55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:00 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I don't come here to change minds, or argue people around; do you?

I come here because I'm a misfit with no life. I'm part of a team that's supposed to clean up the library here. My colleagues made me sit at the library computer because they consider me too incompetent for the actual cleaning job. The computer, in turn, blocks out porn, so A2K is the best option I have.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:04 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I don't come here to change minds, or argue people around; do you?

I come here because I'm a misfit with no life. I'm part of a team that's supposed to clean up the library here. My colleagues made me sit at the library computer because they consider me too incompetent for the actual cleaning job. The computer, in turn, blocks out porn, so A2K is the best option I have.


Nothing like honesty.

But, now that I think about it, I see you here whilst on vacation. Taking work home with you?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:15 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
I never thought of that joke as an example of Russell's Paradox, but you might be right.


Are you perhaps referring to Mr. Russell's bon mot about the gynaecologist and the proctologist?
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:16 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
So, since you didn't refer to the point I was making, you then consider 'welfare' to be exactly the same thing as the 'general welfare'?

No, not by definition. Nevertheless, social insurance, public schooling, food stamps, and the like, are all common blessings of civil societies, as judged by the fact that practically all other civil societies have them, too. Hence, the institutions we associate with the modern welfare state institutions are a subset of what Webster's definition of "welfare" covers.


Okay. But the Founding Fathers did not see 'welfare' as you define it as the prerogative of the Federal government and they were quite specific about that and gave quite excellent rationale for that. You did not comment on the specific pertinent quotes of the Founding Fathers that supported my argument.

The reason is that welfare dispensed by the Federal government almost always becomes a corrupting influence and generates programs with shelf lives approximating mop handles that can never be eliminated no matter how ineffective or inefficient or destructive they may become. As Ben Franklin put it, once the people learn they can vote themselves money from the public treasury, the Republic is screwed. (paraphrased of course). The General Welfare was never intended to be a source of private income or benefit for any individual and, until FDR, every President resisted the temptation to provide private benefits purely because there was no constitutional authority for the federal govenrment to do that. The various states, counties, cities, and towns, however, were free to organize themselves in any manner they chose to benefit the people they served.

Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:
And since you can't seem to avoid arguing ad hominem, in what way have I proposed any kind of judicial activism on the court?

First, let me suggest that you look up what the term ad hominem means. You are using it incorrectly.


No, I am not. The Merriam Webster definition:
Main Entry: 1ad ho·mi·nem
Latin, literally, to the person
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made


When you say "You, by contrast, seem to have become quite fond of it, now that the American people have been so un-American as to dump your party.", that is clearly an illustration of an ad hominem argument. Ad hominem does not have to be blatantly insulting but draws an assumption of the unstated thought or emotion or character of the other person.

Quote:
Second, let me answer your question. Just a few pages ago, you said that the Supreme Court, in 1937, unfortunately decided that it's the business of Congress to decide what the general welfare of the United States is. You would have preferred things where the court left them in 1936, when it decided that it decide what serves the general welfare and what doesn't. And that's just the latest example. Correspondents more enterprising than myself would no doubt be able to dig up further examples.


I will think on that further, but for now I think you are putting far more interpretation on that court case than what actually happened. Also, numerous times in the past the Court has been imprudent and unwise in its decisions and eventually reversed itself. (I cited some examples of that yesterday.) The Court certainly could clarify or expand on its intentions in that 1936 case should we elect enough MACs to Congress to test that theory.

Quote:
Thomas wrote:
I also disagree that the American people have not elected leaders who decreased the scope of the welfare state. The so-called 'freshman class' of 1994

... is not currently in the majority. If and when they will be in the future, I may or may not disagree with them. But I will have no constitutional objections against their efforts to shrink the federal budget.


No. With the opening remarks for this thread, I pointed out that it was the GOP had abdicating its pledge and moral center of being the fiscal watchdogs and protector of American freedoms that cost it the majority in 2006. The GOP became self serving and self promoting and irresponsible instead of being public servants and it therefore lost the trust and support of its base. It never had the support of those who WANT a nanny state and big, authoritarian government.

Modern American Conservatism has not changed. But the party that most represented it did. And it will have to mend its ways to win the MACs back in sufficient numbers to regain control.

Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Woud you approve more socialization of America? Why?

Depends on the socialization in question. There are both some socializations and some privatizations in America that I would approve of.


What and why?

Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:17 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I wasn't asked for extemporaneous criticisms of the Bush administration.

Ah, Foxfyre, up you sometimes crack me. Laughing


Glad to be of service. But perhaps you would admit that you did not ask for extemporaneous criticisms? At the time the discussion took place, we were well past the Bush administration.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:18 am
@Thomas,
Thomas, we have no disagreement over the meaning of the word welfare.

We disagree over the meaning of the phrase:
" general welfare of the United States."

I believe your position is that phrase means:
the welfare of designated/specific/specified individuals residing in the United States.

I believe that phrase means:
the general welfare of the United States' ability to secure the rights of all individuals residing in the United States.

My belief is based on these two sentences in the 2nd paragraph of our Declaration of Independence:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

I do not believe that securing the rights of all individuals in the United States requires the federal government to redistribute wealth from those who lawfully earned it to those who did not lawfully earn it.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:18 am
@Foxfyre,
Incredible . . . it only gets better an better . . .
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  4  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:19 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Could you point out a red herring to which you refer? Please point out anything that I have said that I have refused to accept accountability for.

OK, let's try. Joe's question was quite straightforward. To paraphrase: do you think the conservative movement should accept any old crank into its big tent, no matter how outlandish his beliefs, as long as he is conservative enough?

In response to this question, you:

  • Explained how you deal with people who are personally impolite, depending on whether they are merely occassionaly goaded into rudeness or go out of their way to be unkind and insulting all the time.

This, of course, is not what Joe had asked about. So he restated his question, laying out how there are some on the left so nutty or rabid, like Zippo and the like, he wouldn't want anything to do with, and would you draw any such lines for the conservative movement? In response to this, you..

  • went on about how you would not "denigrate or put people on ignore" just because you didn't agree with them, and again expounded on the need to interact without being insulting.

This still, of course, had little to do with Joe's question. When Joe deduced that apparently, you did consider "all conservatives -- even the nuttiest -- welcome under the big MAC tent", you:

  • protested that he was wrong and that you weren't "into the thought police game like so many liberals seem to be".

This is a red herring - who was talking about thought police? Nobody was talking about shutting people up or disallowing them from saying stuff - the question was whether you'd want your movement to actively welcome people no matter how far out their beliefs were, and if you would draw a line anywhere on that.

(The funny thing was that you did, by then, eventually, give sort of an answer to his question indirectly... After first rejecting Joe's interpretation that you'd welcome all conservatives, even the nuttiest, in the big MAC tent, you proceeded to explain how you wouldn't consider a racist unacceptable, for example: "A person can believe that people of another race are inferior. [..] It is how he treats people of the other race that matters, and if he treats them as equals, then his belief shouldn't matter to anybody.")
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:30 am
But hey . . . h0w 'bout them Blue Jays?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:36 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Quote:
I never thought of that joke as an example of Russell's Paradox, but you might be right.


Are you perhaps referring to Mr. Russell's bon mot about the gynaecologist and the proctologist?

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that one.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:37 am
Even with my own low, low standards, i don't think i'd better repeat it here.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:39 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I wasn't asked for extemporaneous criticisms of the Bush administration.

Ah, Foxfyre, up you sometimes crack me. Laughing


Glad to be of service. But perhaps you would admit that you did not ask for extemporaneous criticisms? At the time the discussion took place, we were well past the Bush administration.

I freely admit that I didn't ask you for any extemporaneous criticisms. It doesn't matter to me whether you deliver them after careful preparation or whether you do so completely off the cuff.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:40 am
How about that? In the sense of this definition of liberalism, I am a liberal!!!!
Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=liberalism&x=30&y=5
Main Entry: lib·er·al·ism
...
Function: noun
...
2 :
...
b : a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint especially by government regulation in all economic activity and usually based upon free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard ...
c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of man, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for tolerance and freedom for the individual from arbitrary authority in all spheres of life especially by the protection of political and civil liberties and for government under law with the consent of the governed ...

Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:42 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
It doesn't matter to me whether you deliver them after careful preparation or whether you do so completely off the cuff.


I personally suspect that one would not be able to discern a distinction from an examination of the text.
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:43 am
@nimh,
And by the right thing, nimh, you mean become more Socialist. Do you have any doubt that Obama is a crypto-Socialist? Do I really have to give you chapter and verse on the failure of Socialism and Communism( it's logical extension) in the world. Even China is leaning toward market capitalism.

I am very much afraid, nimh, that you and most of your cohorts are superannuated hippies who bought into relativism and deconstructionism MAINLY because you want to live lives unencumbered by any kind of discipline-either moral or societal.

If Dante was writing today, he would place you and the relativists near the bottom circle of Hell!
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:43 am
I can PROVE that Joe the Jag is a fraud.

Here is what the moron wrote on a previous post.

Is it better to go to an Ivy League school?
What's the difference between a top-rated law school and one that's not so highly rated?
I may be expelled from the secret brotherhood for saying this, but the difference in the education that you would get in a top-tier law school and the one you would get in a second- or third-tier school is minimal. You might get a more stimulating intellectual experience at Harvard or Yale, but you'll probably learn just as much about torts and contracts at Boston College or the Univ. of Connecticut.

The real difference between law schools isn't what happens in the classrooms, it's what happens in the interview rooms. Better law schools attract better law firm recruiters. The big law firms that typically interview at a dozen law schools every year will be focusing on top-tier schools and offering those students the high-paying jobs. Students at lower-ranked schools can still get jobs, but they often have to make contact with the firms directly (rather than waiting for the interviewers to come to campus). With the top-ranked law schools, then, you purchase access to jobs. And, given the competition and rewards, that access is often worth the price.

*******************************************************************

What the fraud Joe the Jag from Chicago won't tell you is that the best students go to the Ivy League Law Schools. The moron says that "the best schools attract the better firm recruiters." The recruiters are irrelevant.

The TOP FIRMS. The firms which pay beginners $200,000 a year take no one from the kind of Law School from which Joe the Jag graduated. Joe the JAg obviously has an inferiority complex and tries to denigrate the better law schools. The people who will learn MORE about "torts and contracts" are the people in the Ivy League schools. The people in the top ten Law Schools as listed in the US news and world report each year are the best lawyers,

Then the imbecile( who really proves here that he knows nothing about law )says: "Students at lower ranked schools can still get jobs but they often have to make contact with the firms directly.

WRONG -MR. JOE THE JAG WRONG.

Joe the Jag gave a wrong answer. He claimed--The difference between a top rated school and a second or third tier school is minimal.

What a moron!

He obviously does not know that the best firms( take two for example in Chicago--Jenner and Block and/or Sidley and Austin) DO NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT TAKE PEOPLE FROM **** SCHOOLS LIKE THE ONE THAT JOE THE JAG ATTENDED UNLESS THEY ARE THE TOP STUDENT.

If Joe the Jag looked at the schools from which the lawyers in the two law firms above graduated, he would find that MOST of the lawyers went to the top fifteen firms listed by US News and World Report.

So, Joe the JAg is WRONG. It is much better to go to one of the fifteen top law schools because you have a much much better chance of being accepted by a top law firm.

So what?

Beginners at top law firms make $200,000 a year. People like Joe the Jag who went to a TTT(third tier toilet) law school end up chasing ambulances or getting gangbangers off a minor drug charge.

Joe the Jag won't admit this but his inferior education shines right through his response to the question he asked. He is clearly envious of Ivy League Graduates.

What BullshitJoe spiels:---A University of Connecticut graduate learns as much as an Ivy League Law Student. Unless he or she was the best student in that year's class or the editor of the law review, they wouldn't last fifteen minutes in a top law firm.
******
That is why Joe the Jag could not clearly explain why the USSC was wrong in Bush vs. Gore. He went to a TTT.

That is why Joe the Jag could not rebut any rebuttals made to him. He went to a TTT.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:44 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Woud you approve more socialization of America? Why?


This is one we really need to call dlowan in on.

I'd be more interested in the how than the why of the socialization of any country.

Quote:
Main Entry: so·cial·iza·tion
Variant(s): also British so·cial·isa·tion \ˌsōsh-(ə-)lə-ˈzā-shən\
Function: noun
: the process by which a human being beginning at infancy acquires the habits, beliefs, and accumulated knowledge of society through education and training for adult status
(M-W)




genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:44 am

Previous • Post: # 3,667,111 • Next genoves

-1 Reply report Tue 2 Jun, 2009 10:41 pm Here are some facts for Joe from Chicago and Thomas to chew on. Of course, Thomas may rebut them. Thomas has some courage. But Joe from Chicago.

I continue to urinate on his shoes and he is so cowardly he lets me do it.

Material below is from the fine post written by James Morrison to which no left winger responded. The rule for left wingers--If you can't answer the argument, run away.


1 Reply report Tue 2 Jun, 2009 06:20 pm ICAN you are not alone in your concept of lawlessness regarding our government under present and past politicians. This column, of course, deals with the here and now with an eye towards our future.


Quote:
Jewish World Review May 14, 2009 20 Iyar 5769

Tincture of Lawlessness: Obama's Overreaching Economic Policies

By George Will

Anyone, said T.S. Eliot, could carve a goose, were it not for the bones. And anyone could govern as boldly as his whims decreed, were it not for the skeletal structure that keeps civil society civil " the rule of law. The Obama administration is bold. It also is careless regarding constitutional values and is acquiring a tincture of lawlessness.


In February, California's Democratic-controlled Legislature, faced with a $42 billion budget deficit, trimmed $74 million (1.4 percent) from one of the state's fastest-growing programs, which provides care for low-income and incapacitated elderly people and which cost the state $5.42 billion last year. The Los Angeles Times reports that "loose oversight and bureaucratic inertia have allowed fraud to fester."


But the Service Employees International Union collects nearly $5 million a month from 223,000 caregivers who are members. And the Obama administration has told California that unless the $74 million in cuts are rescinded, it will deny the state $6.8 billion in stimulus money.


Such a federal ukase (the word derives from czarist Russia; how appropriate) to a state legislature is a sign of the administration's dependency agenda " maximizing the number of people and institutions dependent on the federal government. For the first time, neither sales nor property nor income taxes are the largest source of money for state and local governments. The federal government is.


The SEIU says the cuts violate contracts negotiated with counties. California officials say the state required the contracts to contain clauses allowing pay to be reduced if state funding is.

Anyway, the Obama administration, judging by its cavalier disregard of contracts between Chrysler and some of the lenders it sought money from, thinks contracts are written on water. The administration proposes that Chrysler's secured creditors get 28 cents per dollar on the $7 billion owed to them but that the United Auto Workers union get 43 cents per dollar on its $11 billion in claims " and 55 percent of the company. This, even though the secured creditors' contracts supposedly guaranteed them better standing than the union.


Among Chrysler's lenders, some servile banks that are now dependent on the administration for capital infusions tugged their forelocks and agreed. Some hedge funds among Chrysler's lenders that are not dependent were vilified by the president because they dared to resist his demand that they violate their fiduciary duties to their investors, who include individuals and institutional pension funds.


The Economist says the administration has "ridden roughshod over [creditors'] legitimate claims over the [automobile companies'] assets. . . . Bankruptcies involve dividing a shrunken pie. But not all claims are equal: some lenders provide cheaper funds to firms in return for a more secure claim over the assets should things go wrong. They rank above other stakeholders, including shareholders and employees. This principle is now being trashed." Tom Lauria, a lawyer representing hedge fund people trashed by the president as the cause of Chrysler's bankruptcy, asked that his clients' names not be published for fear of violence threatened in e-mails to them.


The Troubled Assets Relief Program, which has not yet been used for its supposed purpose (to purchase such assets from banks), has been the instrument of the administration's adventure in the automobile industry. TARP's $700 billion, like much of the supposed "stimulus" money, is a slush fund the executive branch can use as it pleases. This is as lawless as it would be for Congress to say to the IRS: We need $3.5 trillion to run the government next year, so raise it however you wish " from whomever, at whatever rates you think suitable. Don't bother us with details.


This is not gross, unambiguous lawlessness of the Nixonian sort " burglaries, abuse of the IRS and FBI, etc. " but it is uncomfortably close to an abuse of power that perhaps gave Nixon ideas: When in 1962 the steel industry raised prices, President John F. Kennedy had a tantrum and his administration leaked rumors that the IRS would conduct audits of steel executives, and sent FBI agents on predawn visits to the homes of journalists who covered the steel industry, ostensibly to further a legitimate investigation.


The Obama administration's agenda of maximizing dependency involves political favoritism cloaked in the raiment of "economic planning" and "social justice" that somehow produce results superior to what markets produce when freedom allows merit to manifest itself, and incompetence to fail. The administration's central activity " the political allocation of wealth and opportunity " is not merely susceptible to corruption, it is corruption.

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/will051409.php3
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:45 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Could you point out a red herring to which you refer? Please point out anything that I have said that I have refused to accept accountability for.

OK, let's try. Joe's question was quite straightforward. To paraphrase: do you think the conservative movement should accept any old crank into its big tent, no matter how outlandish his beliefs, as long as he is conservative enough?

In response to this question, you:

  • Explained how you deal with people who are personally impolite, depending on whether they are merely occassionaly goaded into rudeness or go out of their way to be unkind and insulting all the time.

This, of course, is not what Joe had asked about. So he restated his question, laying out how there are some on the left so nutty or rabid, like Zippo and the like, he wouldn't want anything to do with, and would you draw any such lines for the conservative movement? In response to this, you..

  • went on about how you would not "denigrate or put people on ignore" just because you didn't agree with them, and again expounded on the need to interact without being insulting.

This still, of course, had little to do with Joe's question. When Joe deduced that apparently, you did consider "all conservatives -- even the nuttiest -- welcome under the big MAC tent", you:

  • protested that he was wrong and that you weren't "into the thought police game like so many liberals seem to be".

This is a red herring - who was talking about thought police? Nobody was talking about shutting people up or disallowing them from saying stuff - the question was whether you'd want your movement to actively welcome people no matter how far out their beliefs were, and if you would draw a line anywhere on that.

(The funny thing was that you did, by then, eventually, give sort of an answer to his question indirectly... After first rejecting Joe's interpretation that you'd welcome all conservatives, even the nuttiest, in the big MAC tent, you proceeded to explain how you wouldn't consider a racist unacceptable, for example: "A person can believe that people of another race are inferior. [..] It is how he treats people of the other race that matters, and if he treats them as equals, then his belief shouldn't matter to anybody.")


I suppose it is all in the perspective. The way the question was phrased, I couldn't see that it was possible to answer it with a straight yes or no answer or at least I thought it would leave the wrong impression should I do so. As I said, the question wasn't so easily to assign to an absolute 'black or white' stance.

Right or wrong, I saw Joe's question to be referring to what people say as opposed to what people do. And that is why my 'thought police' analogy was not a red herring because I do not see stupid, cranky, or even offensive language as necessarily disqualifying to anybody while what they do, how they treat others, their moral center does qualify people as being acceptable or not acceptable to me. And I even had to qualify that to some degree to allow for the feet of clay that we all have.

McGentrix tore into Cyclop yesterday for instance. Cyclop is one of the most offensive members on A2K but I still cringed at the language McG used to describe him. I can't condone it. But I have forgiven Cyclop at times for his frequent obnoxious stupidity and hatefulness because I have concluded he is incapable of helping himself--yes, that is an ad hominem conclusion--and I forgive McG from long experience of who he is, how he thinks, and the basic goodness of his heart that I know is there. McG is not prone to go out of his way to hurt or be unkind to people. Some A2K members do that. I would be proud to have McG at my dinner table. I would be very leery of those who think it is fun to hurt or be unkind to people.

And that's the way I look at it for the 'MAC club' too. I am far less concerned with how cranky or stupid people are than how they treat people and their basic philosophy about what is good and not good.

Example. My mother, by modern definition, was a racist. She would have emphatically denied that but every now and then she would come up with a gem such as:' "Have you ever noticed that as the 'Nigras' get better educated, their skin gets lighter?" Okay that was a thoroughly stupid remark that would get her kicked out of almost any club, yes? But this same woman blasted coworkers to their face for making fun of a black colleague and sat at the bedside of another dying black colleague who had no family and took care of her for ten straight days and was one of the very few white people at the funeral. You make the call. Racist in word. Yeah. In deed? I don't think so.

Meanwhile I gave it my best shot to 'reform' those who I think do enjoy being unkind or cruel or hateful to me and/or others. It didn't work. So now I just put them on ignore. That works for me. And yes, I do have one or two 'conservatives' on ignore for just that reason.







genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:46 am
@ehBeth,
The only thing Dlowan knows anything about is rabbit ****. Or haven't you learned that yet. The disease ridden rabbit rarely posts a link and thinks that if she flatulates on the screen, it is praiseworthy.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.22 seconds on 11/16/2024 at 04:29:46