55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 09:03 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Could you please express what you think the President would do if Texas and/or New Mexico seceded from the nation?

I think the president of Canada would immediately order his army of intelligent beavers to attack the Empire of Mexico with laser-guided plasma bombs. That, however, is just my opinion, and it's subject to some revision.
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 09:55 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Perhaps, but first you have to establish that it is a fallacy, and the member didn't really specify a rationale for his statement. Shouldn't we leave open the possibility that he would be able to make a logical argument to defend it?

I'm pretty sure Walter's rationale for his statement was to show just how idiotic it was for you to suggest a causal connection between the vast ignorance of American voters and the fact that the evidence of their ignorance was reported after Obama was elected. If that's the case, then obviously it's not his logic that is suspect here.


Well since you presume to speak for Walter, and giving you benefit of the doubt that you are qualified to speak for Walter, where did either of you draw the conclusion that the current deplorable condition of education in this country was only after Obama was elected? I didn't say that. Nobody else has said that either.

However, the fact that the condition exists, and the fact that Obama wants to take over even more of the education system that the government and unions have screwed up should be of concern for those who still do have a clue.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 09:56 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Could you please express what you think the President would do if Texas and/or New Mexico seceded from the nation?

I think the president of Canada would immediately order his army of intelligent beavers to attack the Empire of Mexico with laser-guided plasma bombs. That, however, is just my opinion, and it's subject to some revision.


So is this your answer? Or can we assume you have no idea?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 10:21 am
On another pending issue since it is due to come to a vote in the House sometime this summer:

At that ABC White House healthcare event, President Obama said something to the effect that one way to save costs is not to spend on procedures that "evidence shows [are] not necessarily going to improve care" for the sick and the dying.

"Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller," the President said.

So do we trust President Obama to decide that for ourselves or our loved ones?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 11:31 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Could you please express what you think the President would do if Texas and/or New Mexico seceded from the nation?

I think the president of Canada would immediately order his army of intelligent beavers to attack the Empire of Mexico with laser-guided plasma bombs. That, however, is just my opinion, and it's subject to some revision.


So is this your answer? Or can we assume you have no idea?

What you posit is an "everything else remaining the same" world where Texas and New Mexico have chosen to secede. Frankly, I cannot envision a set of circumstances under which that situation might occur. My imagination may be good, but it's not good enough to create a world where Barack Obama is president, the constitution is in place, the results of the American Civil War are widely known, and the citizens of Texas and New Mexico are seriously thinking of seceding. Such a ceteris paribus world only exists in the perfervid imaginings of rightwing cranks like ican, and I find myself incapable of descending to that level of crackpottery.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 12:35 pm
Here's something which might not stretch your imagination too much, Joe. Imagine the kind of looks Ican gets down at the diner when he starts one of his impeachment rants or a secession rant.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 12:40 pm
@joefromchicago,
You know, I bet there were folks in Honduras who were thinking exactly as you are thinking recently. I think it is because we, as a people, have become so trusting as to believe that this wouldn't ever happen or that couldn't happen or we are in no danger of losing our First or Second Amendment rights or any other cherished freedoms, etc. I bet prior to the Civil War, a lot of Americans thought such a thing was impossible.

But I do hope we have enough visionaries however crackpot they may seem to some who are not yet totally trusting sheep and who are still thinking through the possibilities, the probabilities, and who will recognize the signs when they appear.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 12:42 pm
@Foxfyre,
In what way would Honduras be comparable to the United States, Foxfyre?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 12:45 pm
@wandeljw,
If I answer you would you agree to at least give an honest shot to answering one of my questions?
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 12:52 pm
Well, fox, you want to know what would happen if New Mexico seceded?
Someone would probably bring to the attention of the teabag whiners who are presumably the leaders of the secession movement that NM gets $2..03 back from the Feds for every dollars in tax they pay. That would be gone. Instant bankruptcy.
More than a quarter of the workforce in NM is directly employed by the US government. More than 25% of the workforce is instantly unemployed, with little hope of finding empoyment in the new "country". How are they gonna deal with that?
A lot of the remaining workforce is employed in things like defense industries. You think the US is gonna farm those out to another country? Hah. Defense industries withdrawn. More unemployment.
Tourism is another major source of state income. Where does it come from? Rest of the US. You think tourists are gonna keep coming? Again, hah. More unemployment.
The state is mostly semiarid. Largest crops are cotton, peanuts, and sorghum. You going to survive eating cotton? Where does most of the state's food come from? Try California first. No hope of NM self-sufficiency. Embargo food or impose duty on it and the "country" starves and collapses. Further, what irrigation there is is mostly there as a byproduct of federal dams. You think the feds are going to give those up? Hah, again.

In other words, secession is the most colossally stupid idea New Mexicans could possibly have. Only someone like ican could think of it. They'd have three months max.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 01:13 pm
@MontereyJack,
No actually we don't get $2.03 back from every dollar we pay. There just happens to be enormous defense expenditures in a small population and relatively poor state so government expenditures exceed private commerce and industry. Because the money is spent here does not necessarily mean that all of it benefits the people here. But the various installations and industries would still need to be manned--they would just be converted to private sector industry--so I don't think there would necessarily be as much loss of jobs as you anticipate.

It is true that New Mexico is nowhere nearly as self-sufficient as Texas, but we do grow enough food crops and beef and chicken and pork and mutton to feed our population easily plus vast coal, oil, and natural gas reserves for income to import what we else we need,

And assuming that New Mexico would be most likely to secede in tandem with Texas, we would have an immediate ally or could work out agreement to form our own new country. (I'm assuming Texas would probably insist on retaining its name, but since a chunk of NM was once part of Tejas, we aren't as emotionally attached to our name.)

So anyway, as a hypothetical, we know what Lincoln and his Congress did when the Southern States seceded in protest of US policy. What would Obama and the current Congress do facing the same kind of problem?


McGentrix
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 01:29 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

So anyway, as a hypothetical, we know what Lincoln and his Congress did when the Southern States seceded in protest of US policy. What would Obama and the current Congress do facing the same kind of problem?


Probably hold a lot of meetings and ask the UN for help.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 01:36 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
So anyway, as a hypothetical, we know what Lincoln and his Congress did when the Southern States seceded in protest of US policy. What would Obama and the current Congress do facing the same kind of problem?


He would allow the grandchildren of the Texans and New Mexicans to grow up under Sharia Law, of course.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 01:40 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
So anyway, as a hypothetical, we know what Lincoln and his Congress did when the Southern States seceded in protest of US policy. What would Obama and the current Congress do facing the same kind of problem?

If any state threatened as much, think they'd have their bluff called. The way to get what you want in this country is not by pulling out of the country like a petulant child, but rather to elect leaders and have them make rational arguments amongst the other elected leaders of the nation. You are entitled to a voice, not to getting your way.

If a state or state was to try and actually leave, they'd be committing suicide. Obama wouldn't need a war. The state's leaders who would promise this as a good thing would be abandoned and the state would come back.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 01:41 pm
@McGentrix,
Actually I've been trying to put myself in the President's shoes and have asked myself what I would do. You can't just give up the labs and NASA and all the other government installations and properties and that big a chunk of the nation's energy reserves and refining capacity without a fight. But what form would that fight take? I agree that your and Ican's initial suggested response was the way it would go--lots of meetings, negotiations, etc.

The next component of the equation is what is the response of the rest of the states? How likely would it be that if Texas and New Mexico were angry enough to vote to secede that others would also be as angry? Recognizing that Texas and New Mexico would be a huge bargaining chip, how likely would they be to throw their sympathy to the seceding states? How likely would they be to throw them their moral, financial, and perhaps physical support? How likely to threaten to join them if the President and Congress did not agree to sit down and negotiate a new game plan?

The possibilities are indeed intriguing.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 02:04 pm
@Foxfyre,
Paranoia much.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  4  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 02:07 pm
God, this is too precious . . . if you made this **** up, nobody would believe you, they'd tell you it is too far out, that you were exaggerating for dramatic effect . . . OMG, i'm laughing my ass off . . .
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 03:32 pm
@Setanta,
It reminds me of Glenn Beck's recent interview with Chuck Norris:

Quote:
GLENN: Chuck, you live in Texas.

NORRIS: Yes, I do.

GLENN: Somebody asked me this morning, they said, you really believe that there's going to be trouble in the future. And I said, if this country starts to spiral out of control and, you know, and Mexico melts down or whatever, if it really starts to spiral out of control, before America allows a country to become a totalitarian country, which it would have under I think the Republicans as well in this situation; they were taking us to the same place, just slower.

NORRIS: It was slower, yeah.

GLENN: Americans will, they just, they won't stand for it. There will be parts of the country that will rise up. And they said, where's that going to come from? And I said Texas, it's going to come from Texas. Do you agree with that, Chuck, or not?

NORRIS: Oh, yeah. You know, Texas is a republic, you know. We could actually --

GLENN: It was a country before it was a state.

NORRIS: Yeah, we could break off from the union if we wanted to.

GLENN: You do, you call me.

NORRIS: Oh, yeah.

GLENN: Seriously, you do. I don't mind having that lone star on my flag. I really don't mind it. I've been out with a seam ripper looking at my flag going, I don't know, California could go. I'm just saying --

NORRIS: I may run for president of Texas. (Laughing).

Glenn Beck Show, March 2, 2009
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 03:36 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
the president of Canada would immediately order his army of intelligent beavers to attack the Empire of Mexico

Friggin' Americans. The corps you speak of (The Princess of Wales' First Beavers) were decimated at Vimy.
ican711nm
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Jul, 2009 04:07 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
It would be an interesting scenario for sure. At least the loyal opposition would probably be heard throughout the land, something that is not happening now.
...
do we still have a majority of those who do know what freedom is, what our unalienable rights are, and what is right and just to fight for?

When the loyal opposition is heard throughout the land as a consequence of the secession scenario, there will be created a majority of those "who do know what freedom is, what our unalienable rights are, and what is right and just to fight for."
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.12 seconds on 01/21/2025 at 11:01:24