power to nominate the next justice for the Supreme Court.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 10:14 am
@Foxfyre,
I think the troubling part of this is that Sotomayer may not have told the truth about what she actually believes in the hearings. She said what she knew she needed to say, to obtain the approval to the court, but their is a disconnect between what she has said in the past, and her past decisions, vs what she is saying now.

I would have no problem with somebody saying their experience brings a perspective that is valuable. However, to make another leap of logic and to claim that she therefore has more ability to interpret the law better, or the constitution better, to make better decisions, I don't buy it, I think that is a racist statement.

Actually, I don't know for sure what kind of a justice she will make, perhaps not real bad, I liked her testimony what I watched of it, to a point, but I also get the feeling that she thinks her heritage and being a woman is mighty important, more important than I think it deserves to be, to make a decent judge. Her decision in the firefighter case is enough to convince me she isn't all that wise, or just, or a good judge of the constitution, not at all. I have not reviewed her history of cases, but count me as a skeptic for sure. I think we will just have to suck it up and figure on confirming her, and save our powder for the next fight.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 10:15 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

I think the troubling part of this is that Sotomayer may not have told the truth about what she actually believes in the hearings. She said what she knew she needed to say, to obtain the approval to the court, but their is a disconnect between what she has said in the past, and her past decisions, vs what she is saying now.


What? Shocking!

I suppose you haven't been paying any attention at all to any other SC justice in what, three decades? None of them tell the truth about how they are going to act while being confirmed, it's all a Kabuki dance for the cameras. I mean, you sure didn't see Roberts and Alito up there saying, "I'm going to side with Corporate interests, with Government interests, with the rich, and with the big guy over the little guy, the individual, the downtrodden - every single case that comes before me." But that's exactly what they have done.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 10:16 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:

She was free to make that argument in the hearings, that Latina women can make better decisions. Why didn't she? We were all waiting for it and hoping she could bestow some of her wisdom upon us.


That's why she didn't do it; don't you understand that?

She's going to get confirmed no matter what you guys think, so why toss a bunch of red meat for you guys to get all foamy at the mouth over? It gains her (and the Dems) nothing to do that at all.

Instead, you can look forward to a few decades of reading her decisions on the Supreme Court; maybe you'll gain some wisdom from those. Won't that be enjoyable?

Cycloptichorn

So you admit she lied in the hearings, just to avoid controversy?
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 10:17 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:

She was free to make that argument in the hearings, that Latina women can make better decisions. Why didn't she? We were all waiting for it and hoping she could bestow some of her wisdom upon us.


That's why she didn't do it; don't you understand that?

She's going to get confirmed no matter what you guys think, so why toss a bunch of red meat for you guys to get all foamy at the mouth over? It gains her (and the Dems) nothing to do that at all.

Instead, you can look forward to a few decades of reading her decisions on the Supreme Court; maybe you'll gain some wisdom from those. Won't that be enjoyable?

Cycloptichorn

So you admit she lied in the hearings, just to avoid controversy?


Yes - they all 'lie' at the hearings, the hearings are meaningless... see my above post.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 10:20 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclops rolls out the "Everybody does it" argument again. I suppose if Obama is caught taking bribes and arm twisting, blackmailing people, we will see more of this argument again. It was used almost daily while Clinton was running and in office, so why am I not surprised? This is liberal politics, out of the playbook.

I think most dictators around the world like that argument as well, its just necessary to get things done. Party trumps right and wrong. The end justifies the means. But it only applies to one party, right cyclops?
 

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