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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 08:42 am
@parados,
Quote:

http://law.jrank.org/pages/7563/Income-Tax-History.html
Income tax first appeared in the United States in 1862, during the Civil War. At that time only about one percent of the population was required to pay the tax. A flat-rate income tax was imposed in 1867. The income tax was repealed in its entirety in 1872.
Income tax was a rallying point for the Populist party in 1892, and had enough support two years later that Congress passed the Income Tax Act of 1894. The tax at that time was two percent on individual incomes in excess of $4,000, which meant that it reached only the wealthiest members of the population. The Supreme Court struck down the tax, holding that it violated the constitutional requirement that direct taxes be apportioned among the states by population (POLLOCK V. FARMERS' LOAN & TRUST, 158 U.S. 601, 15 S. Ct. 912, 39 L. Ed. 1108 [1895]). After many years of debate and compromise, the SIXTEENTH AMENDMENT to the Constitution was ratified in 1913, providing Congress with the power to lay and collect taxes on income without apportionment among the states. The objectives of the income tax were the equitable distribution of the tax burden and the raising of revenue.

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 11:04 am
I posted this on the Global Warming thread too, and am including it here because it is this kind of language that really puts up red flags and sets off all kinds of alarm bells to most MACs:

The real agenda re AGW appears more and more obvious to me. Does anybody else find this alarming?

Quote:
Gore: U.S. Climate Bill Will Help Bring About 'Global Governance'
Climate Depot Exclusive

Friday, July 10, 2009By Marc Morano " Climate Depot
Former Vice President Al Gore declared that the Congressional climate bill will help bring about “global governance.”

“I bring you good news from the U.S., “Gore said on July 7, 2009 in Oxford at the Smith School World Forum on Enterprise and the Environment, sponsored by UK Times.

“Just two weeks ago, the House of Representatives passed the Waxman-Markey climate bill,” Gore said, noting it was “very much a step in the right direction.” President Obama has pushed for the passage of the bill in the Senate and attended a G8 summit this week where he agreed to attempt to keep the Earth's temperatures from rising more than 2 degrees C.

Gore touted the Congressional climate bill, claiming it “will dramatically increase the prospects for success” in combating what he sees as the “crisis” of man-made global warming.

“But it is the awareness itself that will drive the change and one of the ways it will drive the change is through global governance and global agreements.” (Editor's Note: Gore makes the “global governance” comment at the 1min. 10 sec. mark in this UK Times video.)

Gore's call for “global governance” echoes former French President Jacques Chirac's call in 2000.

On November 20, 2000, then French President Chirac said during a speech at The Hague that the UN's Kyoto Protocol represented "the first component of an authentic global governance."

“For the first time, humanity is instituting a genuine instrument of global governance,” Chirac explained. “From the very earliest age, we should make environmental awareness a major theme of education and a major theme of political debate, until respect for the environment comes to be as fundamental as safeguarding our rights and freedoms. By acting together, by building this unprecedented instrument, the first component of an authentic global governance, we are working for dialogue and peace,” Chirac added.

Former EU Environment Minister Margot Wallstrom said, "Kyoto is about the economy, about leveling the playing field for big businesses worldwide." Canadian Prime Minster Stephen Harper once dismissed UN's Kyoto Protocol as a “socialist scheme.”

'Global Carbon Tax' Urged at UN Meeting

In addition, calls for a global carbon tax have been urged at recent UN global warming conferences. In December 2007, the UN climate conference in Bali, urged the adoption of a global carbon tax that would represent “a global burden sharing system, fair, with solidarity, and legally binding to all nations.”

“Finally someone will pay for these [climate related] costs,” Othmar Schwank, a global tax advocate, said at the 2007 UN conference after a panel titled “A Global CO2 Tax.”

http://www.climatedepot.com/a/1893/Gore-US-Climate-Bill-Will-Help-Bring-About-Global-Governance

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 11:36 am
And since I don't think this would generate enough interest to merit its own thread, I am posting it here. It isn't entirely off topic as it does relate to Constitutional integrity as well as providing an illustration of how a rogue President can be removed--something Ican has been addressing.

Miguel Estrada, a constitutional expert in his own right, has some interesting observations about the current bruhaha in Honduras. It is also of interest, at least to me, why our President/administration is supporting Zelaya so passionately.

Quote:
Honduras' non-coup
Under the country's Constitution, the ouster of President Manuel Zelaya was legal.
By Miguel A. Estrada
July 10, 2009

Honduras, the tiny Central American nation, had a change of leaders on June 28. The country's military arrested President Manuel Zelaya -- in his pajamas, he says -- and put him on a plane bound for Costa Rica. A new president, Roberto Micheletti, was appointed. Led by Cuba and Venezuela (Sudan and North Korea were not immediately available), the international community swiftly condemned this "coup."

Something clearly has gone awry with the rule of law in Honduras -- but it is not necessarily what you think. Begin with Zelaya's arrest. The Supreme Court of Honduras, as it turns out, had ordered the military to arrest Zelaya two days earlier. A second order (issued on the same day) authorized the military to enter Zelaya's home to execute the arrest. These orders were issued at the urgent request of the country's attorney general. All the relevant legal documents can be accessed (in Spanish) on the Supreme Court's website. They make for interesting reading.

What you'll learn is that the Honduran Constitution may be amended in any way except three. No amendment can ever change (1) the country's borders, (2) the rules that limit a president to a single four-year term and (3) the requirement that presidential administrations must "succeed one another" in a "republican form of government."

In addition, Article 239 specifically states that any president who so much as proposes the permissibility of reelection "shall cease forthwith" in his duties, and Article 4 provides that any "infraction" of the succession rules constitutes treason. The rules are so tight because these are terribly serious issues for Honduras, which lived under decades of military rule.

As detailed in the attorney general's complaint, Zelaya is the type of leader who could cause a country to wish for a Richard Nixon. Earlier this year, with only a few months left in his term, he ordered a referendum on whether a new constitutional convention should convene to write a wholly new constitution. Because the only conceivable motive for such a convention would be to amend the un-amendable parts of the existing constitution, it was easy to conclude -- as virtually everyone in Honduras did -- that this was nothing but a backdoor effort to change the rules governing presidential succession. Not unlike what Zelaya's close ally, Hugo Chavez, had done in Venezuela. . . . .

MORE HERE:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-estrada10-2009jul10,0,1570598.story
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 11:39 am
@Foxfyre,
realistically, any democratic country (and a few who are not) has to respond in the negative to a coup, i agree however that the circumstances of the leaders removal do appear to be above board and legal under the honduran constitution
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 11:46 am
@Foxfyre,
Yeah fox. Agenda exposed. Gore wants to use AGW policies to rule the earth! Then the GALAXY!!!

Hahahahaha

Are you daft?

T
K
O
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 12:00 pm
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

realistically, any democratic country (and a few who are not) has to respond in the negative to a coup, i agree however that the circumstances of the leaders removal do appear to be above board and legal under the honduran constitution


That's what I think too, at least if Estrada is correct and I would bet somebody a really good hamburger that he is. But the U.S. Mainstream Media is still mostly projecting it as a coup or an illegal deposing of a lawfully elected leader. Estrada says no--not a coup, and not unlawful.

So for an Administration who tells us that they can't 'meddle' in the affairs of a sovereign nation like Iran, how do they justify 'meddling' in the affairs of Honduras? And why would they? Surely they have the same information that Estrada does.

Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 12:51 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

That's what I think too, at least if Estrada is correct and I would bet somebody a really good hamburger that he is. But the U.S. Mainstream Media is still mostly projecting it as a coup or an illegal deposing of a lawfully elected leader. Estrada says no--not a coup, and not unlawful.


He didn't tell, however, why Zelaya wasn't simply charged with violating the constitution and put on trial.
If coups become accepted instead of democratic, legal procedures .... well, we have had such.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 01:42 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
But he said it wasn't a coup. The Attorney General had halted the illegal referendum and impounded the illegal ballots and Zelaya ordered it to go forward anyway in defiance of Honduran law.. It was then that the Supreme Court ordered the military to remove him. If your high officials ordered your Head of State to cease and desist in an illegal act and she refused, would they not order her removed from her position? That wouldn't be a coup either.
parados
 
  3  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 01:45 pm
@Foxfyre,
Well Dang.. If he said it wasn't then I guess we should accept him at his word.
Laughing

Ahmadinejad said it was a valid election in Iran too. I guess we should accept his word as well.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  3  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 01:50 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

And since I don't think this would generate enough interest to merit its own thread, I am posting it here. It isn't entirely off topic as it does relate to Constitutional integrity as well as providing an illustration of how a rogue President can be removed--something Ican has been addressing.


I do not remember Ican describing our current or past presidents as a "rogue" presidents. How do you define the term rogue?

Ican has never identified any law, constitutional or otherwise, that President Obama has violated. Ican simply disagrees with a progressive tax system instituted by Congress. It is irrational for Ican to believe that removing a president from office will resolve his disagreement with our federal tax laws. Regardless of who occupies the White House, the IRS will continue to enforce our federal tax laws. Ican may lobby Congress to change our federal tax laws or Ican may challenge the constitutionality of our federal tax laws in federal court. It is within the sole province of our courts to determine whether acts of Congress are constitutional.

I do not believe that Ican has ever called for the military to arrest President Obama and to send him into exile. Have you Ican?


cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 02:12 pm
@Debra Law,
Foxie, What do you mean by "rogue president?" Does that fall under impeachment?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 02:14 pm
@ican711nm,
That's nice ican but an incorrect and vague reading of Pollock.

Pollock only ruled that the income tax on rents from land would be direct taxes. It never stated all income taxes were direct taxes. You seem to not know the details of Pollock.
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 03:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Foxie, What do you mean by "rogue president?" Does that fall under impeachment?


It appears that the question is an extremely difficult one to answer. Perhaps Foxie is conducting research and will answer later. Or maybe she's pretending to have us on ignore....
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 04:12 pm
@Debra Law,
I already know she has me on "ignore." However, I like to push her button by showing how ridiculous her statements are. I'm sure she's already lost her credibility a long time ago, but she's still a good target for laughter.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 06:10 pm
@Foxfyre,
Gore: U.S. Climate Bill Will Help Bring About 'Global Governance'
Quote:

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/o/orwell/george/o79n/
Part II, Chapter IX
The two aims of the Party are to conquer the whole surface of the earth and to extinguish once and for all the possibility of independent thought.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 06:29 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
That's nice ican but an incorrect and vague reading of Pollock.

Pollock only ruled that the income tax on rents from land would be direct taxes. It never stated all income taxes were direct taxes. You seem to not know the details of Pollock.

Please post your evidence to show that what you posted here is correct.

As I understand you, you appear to be saying that income taxes on rents from land would be direct taxes, but income taxes on income from sales of land, from sales of farm products from land, from salaries for labor contributing to sales of land, from salaries from labor helping to produce farm products, and from salaries, commissions, and fees earned from labor not associated with land, would not be direct taxes.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 09:46 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Gore: U.S. Climate Bill Will Help Bring About 'Global Governance'

Now we learn what the true end game is in regard to climate change. We knew this all along, did we not, ican? Climate change is only a vehicle, a means to the end. Years ago, I remember thinking that the new home of Marxists or communists was the environmental movement. Most conservatives have recognized this fact by now, and that is why we are so skeptical of the politically charged climate change issue. It is not about science, it is about politics, and always has been from day 1.

That explains why Obama has jumped on board with climate change so completely. The guy is completely clueless about the science, I think that much is obvious, and he really does not care about the science at all, but he sees the movement as a nice little vehicle to hop onto and try to further alot of his visionary politics, for his own benefit and power. And I don't really think the economic situation matters a whit to him as long as he can somehow hold onto his popularity. He only responds to issues as it relates to public opinion and his approval rating, thats all.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2009 10:05 pm
@okie,
Quote:
We knew this all along, did we not, ican?


The jig is up! Ican and Okie have figured it out. Drats, it's so frustrating to keep running into that duo, Batthinker and Robthinker.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2009 05:19 am
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
Yeah fox. Agenda exposed. Gore wants to use AGW policies to rule the earth! Then the GALAXY!!!
Are you daft?


Well, yes. But foxfire's daftitude (and ican's and okie's) has a rich tradition in American history. Again, I'll point to Richard Hofstadter's famous essay on precisely this phenomenon... http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/conspiracy_theory/the_paranoid_mentality/the_paranoid_style.html

If anyone here hasn't read it yet and wishes to gain a better perspective on the cultural/ideological inheritance which these folks are riding along upon, take the time for this wonderful and highly illuminating essay.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2009 07:02 am
@ican711nm,
Here is the abbreviated ruling on Pollock ican...

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0157_0429_ZS.html
Quote:
A tax on the rents or income of real estate is a direct tax within the meaning of that term as used in the Constitution of the United States.


the full ruling
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=157&invol=429

Quote:
First. That the law in question, in imposing a tax on the income or rents of real estate, imposes a tax upon the real estate itself; and in imposing a tax on the interest or other income of bonds or other personal property, held for the purposes of income or ordinarily yielding income, imposes a tax upon the personal estate itself; that such tax is a direct tax, and void because imposed without regard to the rule of apportionment; and that by reason thereof the whole law is invalidated.

Second. That the law is invalid, because imposing indirect taxes in violation of the constitutional requirement of uniformity, and therein also in violation of the implied limitation upon taxation that all tax laws must apply equally, impartially, and uniformly to all similarly situated. Under the second head, it is contended that the rule of uniformity is violated, in that the law taxes the income of certain corporations, companies, and associations, no matter how created or organized, at a higher rate than the incomes of individuals or partnerships derived from precisely similar property or business; in that it exempts from the operation of the act and from the burden of taxation numerous corporations, companies, and associations having similar property and carrying on similar business to those expressly taxed; in that it denies to individuals deriving their income from shares in certain corporations, companies, and associations the benefit of the exemption of $ 4,000 granted to other persons interested in similar property and business; in the exemption of $4,000; in the exemption of building and loan associations, savings banks, mutual life, fire, marine, and accident insurance companies, existing solely for the pecuniary profit of their members,-these and other exemptions being alleged to be purely arbitrary and capricious, justified by no public purpose, and of such magnitude as to ina lidate the entire enactment; and in other particulars.


The ruling clearly states that except for the tax on rental and real estate taxes, income tax is an indirect tax. The ruling also allows that uniformity requires that all in similar circumstances be taxed the same while never stating that all dollars earned be taxed the same. An exemption would mean all dollars earned can't be taxed the same. The exemption is not the problem for the court. Rather it is some get the exemption and others don't.


Pollock also defines "uniformity."
Quote:
The uniformity thus required is the uniformity throughout the United States of the duty, impost, and excise levied; that is, the tax levied cannot be one sum upon an article at one [157 U.S. 429, 593] place, and a different sum upon the same article at another place.


 

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