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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 02:54 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Quote:
The general public could not care less about what Evan Thomas said on MSNBC. Only conservative commentators are debating Thomas' remarks.


Well since Rush has a regular audience of 20 to 30 million Americans, would that not be a sizable chunk of the 'general public'? Fox News has also commented on the phenomenon cited by MSNBC and enjoys the highest ratings of any cable network sometimes beating all the other cable news channels combined. Hannity, Ingraham, Medved, Savage, Malkin et al have all also commented on the phenomenon and I won't be surprised if they don't also use that same MSNBC clip as an illustration for it. They all have their followings too which, along with Limbaugh, are working Americans, generally above average in education and productivity, and together with the conservative blogosphere certainly constitute a large chunk of the 'general public'.

It would be more accurate to think that Obama supporters would prefer to ignore a clip like that and pretend that it has no significance.

But again since your side is unlikely to expose much of its own 'sins', weaknesses, and shortcomings, it is the job of the opposition to do so. Your side certainly has no qualms about emphasizing and aggressively airing what they see as conservative 'sins', weaknesses, and shortcomings that conservatives don't see as big a problem. Would you not agree? Or is being in denial a chronic trait here?



Foxfyre wrote:
We have millions who don't care who he is or what he says or what he does or what he stands for who have proclaimed him the messiah and savior and who grovel and worship at his feet with orgasmic devotion.


It appears that Foxfyre is backing down from her statement that millions of people proclaimed Obama the messiah and savior and are groveling / worshipping at his feet with orgasmic devotion.

Foxfyre has narrowed this down to just one man named Evan Thomas.

Even then, however, there is no evidence on the video that Mr. Thomas was groveling at Obama's feet or in the throes of an orgasm.

Foxfyre, the hyperbolist, now argues that the promotion of extravagant exaggeration is the tea that the devotees of Fox News love to drink.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 03:01 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

wandeljw wrote:

Limbaugh came down from the mountain and saw Evan Thomas dancing and worshipping Obama. This enraged Limbaugh and he broke the tablets (oxycontin tablets). Smile


And this is the side of the Left that I hoped you wouldn't embrace. Rush went public with his addiction to prescription medications, freely admitted that he was entering into a rehab program, and he paid a terrible price for his illness via losing his hearing. If you have never overcome an addiction, you have no idea how difficult it is to recognize it, admit it, deal with it, overcome it. A number of our A2K members have overcome such an affliction and will testify that it is one of the most difficult things to do. To continue to beat somebody over the head with such an affliction after it has been appropriately dealt with is hateful and petty no matter who they are. Please don't do it.


MILLIONS of mindless idiots have proclaimed Limbaugh to be the messiah and they grovel and worship at his feet and denouce all who would speak the truth about the gas bag.
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 03:13 pm
@Foxfyre,
Another page of the Sotomayor contoversy that takes advantage of Krauthammer's advice to 'Rebuke...'

Shelby Steele of the WSJ wonders of Obama: "How does a "post-racialist" president play identity politics? This Admin would have liked us to believe that a specific statement (Latina vs. the white guy) by this USSC nominee was a not very well thought out Biden like one time thing. But it turns out that: "Throughout her career Judge Sotomayor has demonstrated a Hispanic chauvinism so extreme that it sometimes crosses into outright claims of racial supremacy"
Further, we find that perhaps Obama's intent was manifest by the fact that: "The White House acknowledges that this now famous statement -- both racist and dim-witted -- was turned up in the vetting process. So we can only assume that the president was aware of it, as well as Judge Sotomayor's career-long claim that ethnicity and gender are virtual determinisms in judging: We need diversity because, as she said in her Berkeley lecture, 'inherent physiological or cultural differences . . . make a difference in our judging.'"

Note what I think are particularly insightful uses of the words Barginer and Challanger. The relationship between the two gives insight as to why Jesse Jackson disliked Obama so much and expressed his sincere desire to perform an orchidectomy upon said Presidential hopeful: Barack was negating Jackson's raison d'tere. Now we see that Jackson's methods, while bordering on ideological and political extortion, don't, at least, produce the ideological conflicts found in Obama's exhortations vs. his actions.

Steele's thoughts:
Quote:
Sotomayor and the Politics of Race
By SHELBY STEELE

President Obama's nomination of Sonia Sotomayor for the Supreme Court points to a dilemma that will likely plague his presidency: How does a "post-racialist" president play identity politics?

What is most notable about the Sotomayor nomination is its almost perfect predictability. Somehow we all simply know -- like it or not -- that Hispanics are now overdue for the gravitas of high office. And our new post-racialist president is especially attuned to this chance to have a "first" under his belt, not to mention the chance to further secure the Hispanic vote. And yet it was precisely the American longing for post-racialism -- relief from this sort of racial calculating -- that lifted Mr. Obama into office.

The Sotomayor nomination commits the cardinal sin of identity politics: It seeks to elevate people more for the political currency of their gender and ethnicity than for their individual merit. (Here, too, is the ugly faithlessness in minority merit that always underlies such maneuverings.) Mr. Obama is promising one thing and practicing another, using his interracial background to suggest an America delivered from racial corruption even as he practices a crude form of racial patronage. From America's first black president, and a man promising the "new," we get a Supreme Court nomination that is both unoriginal and hackneyed.

This contradiction has always been at the heart of the Obama story. On the one hand there was the 2004 Democratic Convention speech proclaiming "only one America." And on the other hand there was the race-baiting of Rev. Jeremiah Wright. Does this most powerful man on earth know himself well enough to resolve this contradiction and point the way to a genuinely post-racial America?

The Sotomayor nomination suggests not. Throughout her career Judge Sotomayor has demonstrated a Hispanic chauvinism so extreme that it sometimes crosses into outright claims of racial supremacy, as in 2001 when she said in a lecture at the University of California, Berkeley, "a wise Latina woman . . . would more often than not reach a better conclusion [as a judge] than a white male."

The White House acknowledges that this now famous statement -- both racist and dim-witted -- was turned up in the vetting process. So we can only assume that the president was aware of it, as well as Judge Sotomayor's career-long claim that ethnicity and gender are virtual determinisms in judging: We need diversity because, as she said in her Berkeley lecture, "inherent physiological or cultural differences . . . make a difference in our judging." The nine white male justices who decided the Brown school-desegregation case in 1954 might have felt otherwise, as would a president seeking to lead us toward a new, post-racial society.

But of course "post-racialism" is not a real idea. It is an impression, a chimera that grows out of a very specific racial manipulation that I have called "bargaining." Here the minority makes a bargain with white society: I will not "guilt" you with America's centuries of racism if you will not hold my minority status against me. Whites love this bargain because it allows them to feel above America's racist past and, therefore, immune to charges of racism. By embracing the bargainer they embrace the impression of a world beyond racial division, a world in which whites are innocent and minorities carry no anger. This is the impression that animates bargainers like Mr. Obama or Oprah Winfrey with an irresistible charisma. Even if post-racialism is an obvious illusion -- a bargainer's trick as it were -- whites are flattered by believing in it.

But the Sotomayor nomination shows that Mr. Obama has no idea what a post-racial society would look like. In selling himself as a candidate to the American public he is a gifted bargainer beautifully turned out in post-racial impressionism. But in the real world of Supreme Court nominations, where there is a chance to actually bring some of that idealism down to earth, he chooses a hardened, divisive and race-focused veteran of the culture wars he claims to transcend.

I have called Mr. Obama a bound man because he cannot win white support without bargaining and he cannot maintain minority support without playing the very identity politics that injure him with whites. The latter form of politics is grounded in being what I call a challenger -- i.e., someone who presumes that whites are racist until they prove otherwise by granting preferences of some kind to minorities. Whites quietly seethe at challengers like Jesse Jackson who use the moral authority of their race's historic grievance to muscle for preferential treatment. Mr. Obama has been loved precisely because he was an anti-Jackson, a bargainer who grants them innocence before asking for their support. So when Mr. Obama plays identity politics -- as in the Sotomayor nomination -- he starts to look too much like the challenger. Still, if he doesn't allow identity to trump merit so that he can elevate people like Judge Sotomayor, he angers the minorities who so lavishly supported him. So far he is more the captive of America's ongoing racial neurosis than the man who might liberate us from it.

Judge Sotomayor is the archetypal challenger. Challengers see the moral authority that comes from their group's historic grievance as an entitlement to immediate parity with whites -- whether or not their group has actually earned this parity through development. If their group is not yet competitive with whites, the moral authority that comes from their grievance should be allowed to compensate for what they lack in development. This creates a terrible corruption in which the group's historic grievance is allowed to count as individual merit. And so a perverse incentive is created: Weakness and victimization are rewarded over development. Better to be a troublemaker than to pursue excellence.

Sonia Sotomayor is of the generation of minorities that came of age under the hegemony of this perverse incentive. For this generation, challenging and protesting were careerism itself. This is why middle- and upper middle-class minorities are often more militant than poor and working-class minorities. America's institutions -- universities, government agencies, the media and even corporations -- reward their grievance. Minority intellectuals, especially, have been rewarded for theories that justify grievance.

And here we come to Judge Sotomayor's favorite such ingenuity: disparate impact. In the now celebrated Ricci case the city of New Haven, Conn., threw out a paper and pencil test that firefighters were required to take for promotion because so few minorities passed it. In other words, the test had a disparate and negative impact on minorities, so the lead plaintiff, Frank Ricci -- a white male with dyslexia who worked 10 hours a day to pass the test at a high level -- was effectively denied promotion because he was white. Judge Sotomayor supported the city's decision to throw out the test undoubtedly because of her commitment to disparate impact -- a concept that invariably makes whites accountable for minority mediocrity.

Challengers are essentially team players. Their deepest atavistic connection is to their aggrieved race, ethnicity or gender. Toward the larger society that now often elevates and privileges them, they carry a lingering bad faith -- and sometimes a cavalier disregard where whites are concerned, as with Judge Sotomayor in the Ricci case.

With the Sotomayor nomination, Mr. Obama has made the same mistake his wife made in her "This is the first time I am proud of my country" remark: bad faith toward an America that has shown him only good faith.

Mr. Steele, a research fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution, is the author, most recently, of "A Bound Man: Why We Are Excited About Obama and Why He Can't Win" (Free Press, 2007).

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124442662679393077.html



JM
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 03:34 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I hadn't heard of the Michael J. Fox incident, but just read up on it a bit. Yes, another one of Rush's forays into bad taste - crass, worthy of 'boo's' - but it was not malicious nor was it making Michael Fox the butt of unkind humor.

I hope my recollection is correct. I heard Rush talk about Fox, and I think what happened is that Fox inferred that he could be cured as well as other Parkinsons patients through embryonic stem cell research, and Rush called him out on that, accusing him of false information, politicizing and mis-representing stem cell research. It was inferred that Bush was killing people with his policies, and Rush called out Fox on it.

Part of the story was Fox was shaking and trembling when making the statements, and Rush accused him of playing it up. I tend to think it is quite possible, I have known Parkinsons sufferers, and with medication the shaking can be arrested for times during the day, and why not make his statements then. None of the people I know that suffered from Parkinsons would dream of blaming President Bush, that was an insult to decency, and so Rush was very reasonably insulted as well by Fox's politicizing his disease, I agree. Limbaugh apologized, but of course no apology from Fox.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 03:37 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

MILLIONS of mindless idiots have proclaimed Limbaugh to be the messiah and they grovel and worship at his feet and denouce all who would speak the truth about the gas bag.

I have never heard of anyone that calls the Limbaugh show to refer to Limbaugh as the messiah, Debra. And I catch a fair percentage of the show, not all of it, far from it, but I think I would have heard of this if your accusation has any substance in fact. Of course, you probably made it up, right, or do you have any evidence at all?

And last I heard, Limbaugh has never expressed any interest in running for office for anything, Debra, so why the concern anyway?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 03:55 pm
@okie,
Further he has resigned from the 'titular head of the Republican Party' that some--mostly Democrats--attempted to foist on him. (The White House campaign to make THAT stick backfired big time.)

He has also pointed out that he does not have the ability to issue any kind of executive order that must be obeyed by anybody other than his own employees , he can't institute a single regulation or policy that is mandatory for anybody other than his own employees, he can't raise anybody's taxes, he can't enforce any law or mandate, he can't send anybody off to war or into battle, he can't activate the national guard, he can't pass a single law, he is subsidized by no taxpayer dollars and he has ability to authorize or spend no taxpayer dollars. If he had any real power, Bill Clinton would never have been elected once, much less twice, Hillary Clinton would have been the Democratic nominee in 2008 and John McCain would not have been the GOP nominee and, while he does enjoy the #1 rating in talk radio, he wouldn't have a 20 market share but would have a 100 market share.

To the best of my knowledge he has never run for political office of any kind.

old europe
 
  3  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 04:05 pm
Look who's here to set the record straight when some darn liberal is posting stuff about Limbaugh: the guy who likes to compare Obama to Hitler and the lady who regularly refers to the President as "the Messiah".

Laughing Laughing Laughing
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 04:18 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Debra Law wrote:

MILLIONS of mindless idiots have proclaimed Limbaugh to be the messiah and they grovel and worship at his feet and denouce all who would speak the truth about the gas bag.

I have never heard of anyone that calls the Limbaugh show to refer to Limbaugh as the messiah, Debra. And I catch a fair percentage of the show, not all of it, far from it, but I think I would have heard of this if your accusation has any substance in fact. Of course, you probably made it up, right, or do you have any evidence at all?

And last I heard, Limbaugh has never expressed any interest in running for office for anything, Debra, so why the concern anyway?


If you can't learn to follow along with the discussion, go stand in the corner.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 04:20 pm
@old europe,
I have certainly referred to the President as the messiah (little 'm' please), and have provided considerable evidence to back up the designation, none of which you have been able to dispute. I doubt Limbaugh has ever compared Obama to Hitler however. Do you have any evidence for that or have you been getting your information from radical leftwing juvenile blogs again?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 04:21 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
To the best of my knowledge he has never run for political office of any kind.


He'd make a wonderful Republican candidate, in a bushian sort of way.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 04:23 pm
@okie,
You're probably citing the facts as they were. Where Rush went into 'bad taste' was insinuating that Fox was 'politicizing' his illness even if that was a reasonable suspicion. Rush was not being malicious in any way, but, as he sometimes does, he did underestimate how his comments would be heard by others.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  3  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 04:28 pm
@Foxfyre,
Well, as Debra has pointed out, your actual claim was that there are "millions who have proclaimed him the messiah and savior and who grovel and worship at his feet with orgasmic devotion." Without "considerable evidence", but that's hardly worth mentioning.

Laughing Laughing Laughing


And I wasn't talking about your the hero of the nutty right, Limbaugh, but about okie and his new hobbyhorse of comparing Obama to Hitler.

Laughing Laughing Laughing


Being the opposition party can drive you crazy, eh?
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 04:39 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I have certainly referred to the President as the messiah (little 'm' please), and have provided considerable evidence to back up the designation, none of which you have been able to dispute. I doubt Limbaugh has ever compared Obama to Hitler however. Do you have any evidence for that or have you been getting your information from radical leftwing juvenile blogs again?


Again, Foxfyre, the cartoon is not evidence.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 04:42 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

What are you saying -- that the cartoon has been photoshopped, and no longer constitutes valid evidence?


Laughing
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 04:48 pm
@old europe,
If the 'messiah' image wasn't so prevalent OE, it wouldn't be in so many political cartoons, it wouldn't be noted in news stories just as I posted yesterday or today, and it wouldn't be fodder for Saturday Night Live or Leno, Obrien, Letterman, etc., and Obama wouldn't be making cracks about it himself.

I defy you to show where Okie has ever compared Obama to Hitler. He, along with just about every conservative writer out there, has drawn inference to the parallels between Obama or whomever and Hitler, but it is a loooooong stretch to extrapolate that into comparing somebody to Hitler or at least an inference that they are the same. Even back during the campaign somebody posted a picture of the masses who came to hear Obama in Germany as evidence of Obama's greatness. That evidence was deflated with a very similar picture of very similar masses who came to hear Hitler. In other words, the ability to amass great numbers of people who will cheer and adore you is not necessarily the mark of greatness in a way that decent people would wish to emulate.

It is as Thomas Sowell pointed out in his three-part essay on Sotomayor. The fact that she struggled does not necessarily make her more wise or empathetic or capable or a terrific person. Hitler struggled too. He was not comparing Sotomayor to Hitler, but blowing a hole in the theory that her struggles somehow qualify her to be a better supreme court justice.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 05:13 pm
@Foxfyre,
Responding to Old Europe, Foxfyre wrote:
I defy you to show where Okie has ever compared Obama to Hitler.


FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Here is one post where he compares Obama to Hitler:

okie wrote:
Actually, what we are seeing right now in America, with Obama criticizing greed and placing greater control of government in commerce, is that left or right, George? Clearly, Obama is a liberal, he is left, probably the most leftwing president we have ever had. Is he a communist? He certainly claims he isn't. Is he a socialist, probably, but he doesn't claim to be. For comparison purposes, I am not comparing Obama to Hitler to say he is a madman, I don't think he is, but I see alot of similarity between Obama's leftist policies and the policies of Hitler in the 30's. People will jump on me here for comparing Obama to Hitler, for them I would say don't get excited, what I am doing here is comparing policies, economic policy, social programs, relationship with unions, business, volunteerism, and many other things, I am comparing these things to provide evidence for my assertion that Hitler was a leftist, just as Obama is clearly a leftist.


http://able2know.org/topic/66117-8#post-3670358
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 05:16 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Further he has resigned from the 'titular head of the Republican Party' that some--mostly Democrats--attempted to foist on him. (The White House campaign to make THAT stick backfired big time.)

Actually a stronger case can be made that George Soros or Michael Moore has the head of the Democratic Party, than Limbaugh is of the Republican Party. To my knowledge, Limbaugh doesn't even attend the RNC conventions, nor does he fund the party as Soros does his party. And Moore was given a front row seat at Kerry's coronation affair, as I recall, it could have been Gore's.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 05:17 pm
http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/holb090609_cmyk20090608095704.jpg
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 06:17 pm
@Debra Law,
Here's evidence that MACs become deaf and dumb when it comes to their denials of having said something.

It's nice to see them defending their "own" kind, but the least they can do is be consistent! The compare Obama to Hitler and god.

ROFL
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 06:39 pm
@okie,
Okie wrote
Quote:
:"On balance, I think these issues must be addressed in specific ways during a campaign, rather than written in the permanent bylaws or whatever, of a party."


I totally agree with the former position. We should learn from the Dems and Obama specifically. Conservative principles are unsexy because they are so old. But they are so old for the same reasons that Rabinical wisdom is so perceived--because it is tried and true. Yes they are boring, tired old Adamsonian stubborn facts. But, they seem to sparkle with new life when applied to new and old problems in the proper context. But, perhaps a marketing effort with a more sophisticated presentation with a good salesmanship effort might not be a bad thing. But, I do think we must put forth an honest attempt to define what we believe American government goals should be and part of that process is a codification, similar to Fox's, to get the ball rolling. I'm sure you'd agree its a start. It would also be a learning tool and, if correctly constructed, a lodestone to be consulted and, indeed, interpreted as to whether specific party actions conform to those very principles.

Simply put, we have the principles. They presently are contained in our Constitution. As Modern American Conservatives we must convince our fellow citizens these constitutional rights are what made the US great. Laws and statutes are of no use to either civil or economic societies if its members are unsure as to how they will be enforced or interpreted. Further, empathy need not apply.

JM

 

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