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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 May, 2009 04:40 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

Oh look!!! Even former Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Conner says that a fetus becomes viable only after a few weeks of pregnancy!


And this has to do with the GOVERNMENT'S interest in potential life. The government has no enforceable interest whatsoever in potential life until it becomes VIABLE--meaning until it can survive outside the womb. When potential life becomes becomes viable--capable of surviving outside the womb--then the government may prohibit abortions except when a doctor deems it necessary to save the life/health of the pregnant woman.
genoves
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 16 May, 2009 04:42 pm
@Debra Law,
But does Debra Law realize that Science will be taking us to a time when viability will be pushed back farther and farther? Debra L A W, who really should have been appointed to the Supreme Court in place of the malignant dwarf, Goldberg, has not kept up on her reading:

Note:

Window to The Womb

By William Saletan
Sunday, April 29, 2007; Page B02

Last week, antiabortion activists won their biggest victory in 40 years: a Supreme Court decision upholding the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act. This week, they announced their next target. They want bills that, in the words of Douglas Johnson of the National Right to Life Committee, "require the abortionist to offer the woman an opportunity to view an ultrasound" of her fetus.

For the activists, this segue is logical. For the court, it means trouble. It threatens to unravel the latest judicial compromise and, with it, Roe v. Wade. In its April 18 ruling, the court treated abortion like an obscenity -- something that could be done but not out in the open. "Partial-birth" abortions, the court reasoned, could be banned because they occur outside the woman's body. Other abortions need not be outlawed, because the womb conceals them.



But ultrasound dissolves this distinction. It makes every fetus and every abortion visible. It could force the court to renounce either the partial-birth ban or the right to abortion.

For 34 years, the court allowed states to regulate, but not ban, abortions where the fetus wasn't viable outside the womb. That era ended on April 18. Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, writing for the court, ruled that the partial-birth ban was compatible with Roe because abortions other than the partial-birth kind would remain legal.

Kennedy noted that the selective ban was rational because partial-birth abortion, unlike internal dismemberment, "occurs when the fetus is partially outside the mother" and therefore has a "disturbing similarity to the killing of a newborn infant." In other words, it's rational and constitutional to ban abortions based on how they look, not what they are. Killing the fetus inside the womb is okay, because the public won't see it.

That's one reason why abortion opponents are turning their attention from partial-birth abortion to ultrasound, from the fetus outside the body to the fetus within it. They're trying to open, in their words, a "window to the womb."


Around the country, ultrasound bills are all the rage. Most of them require clinics to offer each woman an ultrasound view of her fetus. Mississippi enacted a law on March 22. Idaho followed on April 3. Georgia's legislature passed a bill a week ago; South Carolina's is about to do the same.

Critics complain that these bills seek to "bias," "coerce" and "guilt-trip" women. Come on. Women aren't too weak to face the truth. If you don't want to look at the video, you don't have to. But you should look at it, and so should the guy who got you pregnant, because the decision you're about to make is as grave as it gets.

Are ultrasound pushers trying to bias your decision? Of course. But of all the things they do to "inform" your decision, ultrasound is the least onerous.

Look at the Senate's Unborn Child Pain Awareness Act, which would order your doctor to deliver a 193-word script full of debatable congressional findings about your "pain-capable unborn child." Ultrasound cuts through that kind of garbage. The image on the monitor may look like a blob, a baby or neither. It certainly won't follow some senator's script. All it will show you is the truth.

I'd propose four amendments to any ultrasound bill. First, the government should pick up the tab. Second, the woman should also be offered a six-hour videotape of a screaming 1-year-old. Third, any juror in a death-penalty case should be offered the chance to view an execution. Fourth, anyone buying meat should be offered a video from a slaughterhouse. If my first amendment passed but the others failed, I'd still vote for the bill.

To abortion opponents, ultrasound is a test of pro-choice sincerity. Mary Spaulding Balch, the state legislative director for the National Right to Life Committee, says people who resist ultrasound bills are "petrified that women will change their minds after seeing their babies."

Maybe. But abortion opponents seem equally petrified that women won't change their minds. They rigged Mississippi's ultrasound law with a clause that would ban nearly all abortions if Roe is overturned.

Now the Supreme Court has echoed that equivocation, ruling that one way to "inform" women of the evil of partial-birth abortion is to criminalize it. But the clash between ultrasound and the partial-birth ban is ultimately a choice between information and prohibition. To trust the ultrasound, you have to trust the woman.

**************************************


0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 May, 2009 04:52 pm
@Foxfyre,
There's a difference between disagreeing with an opinion based on certain facts, and simply claiming the facts don't exist or that there's no agreed-upon definition of the terms used.

If think that abortion should not be legal before the point of viability because from the point of conception onwards, we're dealing with potential human life, you're very welcome to do so. That would at least constitute an argument. Whether I agree with that or not, I most certainly wouldn't dismiss it as utter silliness.

However, I disagree that insisting on using a term which is defined as "the point in a pregnancy where a fetus is able to survive in an extrauterine environment" to describe the condition immediately after conception constitutes "carefully constructing an argument". In my humble opinion. You can disagree with that.
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 16 May, 2009 04:54 pm
Has Debra L A W and the other abortionists kept up on their reading?

What will viability be in 2100( after all, we use that data with regard to the alleged "global warming)? 15 week---- 1o weeks?

Some Medical Considerations

By Phillip G. Stubblefield

Although a large majority of Americans favor legal abortion under at least some circumstances, (10) almost no one would speak in favor of infanticide. A problem arises for some people in drawing the line between the two. The Supreme Court has defined viability as the point in gestation at which the fetus "is potentially able to live outside the womb, albeit with artificial aid," and this is the limit the Court set at which abortions could be legally performed without government interference. The Court stated that viability commonly occurred at 24-28 weeks' gestation. (*11) However, establishing viability as the limit for abortion raises ethical problems. (12) If someone, somewhere, were able to develop an artificial womb capable of sustaining fetal growth and development, would that advance mean that abortion would no longer be ethical? I would agree with Nancy Rhoden that consideration of the pregnant woman's rights and health dictates that abortion should still be permitted up to an arbitrary point in gesta tion. (13) However, at present our legal doctrine places great emphasis on viability as the limit and has reinforced the view that physicians, rather than the courts, must determine what viability means in specific cases. (14) A good working definition of viability is the ability of the infant, afforded the best available medical care, to survive the neonatal period, that is, to live beyond 28 days. This definition, although necessarily arbitrary, derives logically from current reporting practice about neonatal mortality. (15) Improvements achieved in perinatal care since Roe v. Wade may have lowered the gestational age at which viability becomes possible. Through the 1960s, 28 weeks was considered the threshold of viability. It was extremely uncommon for an infant born before 28 menstrual weeks to survive for 28 days and to leave the hospital. This situation changed throughout the 1970s, as a result of improvements in obstetric and pediatric practice; so, by 1975, a survey of North American neonatal intensiv e care units found that the threshold of viability had become earlier, as infants born at or after 24 weeks' gestation and weighing more than 600 g were occasionally surviving. (16)

Current publications appear to document clearly that viability is possible at 24 weeks, and may occasionally occur at 23 weeks. (17) The World Health Organization has recognized this development and has changed its recommendation for the collection of perinatal data, establishing 22 weeks as the demarcation line between spontaneous abortion and birth. (18)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 07:50 am
In Nancy Pelosi's recent press conference she received what I believe to be the toughest grilling reporters have given anybody since inaugeration day. (A ray of hope that perhaps they are returning to being reporters instead of Obama's robed choir?)

Working strictly from memory--some facts may need to be amended or corrected here--I think I recall that Pelosi first did not mention any CIA briefing and denied being briefed on water boarding.

When it was pointed out that she was the ranking member on the committee to receive CIA briefings and the CIA records showed that she had been briefed, she then acknowledged that yes she was briefed but they didn't tell her about water boarding.

Then she changed her story that water boarding was explained to her but they didn't tell her that it would be used. She was dodging accusations that she never spoke up to protest the practice until 2007 when there was opportunity to damage the Bush administration.

Then she admitted that she approved a letter that Jane Harmon had sent protesting water boarding but it was noted that she did not sign it. (Harmon and Pelosi have been reported to really REALLY dislike each other.)

At the press conference she directly and explicity stated that the CIA misled her and Congress and told her that they were not using water boarding.

Panetta finally steps up to the plate, disputes that the CIA lied to her or Congress, and sends an official memo to personnel in the agency assuring them that it is not the CIA's practice or policy to mislead Congress and that Pelosi was indeed not told that the CIA was not using water boarding. Others have pointed out that they don't take congresspersons, including Pelosi, on tours of the facilities where enhanced interrogation takes place and explain to them that the facilities are just for show and aren't used.

In the immediate bru ha ha that ensued, Pelosi now is backtracking and saying that she never intended to criticize the CIA but rather intended to criticize the Bush administation.

Gives you a great deal of confidence in your elected leaders doesn't it?

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/varv05152009a20090515033258.jpg
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 08:11 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Panetta finally steps up to the plate, disputes that the CIA lied to her or Congress, and sends an official memo to personnel in the agency assuring them that it is not the CIA's practice or policy to mislead Congress and that Pelosi was indeed not told that the CIA was not using water boarding. Others have pointed out that they don't take congresspersons, including Pelosi, on tours of the facilities where enhanced interrogation takes place and explain to them that the facilities are just for show and aren't used.

Panetta told CIA employees in a message that agency records show CIA officers briefed lawmakers truthfully in 2002 on methods of interrogating terrorism suspects, but that it was up to Congress to reach its own conclusions about what and how that happened.

What exactly is 'conservative' here? Or not? (In all, not only my short response but your quote)
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 08:14 am
And despite the huge questions on his handling of the federal budget and the economy, we should give credit where credit is due. President Obama is getting some stuff right:

Quote:
Republicans salute Obama's military tack
Moves anger liberal Democrats
By Stephen Dinan (Contact)
Sunday, May 17, 2009

Even as congressional Democrats feuded last week with the CIA in what at times seemed to be a throwback to the 1970s, President Obama was headed in the other direction in what may have been his most active week yet as commander in chief.

He pushed through the House a spending bill to finance the war in Afghanistan and reversed himself, deciding to fight the release of photos purportedly showing humiliating treatment of detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Mr. Obama also announced he would have some detainees at the U.S. Naval Base Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, tried by military commissions, putting him at odds with much of his liberal political base, but winning striking praise from Republicans who contrasted his sober decisions against the accusations of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi that the CIA has lied to her and Congress continually.

"I think you see the difference between a man who understands the war and the threat and a politician who is bent on political revenge," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, South Carolina Republican.
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/17/republicans-salute-obama-military-tack/
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 08:34 am
@Foxfyre,
You forget to mention that Obama here clearly didn't follow the line he promised before the election.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 12:54 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

You forget to mention that Obama here clearly didn't follow the line he promised before the election.


sometimes things look different when ya get there.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 01:28 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
Yes, a bad promise kept is still a bad promise no matter how good the intentions were at the time it was made.

Who among us has never made a promise that when it was time to keep it we realized that we could not or should not?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 01:38 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
Yeah, I don't know of any president who didn't change their minds once they took over at the white house. Not only does situations changes since their campaign, but new info may be available that wasn't earlier. Best decisions are made with current info.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 02:03 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Yeah, I don't know of any president who didn't change their minds once they took over at the white house. Not only does situations changes since their campaign, but new info may be available that wasn't earlier. Best decisions are made with current info.


exactly. it's admirable to stick to your guns, but it's also smart to reserve the right to change your mind if conditions change.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 02:05 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Panetta finally steps up to the plate, disputes that the CIA lied to her or Congress, and sends an official memo to personnel in the agency assuring them that it is not the CIA's practice or policy to mislead Congress and that Pelosi was indeed not told that the CIA was not using water boarding. Others have pointed out that they don't take congresspersons, including Pelosi, on tours of the facilities where enhanced interrogation takes place and explain to them that the facilities are just for show and aren't used.

Panetta told CIA employees in a message that agency records show CIA officers briefed lawmakers truthfully in 2002 on methods of interrogating terrorism suspects, but that it was up to Congress to reach its own conclusions about what and how that happened.

What exactly is 'conservative' here? Or not? (In all, not only my short response but your quote)


Perhaps it is not a "CIA practice or policy" to mislead Congress because doing so is a crime. But the organization by its nature is highly secretive and extremely capable of covering up things they don't want Congress to know. Both the CIA and the DoD have been accused of withholding the truth from Congress in the past. Here's a relevant example:

Quote:
Working as a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) counter-proliferation intelligence officer in the 1980s, Richard Barlow learned that top U.S. officials were allowing Pakistan to manufacture and possess nuclear weapons, and that the A.Q. Khan nuclear network was violating U.S. laws. He also discovered that top officials were hiding these activities from Congress, since telling the truth would have legally obligated the U.S. government to cut off its overt military aid to Pakistan at a time when covert military aid was being funneled through Pakistan to Afghan jihadists in the war against the Soviets. Barlow's response: to organize the first interagency efforts to go after the A.Q. Khan nuclear network, well before it spread nuclear weapons to Iran, North Korea and Libya. After engineering the arrests of Khan's nuclear agents operating in the U.S. in 1987, Mr. Barlow was sent by high levels of the CIA to testify before Congress, where he revealed that certain members of the Reagan administration had been misleading Congress. Barlow's efforts to enforce the law and tell the truth caused Congress to come within an inch of terminating aid to Pakistan. As a result, he was persecuted as a traitor by some cold warriors in the CIA and State Department, shutting down his operations and clouding his future in the Agency.

In 1989, Mr. Barlow left to work for the Office of the Secretary of Defense under Dick Cheney. By this point the Soviets had withdrawn from Afghanistan, but top officials at the DoD continued to lie about Pakistan's nuclear program. Mr. Barlow objected. Because he merely suggested that Congress should know the truth, he became the target of one of the most vicious retaliatory smear campaigns in recent history, which ended his career as a government employee, ruined his marriage, and caused irreparable damage to his life. . . .


http://www.pogo.org/investigations/government-oversight/rbarlow.html
Advocate
 
  3  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 02:06 pm
@Foxfyre,
It is funny when you say that you can't remember exactly what Pelosi said a few days ago. At the same time, you expect Pelosi to remember exactly what she heard seven years ago. Why are the Reps so viciously going after women; first it is Hillary, and now it is Nancy?
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 02:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I think it is significant that Panetta was careful to say it is not the policy of the CIA to mislead congress, and not deny that it actually did in the past. We know that Tenet said that WMD was a slam-dunk, and it misled on the Plame matter.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 02:10 pm
@Foxfyre,
There is no doubt that O is a pragmatist, and not an idealogue.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 02:23 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

Perhaps it is not a "CIA practice or policy" to mislead Congress because doing so is a crime.


geee, maybe that's why they aren't admitting it?

i feel for panetta. talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

maybe i should say, stuck between Iraq and a hard place.


DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 02:24 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

There is no doubt that O is a pragmatist, and not an idealogue.


one of the things i like about him.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 02:24 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

It is funny when you say that you can't remember exactly what Pelosi said a few days ago. At the same time, you expect Pelosi to remember exactly what she heard seven years ago. Why are the Reps so viciously going after women; first it is Hillary, and now it is Nancy?


If she can't remember, she should say that she couldn't remember instead of making up story after story hoping one of them would be believable. And she shouldn't have been pushing for a witchhunt in the Bush administration. AND if she was briefed she should have been raising objections to enhanced interrogations when she was briefed instead of waiting years later after multiple votes approving budgets for the program.

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/5-11-09witchRGB20090511071121.jpg
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 02:38 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
DontTreadOnMe wrote:

Debra Law wrote:

Perhaps it is not a "CIA practice or policy" to mislead Congress because doing so is a crime.


geee, maybe that's why they aren't admitting it?

i feel for panetta. talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

maybe i should say, stuck between Iraq and a hard place.




And lookie here--from the evil lips of House Minority Leader John Boehner:

“Lying to the Congress of the United States is a crime,” Boehner said Sunday on CNN’s State of the Union. “And if the Speaker is accusing the CIA and other intelligence officials of lying or misleading the Congress, then she should come forward with evidence and turn that over to the Justice Department [and good luck with that -- Twisted Evil -- because the evidence of this crime is in the exclusive control of the CIA and the CIA might alter it or erase it like the CIA erased 92 video tapes depicting their unlawful torture of a detainee--muhahahaha].”

0 Replies
 
 

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