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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 02:14 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
I wonder if you could provide a single piece of evidence, showing that Palin 'understands the Constitution.

I wonder if you could provide a single piece of evidence, showing that Palin DOES NOT'understands the Constitution.


Here is some evidence of Palin's lack of understanding set forth in Glenn Greenwald's column:

Sarah Palin speaks on the First Amendment
(updated below - Update II - Update III)

Somehow, in Sarah Palin's brain, it's a threat to the First Amendment when newspapers criticize her negative attacks on Barack Obama....

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/10/31/palin/index.html


ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 02:15 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra posted:

Palin's Book Deal

Quote:

Governor Sarah Palin is the latest politician to mint a sweet book deal. She's signed a deal with Harper Collins who will co-release the book with its subsidiary, Christian publishing house Zondervan (the company that published Rick Warren's mega-seller "The Purpose-Driven Life"). Reporters have been chattering about the inevitability of a Palin book for months. The deal was negotiated by DC lawyer Robert Barnett, whose literary client list includes Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. The financial arrangements haven't been disclosed, but your Gaggler is thinking big bucks. (And probably more than Bush scored.)


I hope Palins book is successful enough to help her pay off the debts foisted on her by false Statist Democrat accusations.

By the way, Obama wrote a couple of books before he ran for president! Was that in your mind also a sin?
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 02:19 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Cicerone, what evidence do you have to support your statement that I "don't understand the English language, know how to read, or comprehend what read," AND you cicerone do understand the English language, know how to read, or comprehend what you read?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 02:24 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:
By the way, Obama wrote a couple of books before he ran for president! Was that in your mind also a sin?


Sarah Palin may write as many books as her heart desires. She quit her job as governor to cash in on her celebrity. She could not handle criticism, although she has no problem dishing it out. She's a quitter.

Obama is not a quitter.

Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 02:30 pm
Cheating SC gov says God will make him better

Quote:
COLUMBIA, S.C. " South Carolina Gov. Mark Sanford, still clinging to office after admitting to an extramarital affair, wrote in an opinion piece released Sunday that God will change him so he can emerge from the scandal a more humble and effective leader....

"It's in the spirit of making good from bad that I am committing to you and the larger family of South Carolinians to use this experience to both trust God in his larger work of changing me, and from my end, to work to becoming a better and more effective leader," he wrote....

"His love letters show he's a helluva writer," said Sen. Jake Knotts, R-West Columbia, a frequent adversary who made public that Sanford was missing. Sanford worked to get him ousted in the last election. "He's a helluva writer and a promise maker, but he doesn't keep promises to the state of South Carolina like he doesn't keep promises to his wife."

Senate Minority Leader John Land, also frequently at odds with Sanford, doubts the governor can change or knows how to compromise.

"If he didn't get his way, he'd take his balls and go home, so he left a lot of things on the table," the Manning Democrat said.


Perhaps Sanford will get a multi-million dollar book deal and quit the governorship, ALSO.


0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 02:41 pm
Poor, Persecuted Sarah Palin

Excerpt:

Quote:
When Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin announced her resignation two weeks ago it was after a series of strange, petty bouts with her detractors. Many "frivolous ethics violations" had been alleged against her, she noted. David Letterman had told an ugly joke about her daughter. A blogger had posted something that was probably not true. Someone had photoshopped a radio talker's face onto a picture of her baby -- a "malicious desecration" of the image, in the words of Ms. Palin's spokeswoman.

Team Palin got duly indignant at each of these. They took special, detailed offense. They issued statements magnifying their wounds. And, finally, the governor resigned her office, a good woman cruelly wronged.

The culture's fantastically unfair treatment of middle Americans is the main lesson that many will no doubt take away from Ms. Palin's time in the national spotlight. In fact, it may be the only lesson. We don't really know where the former vice presidential candidate stands on most issues. We know only that she is constantly being maligned, that when we turn on the TV and see her fair face beaming, we are about to hear that some liberal someone has slurred this noble lady yet again.

Indeed, if political figures stand for ideas, victimization is what Ms. Palin is all about. It is her brand, her myth. Ronald Reagan stood tall. John McCain was about service. Barack Obama has hope. Sarah Palin is a collector of grievances. She runs for high office by griping.

This is no small thing, mind you. The piling-up of petty complaints is an important aspect of conservative movement culture.


H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 02:55 pm
@Debra Law,


Quit it DL, you're just jealous!
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 02:55 pm
@Debra Law,
Yes, Palin misunderstands the portion of the 1st Amendment I underlined in the quote below. But that is insufficient evidence to show she doesn't understand the whole Constitution.

However, a large majority of Statists misunderstand the part of the 1st Amendment I boldfaced below. Does that in your mind mean they do not understand the whole Constitution? Statists think the part I bold faced below prohibits people reading the bible in public schools or people placing religous artifacts on public property, or people wearing religous artifacts on public property.

Quote:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 03:02 pm


It's crystal clear that PrezBO has a big problem understanding and accepting the US Constitution, so let's just give SP a pass.

At least Sarah Palin understands that the US is a Constitutional Republic, something PrezBO will never mention or accept.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 03:46 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

okie, look at what governments actually do, they grow stuff, build stuff mine stuff, produce stuff, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER BUSINESS.

Not really, Monterey, I am surprised you actually believe that. Most of what the government does is paper push, which creates no wealth, none. I will say that a very very small percentage of what the government does goes towards creating wealth, but very very little, the vast majority consumes it. In communist countries where the government oversees almost everything, some wealth is created, but at such a low rate that it is not uncommon to see consumption of basic needs to far outstrip creation, so that people end up starving to death and eventually the societies collapse.
Quote:
And moreover,a large part of what they do is actuially contracted to private business, which wouldn't be doing anywhere near so well without those government bucks coming in: who built the planes? Douglass, Boeing, Curtiss-Wright. Who built the tanks? GM. Who built the interstates? Or the Big Dig? Private contractors. Who does the medicine for Medicare? Private doctors. Private hospitals.
I'm glad you mention that. Government does engage in those activities, and where the government's very limited scope mandates those activities, such as national defense, it gets done, but in a much less efficient manner simply because the inefficiencies of government tend to siphon off alot of the money. That is precisely why it is wiser to leave to private enterprise those activities that are not mandated by government for government to do.
Quote:
You guys seem to think the money government gets just disappears down some black hole.

Alot of it does. It is consumed by the inefficiencies, paperwork, bureaucratic waste, lethargy, and outrright corruption inherent in the government.
Quote:
It goes to economic activities very similar to what private companies are doing--producing goods and services and paying people to produce them, which produces a multiplier effect, just like any other dollar spent in the economy. The difference is the government can do it on a much larger scale, and can put off paying for some of the costs until the economy is running well again.Which is why stimulus spending can right the economy the Bush era sabotaged.

When the government does those things, it does it a much less rate of efficiency and higher amount of waste. Putting off paying for costs and overrunning costs are another way of saying there is very poor accountability and irresponsible management of those activities, leading to more debt and potential fiscal collapse. That is precisely what we are up against now, and Obama wants to multiply the current situation into something many times worse.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 04:03 pm
@Debra Law,
I think Palin did not say her free speech rights had been violated. She is instead voicing the fear that at some point in the future the attitudes of today may lead to abridgement of her rights to free speech. I think I understand her point pretty well. Consider for a moment that hate speech may be a crime or could be a crime in certain situations, if not now, but as proposed. Also, Democrats are actively considering some form of the fairness doctrine, or some alternative to that policy, as a means to limit free speech on the airwaves. There have been suggestions that criticism of Obama or other liberals is hate speech. Actually Bill Clinton suggested that very idea following the Oklahoma City bombing, that conservative pundits encouraged it by their constant criticism of politicians. It is not a big leap to fear that Democrats and liberals would like to limit any criticism of them. In fact, Obama pretty much refuses to talk to certain networks or pundits, simply because he doesn't like them. That is his full constitutional right and privilege, but what you have in Obama is an attitude that the opposition does not exist, they should have no voice, as he makes snide comments about that from time to time. There is no doubt in my mind that Obama would love to not only ignore the opposition, but limit it. He does have a dictator mentality.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 05:35 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
Quote:
She is instead voicing the fear that at some point in the future the attitudes of today may lead to abridgement of her rights to free speech.


Not to worry, fear-mongerer; only Bush broke both domestic and international laws against "our Constitutional rights." Illegal wiretaps, over-riding Habeas Corpus, and torture are all against the laws of our country. You didn't seem to mind when Bush did it then lied, but you imagine the worst from Obama without any proof, evidence or any suggestion from what he and congress has done during the first six months. Your creative imagination is your worst enemy; it makes you look stupid.

0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 06:17 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:
She quit her job as governor to cash in on her celebrity. She could not handle criticism, although she has no problem dishing it out. She's a quitter.

This statement of yours is a falsity as obnoxious as cat puke.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 06:19 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:
Obama is not a quitter.

Yes, he is a quitter. He has quit honoring his oath to support the Constitution. I want him to quit that.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 06:29 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:
Debra Law wrote:
Obama is not a quitter.

Yes, he is a quitter. He has quit honoring his oath to support the Constitution. I want him to quit that.

Dude, seriously...

What makes you such a hateful person? This kind of obsession makes you look ridiculous. If you can't form sound thoughtful/rational thoughts, I'm overcome with concern for your well being in real life.

It's truly sad, and here's the problem: I talk with plently of people who have different political ideas than me, but only such a rare few (like yourself) lack the one thing needed at the end of the conversation. That thing is sincerity. When I talk to my friend Alex, we disagree, but I understand that he wants good things; he wants a good government--we just see the means to the end differently. You simply see a different end, and I struggle to understand how you think you are meant to be taken seriously or sincerely.

T
K
O
ican711nm
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 07:23 pm
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:
When I talk to my friend Alex, we disagree, but I understand that he wants good things; he wants a good government--we just see the means to the end differently. You simply see a different end, and I struggle to understand how you think you are meant to be taken seriously or sincerely.

I perceive Statist government as bad government. I see Obama pursuing a Statist government. Therefore, I seriously and sincerely see and say Obama is pursuing bad government.

Your libelous characterization of me is typical of Statists who realize they are pursuing a form of government that will win them more power over more people. I think America's former Constitutional government is good government and far superior to statism. I want America's Constitutional government restored.
Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=statism&x=24&y=9
Main Entry: stat·ism
...
: concentration of all economic controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized government ...

Here is only some of my evidence that Obama is pursuing a Statist government:
http://obama.3cdn.net/8335008b3be0e6391e_foi8mve29.pdf
BARACK OBAMA’S PLAN TO STIMULATE THE ECONOMY--see the explanations of each stimulus category, I thru V.
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/STIMULUS_FINAL_0217.html
GETTING TO $787 BILLION WITH BARACK STIMULUS--sort by amount of spending, high to low.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf
BUDGET HISTORY--Table 2.1, page 31.

ican711nm
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 07:43 pm
@Debra Law,
The Statists vociferously criticized those who revealed the truth about Obama's associations, speeches, and other actions. Now the Statists poke fun at Sarah Palin for her complaints about the Statists' slanders and libels of Sarah Palin. Gad, what hateful frauds they are.
Quote:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124761930140242533.html
...
In an essay in The Weekly Standard that was written before Ms. Palin's celebrated debut in St. Paul, William Kristol somehow already knew that liberals "will ridicule her and patronize her. They will distort her words and caricature her biography. They will appeal, sometimes explicitly, to anti-small town and anti-religious prejudice." And all this contempt will serve an important propaganda purpose, he continued, with Ms. Palin becoming a "powerful symbol" for "lots of Americans who are told every day that to be even a bit conservative or Christian or old-fashioned is bad form."

Mr. Kristol's magazine has beat the persecution drum ever since. Its current issue features a cover story about Ms. Palin's suffering by Matthew Continetti, who is actually said to be writing a book titled, "The Persecution of Sarah Palin." In the course of Mr. Continetti's essay he admits to collecting insults of Ms. Palin, which he stores in a computer file that he says is seven pages long.

My advice to Mr. Continetti: Put your insult collection aside for a moment and ask instead why people like Ms. Palin savor insults in the first place. The answer may not endear you to Weekly Standard readers, but it will take you a lot further toward understanding the world we live in.


cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 07:52 pm
@ican711nm,
Ms Palin is already seen as a small town girl out of her league in national politics. (My brother was mayor of a city in California with a population bigger than the whole state of Alaska.) Nobody has to poke fun at somebody that does it all on her own.

Too many gaffs during a presidential campaign is the real comedy; she never felt out of her league, but the majority of Americans knew she was a fake. I'm not sure how anybody can support a presidential candidate who doesn't even know the responsibilities of a VP. That's something all American citizens should know from grade school. Only the same people who still supports GWBush is also her supporters.

I'm sure nobody has to remind you where GWBush sits in the rank of past presidents.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 07:55 pm
Quote:
A Defense of Sotomayor's "Wise Latina" Remark - with No Rewording Required
(By BEN BRATMAN, FindLaw Commentary, July 17, 2009)

As Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor's confirmation hearings have progressed, senators and the media have focused heavily on one much-hyped comment. Famously, Sotomayor said that she hopes that "a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life."

The comment reflects Sotomayor's apparent belief that a judge's ethnic background, gender, and life experiences affect"and can even enhance"her decision-making. In the political realm, Sotomayor's comment has received nary an endorsement, and has in fact elicited harsh criticism from Republicans as a moniker of identity politics. Meanwhile, Democrats in the Senate and President Obama have distanced themselves from the comment, suggesting the judge made a poor choice of words.

Thinking about Sotomayor's remark from a legal perspective, however, I am not troubled by it. (Nor do I find it to be merely a "rhetorical flourish," as Judge Sotomayor herself characterized it at the hearings.) Rather, I am intrigued by it " as I will explain.

I teach a law school course on a subject"employment discrimination"in which gender and ethnicity matter, and in which the unique perspectives of women and of Latinas (as well as of African Americans, Asian Americans, etc.) matter. It is a subject in which I encounter and teach federal appeals court decisions by white judges and male judges who are doing their best to adopt the perspective of an employee who is a woman and/or a member of an ethnic minority.

These cases"concerning alleged harassment in the workplace because of sex, race, or national origin"illustrate the relevance and importance of Sotomayor's remark. They also counsel against superficial rejection of that remark on the grounds that personal experiences categorically can never play a role in judging.

To see how Sotomayor's remark relates to the federal law of discrimination, it is necessary first to understand the basic framework of that law. Under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, it is unlawful for an employer to create or allow a work environment that is hostile or abusive for employees because of their race, color, sex, national origin, or religion. Most harassment cases fall under the sex category, and most sex harassment cases involve male employees"often supervisors"subjecting one or more female employees to various sex-based or sexual comments or conduct. However, there are also large numbers of race, national origin and religion harassment cases. (In all categories, there are also occasional "reverse" cases brought by men, Caucasians, Christians, etc.)

Title VII protection is triggered only where an employee's terms or conditions of employment have been altered, and that threshold is easily met in a classic case of termination or demotion. However, in a hostile work environment case, there must be a test for courts to apply to determine if the alleged harassment had a sufficiently negative effect on the work environment. It cannot be enough for an employee simply to allege she found her work environment altered by, for example, a few sex-related jokes told by her supervisor.

The Supreme Court established that test in a landmark 1986 case, Meritor Savings Bank v. Vinson. Under the test, the question of whether the harassment case will go to a jury rests in the trial judge's assessment of the conduct at issue and all the circumstances surrounding it. If"and only if"the judge believes the conduct was sufficiently severe or pervasive that a reasonable person in the plaintiff's position would find the conduct hostile and abusive, the case can go to a jury. If the losing party appeals, a panel of three appellate judges will apply the same test with a fresh set of eyes.

This test is objective, calling upon the perspective of a "reasonable person," in the sense that the plaintiff's bare opinion that she personally found the conduct hostile or abusive will not suffice. This is because Title VII does not protect against isolated or merely offensive jokes, epithets, insults, romantic advances, etc., on the theory that they do not adequately alter the terms and conditions of employment (i.e., they do not make the work environment hostile enough).

Despite the objective nature of the test, the Court wrote in Harris v. Forklift Systems Inc. that the judge must consider the plaintiff's position and take into account "all the circumstances." As Justice Scalia wrote for the Court in Oncale v. Sundowner Offshore Serv., Inc., the impact of workplace behavior "often depends on a constellation of surrounding circumstances, expectations, and relationships which are not fully captured by a simple recitation of the words used or the physical acts performed."

How do these legal standards relate to how we might evaluate Judge Sotomayor's comment? The answer is that judges are asked by the law to take on the perspective of particular employees, and it is possible that judges who share certain characteristics with those employees will be more likely to accurately make that imaginative leap.

For instance, to invoke the facts of a real-life case, how does a judge assess whether a reasonable person in the position of a female employee would find the work environment hostile or abusive where her male supervisor occasionally called her a "dumb c*nt," suggested that she gave oral sex for money, and commented on her anatomy and on his desire to have sex with her? Presuming that the number of incidents is not too few or too many to make the case an easy call on the grounds of pervasiveness, the severity of the conduct should depend in part on the plaintiff's female gender. Given, among other things, the historical subjugation of women, their continuing struggles to advance in the workplace, the rampant sexual objectification of women in society, and their greater susceptibility to sexual assault, a reasonable woman in this position will likely react differently than a reasonable man in this position facing similar on-the-job slurs. Hence, it is fair to ask whether a female judge would likely do a better job making the call as to whether to send this case to a jury, or dismiss it, than a male judge would.

Similarly, how does a judge assess whether a reasonable person in the position of a Puerto Rican employee would find her work environment hostile or abusive where her white supervisor occasionally called her a "dumb spic," and once said she should go on welfare "like the rest of the spics"? Again presuming the number of incidents is not too many or too few to make the case an easy call on the ground of pervasiveness, the severity of the conduct should depend in part on the plaintiff's Puerto Rican origin. Given, among other things, the historical segregation of ethnic minorities, their continuing struggles to advance in the workplace, and the denigrating stereotypes they endure, a reasonable Puerto Rican in this position would likely react differently than a reasonable white American in this position facing similar on-the-job slurs. And again, it is therefore fair to ask whether a Puerto Rican or otherwise Hispanic judge would likely do a better job making a call in this case than a non-Puerto Rican judge would.

These two factual scenarios, combined together, are what a Puerto Rican woman named Jenice Torres experienced while employed by New York University in the early 1990s. She sued in federal district court for racial and sexual harassment and the trial judge dismissed her claim. Torres then appealed to the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, the court on which Judge Sotomayor now serves. In a 1997 holding in Torres v. Pisano, the Second Circuit reversed, deeming the conduct Torres endured sufficient to go to a jury.

Sotomayor herself did not serve on that three-judge panel; she joined the court one year later. Yet the unanimous opinion written by her current colleague, Judge Guido Calabresi, an Italian-born male, illustrates what Sotomayor is getting at in her controversial remark. (Calabresi's colleagues on the panel were also white males"Jon O. Newman and Denis R. Hurley, a district judge sitting by designation).

In the opinion, while noting the frequency with which Torres's supervisor made some of the harassing comments, Calabresi also specifically designates the relevant inquiry as whether a "reasonable woman" would find the sex-based conduct hostile, and whether a "reasonable Puerto Rican" would find the race-based conduct hostile. The opinion cites numerous cases holding that the test indeed requires consideration of a reasonable person with the same fundamental characteristics of the plaintiff, including gender and race. Without explaining how the race or sex of Ms. Torres affected his or the other judges' decision-making, Calabresi goes on to conclude that Torres meets the test and, more than that, has a "strong" case"not a dismissable one.

Bearing in mind that Title VII does not prohibit merely offensive, inappropriate, or boorish behavior, what is it that led Calabresi and his two colleagues, both also white males, to conclude so confidently that the conduct at issue met the test? The racial and sexual epithets were uttered very frequently, and that cannot be discounted. Still, one can and should ask whether Calabresi's experience as an Italian immigrant who came to America to escape Fascism colored his perspective on the facts or enhanced his ability to put himself in Ms. Torres's shoes. In addition, did Calabresi's exposure or lack of exposure to female colleagues or Puerto Rican colleagues on the bench affect his thinking about the case? As men who are not Puerto Rican, yet were trying to assess the response of a reasonable female Puerto Rican, did the three judges overcompensate? In other similar cases where plaintiffs did not prevail, did white or male judges not compensate enough?

A recently published empirical study of racial harassment cases by Professor Pat Chew of the University of Pittsburgh School of Law and Professor Robert Kelley of Carnegie Mellon University Tepper School of Business, reveals that, even controlling for variables, the race of the judge affects outcomes in workplace racial harassment cases. One white trial judge in the District of Maine"in deciding the 1991 racial harassment case Harris v. Int'l Paper Co., which was brought by an African-American"noted that, "because Plaintiffs are black, the appropriate standard is that of a reasonable black person, as that can be best understood and given meaning by a white judge." (emphasis added). Indeed, it is hard to dispute the difficulty inherent in a member of one race trying to place himself or herself in the shoes of a member of another. The same can be said with respect to gender.

Which brings us back to the question raised by Judge Sotomayor's remark: In the Torres case or any other similar case decided by white, male judges, would a female and/or Puerto Rican judge, perhaps even Sonia Sotomayor herself, have more often than not reached a "better" conclusion?

The answer is debatable, but suggesting that the answer might be yes is hardly grounds for disqualification from the Supreme Court.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 08:00 pm
@wandeljw,
As I've been saying all along, Sotomajor's experiences will influence her judgment on the bench as does all judges (white, black, brown or yellow) who has any past experience. We are the product of our experiences, and anybody who refutes this thesis just doesn't know anything about human behavior. Since when does a candidate for judge have to ignore who they are?

Conservatives are too stupid to understand this very simple concept. The basic principle that judges must follow is the law; how they interpret the law will be based on their education and all of their experiences.

There is no way to erase their life experiences.

 

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