55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 05:04 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

The right is still hitting Pelosi on the CIA torture issue.


let 'em.

am i the only one that is noticing that the c.i.a. and the republicans are actually out there taking credit for breaking the law and torturing people?

this is so fucked up as to be mind boggling.

just keep feeding out the rope.
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 05:12 pm
Debra L A W, is of course, highly excrementatious on this subject.

First of all, she provides no link. She is not, as far as I am able to discern a reporter from the Times with access to sources.

Secondly, her paragraph is the sheerest bullsh.t.

Here is the truth.


Wall Street Journal--May 9-10, 2009- P. A 12

quote:

These days, Speaker Pelosi insists she heard and saw no evil." We were not--I repeat--were not told that waterboarding or any of those other enhanced interrogation metods were used...What they told us is they had...the Office of Legal Counsel opinions ( and) that they could be used, but not that they would.

That doesn't square with the memory of Mr.Goss, who has noted that "we were briefed and we certainly understood what the CIA was doing" adding that "Not only was there no objection,there was actually concern about whether the agency was DOING ENOUGH".

Ms. Pelosi's denials are also difficult to square with a chronology of 40 CIA briefings to Congressional Members compiled by the CIA and released this week by Director Leon Panetta( OBAMA 'S DEMOCRATIC APPOINTEE TO HEAD THE CIA).

For the September 4, 2002 meeting, the CIA's summary of the discussion reads: Briefings on EIT's including use of EITs on Abvu Zubaydah, background on authorities, and A DESCRIPTION OF THE PARTICULAR EIT'S THAT HAD BEEN EMPLOYED. We emphasize the verb tense to underscore the contradiction with Ms. Pelosi's categorical denials of last month>"

end of quote
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 05:19 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
DontTreadOnMe wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

And a nation who put a man on the moon should also be able to;


develop safe and clean sources of energy.


Which will happen if the private sector is given sufficient incentive to do so.

Quote:
develop and provide a universal healthcare system that is inexpensive, efficient and far superior to that offered in other industrialized nations.


Well we already have that except for the inexpensive part and that will happen (again) if the government gets out of it.

Quote:
should be able to develop and build efficient and safe high speed rail systems across the country.


Well lets see. It is roughly 2500 miles from New York City to Los Angeles. At 100 miles per hour, that's 25 hours on the train without making ANY stops for fuel or to pick up or drop off passengers. The same distance can be covered by air in a little under 3 hours and probably a whole lot cheaper. We are running a commuter train on the roughly 100 miles between Belen NM and Santa Fe NM now that carries a few hundred passengers, most of which previously utilized company busses and vans on not-all-that-crowded Interestate 25. The vans and busses were paid for by private industry or the passengers themselves. The train is heavily subsidized by the NM taxpayer and whatever federal grants it can get and that bill figures to go up substantially year by year.

Certainly in heavily populated urban areas commuter trains are the way to go and those areas should be able to justify them and pay for them without help from Maljamar NM or Two Guns AZ where the citizens probably will never need or even see a commuter train in their entire lives.

Quote:
should be able to develop and provide not just adequate, but safe and superior public schools that develop minds in all areas of education, including the sciences and the arts.


Why is it that the more money the government pours into the school--highest per capita of any industrialized nation--the worse the schools get? Maybe turning that responsibility back to the states and local communities might net really great benefits?

Quote:
develop and manufacture goods that are well made, reasonably priced and made in america by american workers.


Governments don't do that. Private industry does. Put enough regulation into place to ensure reasonable product safety and prevent people from doing violence to each other, lower taxes and implement a free market system in which business and industry calls the shots instead of government and unions and then watch us thrive.

Quote:
develop and grow nutritious vegetables, grains, fruit and food animals that are of high quality, safe to eat and reasonably priced so as to be available to even the poorest so they aren't consigned to eating useless McFood with no qualities other than being terrific if you're trying grow a humongous ass.


The government doesn't do that either. But control our borders and put policies and incentive into place to make that happen in the private sector and it will. Also, there will be more jobs for those poor people. $10 trillion poured into the war on poverty should be enough of that experiement. Let's try something else.

Quote:
develop, equip and maintain a military that can confidently go into combat without the need to write home for a flak jacket, or scrounge around for scraps of sheet metal to weld on to the glorified dune buggies they're expected to roll across booby trapped roads under heavy weapons fire.


No quarrel there. We do need to provide the best we can provide for those who go into harm's way on our behalf. I sure hope the President doesn't go through with his plan to severely reduce the Defense budget so that we are severely under equipped should we need to engage an enemy militarily.

Quote:
develop and maintain a full time fleet of high orbit and space vehicles so that we don't have to beg russia for a lift up to our own space station.


No quarrel here either. I'm a passionate supporter of the space program so long as it is beneficial to the people.

Quote:
develop and launch space vehicles capable of interplanetary travel so we can boost our learning about the galaxy and universe we live in rather than rely on explanations written by ancients who believed the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth. hasn't it occured to people that it is entirely possible that we might find a source of safe energy that would be cheap to develop for our needs?


That would be good. Is it included in the President's $3.5 trillion budget somewhere? Look how much we could do if MACean principles were employed by the government.

Quote:
develop and provide medical treatments unhampered by philosophical dogma.


That will happen when government gets out of the process altogether. Dogma goes two ways and it should not be a function of government from either camp.

Quote:
understand that relying on "trust in god" may be comforting, but "e pluribus unum" provided more, and better results.


Which means that every citizen who is able should be required to take responsibility for and accept the consequences for his own choices and should not leave it up to the government or others to provide what he should provide for himself and his/her family. Every citizen should be paying some taxes into the system and have a stake in it. No government can be uncorrupt if those who vote have no stake in the outcome of an election other than to protect their cut of the government dole.



genoves
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 05:22 pm
Debra L A W wrote:

I've also posted on this issue. There exist many, many examples from our history demonstrating that our secretive CIA has mislead Congress. The right's attempt to portray the CIA as the irreproachable "paragon of virtue" agency is absurd. It is obvious to all that the Bush/Cheney gang of criminals and their unethical proponents are trying to divert attention away from themselves by attacking Pelosi. They don't comprehend that these attacks make Pelosi all the more determined to shine a spotlight on all the skeletons they have hidden away in their closet. If their arrogant foolishness leads us to the truth and ultimately gets us to the point wherein we can scrub our government clean, then I'm in favor of their repeated attacks on Pelosi.

**************************************************

end of quote.

Now, I know that Debra L A W came close to being nominated as a Federal Court Judge because of her brilliance in legal studies and her impressive IQ and graduation from one of our best law schools.

However, I do not think that Debra LAW, for all her brilliance,can pull a paragraph out of her anus and post it without some kind of reference.

Why?

Because Debra L A W proved that when push comes to shove she is so stupid that she credits Barry Obama with the creation of the title of his book--The Audicity of Hope--Even a well read Eighth Grader knows that Barry Obama stole the title from his Anti-American pastor--the reverend Wright.

Now, the legal genius Debra L AW can show us that she is really the successor to the malignant dwarf--Goldberg by expertly rebutting the WSJ editorial which gives FACTS.

Failing that- My Post indicting Pelosi as a liar, stands,
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 05:41 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I sure hope the President doesn't go through with his plan to severely reduce the Defense budget so that we are severely under equipped should we need to engage an enemy militarily.

What plan would that be? The one where he wants to increase the defense budget?
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 05:47 pm
Before we invaded Iraq, the CIA MISLED Colin Powell about links between al-Qaida and Iraq. Powell proceeded to mislead congress and the public on this, which led to our invasion.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/051809a.html
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 05:58 pm
@joefromchicago,
I have not seen a request for an increase in the defense budget. I have seen. . .

Quote:
The Obama administration has asked the military's Joint Chiefs of Staff to cut the Pentagon's budget request for the fiscal year 2010 by more than 10 percent -- about $55 billion -- a senior U.S. defense official tells FOX News.

Last year's defense budget was $512 billion. Service chiefs and planners will be spending the weekend "burning the midnight oil" looking at ways to cut the budget -- looking especially at weapons programs, the defense official said.

Some overall budget figures are expected to be announced Monday.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/01/30/defense-official-obama-calling-defense-budget-cuts/


I understand that the over all defense budget for 2010 is up something like 4% to 9% though depending on what numbers you're looking at. But all Presidents increase all budget items in their budgets. The proof comes in the appropriations bills to come in the fall when the actual appropriations can be consdierably less than the line item in the budget. That's where both Carter and Clinton did reduce expenditures for weapons, upgrades, etc. during their administrations. I'm hoping Obama won't follow suit.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 06:52 pm
@Advocate,
Like Paneta said, the CIA never lies. Want to buy a bridge in Montana?
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 07:32 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Like Paneta said, the CIA never lies. Want to buy a bridge in Montana?


ssshhhh! i'm still trying close the deal on reclaimed swampland!!
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 08:27 pm
ABORTION COMPROMISE

According to the WSJ today, May 18th, Obama called for common ground on abortion. At the graduation exercises at Notre Dame yesterday, Obama urged both sides in the debate to tone down their rhetoric and work together to reduce unintended preganancies and make adoption more available.

Some say killing a fertilized embroy is murder. Others say killing a fertilized embroy is not murder, but killing a fetus is murder. Still others say killing a fertilized embroy or a fetus is not murder, but killing a baby during birth is murder. And still others say killing a fertilized embroy, fetus, or baby during birth is not murder, but killing a baby after birth is murder.

This is my compromise: killing a fertilized embroy or a fetus prior to the time it is fully formed is not murder, but killing the fetus anytime after it is fully formed is murder.

Some have alleged that a fetus is generally fully formed at about the beginning of the 20th week after conception.

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=ovum&x=28&y=5
Main Entry: ovum
...
1 a : a mature egg that has undergone reduction, is ready for fertilization, and takes the form of a relatively large inactive gamete providing a comparatively great amount of reserve material and contributing most of the cytoplasm of the zygote
...
http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=embryo
Main Entry: em·bryo
...
1c : the developing human individual from the time of implantation to the end of the eighth week after conception -- compare FETUS, OVUM
...
http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=fetus&x=24&y=7
...
Main Entry: fe·tus
...
specifically : a developing human from usually three months after conception to birth -- compare EMBRYO
...
http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=baby&x=26&y=5
...
Main Entry: 1[size]=24]ba·by[/size]
...
1 a (1) : an extremely young child; especially : one that is still in arms
...
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 08:39 pm
OBAMA AND MEMBERS OF UNIONS

At the end of 2008, over 145 million people were gainfully employed in America. Also at the end of 2008, less than 14.5 million--less than 10%) of those gainfully employed were members of unions.

To protect the employment of union members at the expense of many of the employed non-union members is at least terribly biased and bigoted, and at worst a crime.

But that is exactly what Obama is doing. Some say he is doing that because the unions contributed a great deal of money to Obama's election campaign. Yea but, Obama is President of all the American people, not just American union members!

Union members may prosper until a great many of the rest of us go broke. After that what are those union members going to do?
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 08:41 pm
Does Pelosi think she is lying or telling the truth? I for one don't care which it is. Either way, she is acting like a fool!
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 10:02 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I have not seen a request for an increase in the defense budget.

You should read more widely.

http://able2know.org/topic/131439-1#post-3629768
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 10:13 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:
This is my compromise: killing a fertilized embroy or a fetus prior to the time it is fully formed is not murder, but killing the fetus anytime after it is fully formed is murder.

Brilliant! I can't understand why no one thought of that before.

Rolling Eyes
genoves
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 11:02 pm
@joefromchicago,
The reason you can't understand that, Joe from Chicago, is that you are the kind of slug who kisses Stronger's rear end so that you can garner some cases of people who come to 26th and California because they were peddling dime bags.

You don't know sh.t about abortion. Abortion is not mentioned in the constitution. You have no idea of the flimsy and insulting basis used by the senile Blackmun.

In the TTT(Third tier toilet) law school you attended, they probably never referenced the stupid rationale Blackmun gave.

Here is part of that abomination:

The Constitution DOES NOT explicitly mention any right of privacy. In a line of decisions, however, the Court has recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the constitution...We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, IS NOT IN A POSITION TO SPECULATE AS TO THE ANSWER"

And yet, even though the court cannot speculate as to the answer, morons like Joe from Chicago, are complicit in the murder of millions of fetuses.

Joe from Chicago and those like him had better hope that they are not brought to account in an after life for the crimes done against innocents!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 10:29 am
@joefromchicago,
It's because ican does't realize the irony of his own post. You see, he says it's "his compromise." LOL
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 11:31 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

It's because ican does't realize the irony of his own post....


never does...
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 12:02 pm
@ican711nm,
Get it through your head -- the unions gave money to Obama.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 12:52 pm
And here's the next chapter in the President's promise to 'save jobs'. It would seem from Robert Reisch's remarks that he doesn't want the money going to white construction workers. Could that suggest that the current administration/Congress aren't interested in saving jobs at all but rather will use most of the stimulus money to pay off some key constituencies?:



It should be noted that many if not most construction workers losing their jobs, no matter what color they might happen to be, are heading families, supporting wives and kids, and those people will be receiving or at least will be eligible for public assistance very soon.

Quote:
Blue collar U.S. males lose more ground
Mon May 18, 2009

* U.S. male unemployment rate surges past national average

* Blue collar men take worst hit, wages keep falling

* Construction may recover; many assembly jobs are gone

By Ed Stoddard

DALLAS, May 19 (Reuters) - Rodney Ringler is an unemployed blue collar male without a college degree. He's hardly alone. Men like him have been the main victims of the current recession in the United States.

"I haven't worked since December of 2007, around the time this recession started," Ringler, a 49-year-old computer technician, said as he walked his dog in a Dallas suburb.

He sees little light at the end of the tunnel.

"I've been looking to get into law enforcement because it's a growth area," he said, but had no immediate prospects.

One statistic that stands out in America's recession-stung economy is the unemployment rate for adult men: in April for the second month in a row it surged ahead of the national average to 9.4 percent versus 8.9 percent for all workers. The jobless rate for adult women was 7.1 percent.

The reasons are clear: male-heavy sectors such as construction and manufacturing have been hard hit. But the implications may be dire for the broader economy and hamper the recovery as families that once had male breadwinners struggle. . . .
http://www.reuters.com/article/economicNews/idUSN1450507420090518


How much difference would it have made if the Obama administration had frozen or cut back government spending and instead lowered taxes and put other incentives into place to encourage American businesses and industries to begin producing again? Positive cash flow would have benefitted the states who are trying to solve their budget woes by increasing taxes which so far have accomplished nothing but accelerated cash drain on treasuries. The same thing is happening at the national level.

The history demonstrating fiscal responsibility is that you don't raise taxes in time of recession and you can't spend yourself rich.


Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 12:55 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:


How much difference would it have made if the Obama administration had frozen or cut back government spending and instead lowered taxes and put other incentives into place to encourage American businesses and industries to begin producing again?


Things would have been much, much worse had we gone with this plan. Neither you nor any other Conservative has detailed how cutting taxes for the Rich and businesses will actually lead to new jobs whatsoever; you merely assert that it will.

At the same time, most of our major banks and our auto industry (and the supporting industries) would have failed and cuts in government spending would have put hundreds of thousands more out of a job. I'm hard-pressed to see how you could explain this as a more positive situation than the one we currently face.

Cycloptichorn
 

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