55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 08:35 pm
@parados,
parados, I think you low-balled Bush's budget number. Here's an article from the NYT:

Quote:
February 4, 2008
Bush Seeks Budget of $3.1 Trillion
By DAVID STOUT and ROBERT PEAR

WASHINGTON " President Bush submitted a federal budget of $3.1 trillion on Monday, declaring that the spending plan would keep the United States safe and prosperous and, despite its record size, would adhere to his principle of letting Americans keep as much of their own money as possible.

“Thanks to the hard work of the American people and spending discipline in Washington, we are now on a path to balance the budget by 2012,” the president said in an introductory message. “Our formula for achieving a balanced budget is simple: Create the conditions for economic growth, keep taxes low and spend taxpayer dollars wisely or not at all.”


Interesting isn't it? Bush spends 3.1 trillion and we have no tea party. LOL
Obama spends 3 trillion to save our economy from collapse, and they have a tea party because ...............
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 08:41 pm
@cicerone imposter,
And Texas wants to secede, because?

From FOX News:
Quote:
Governor Says Texans May Want to Secede From Union But Probably Won't
Texas Gov. Rick Perry fired up an anti-tax "tea party" with his stance against the federal government and for states' rights.

AP

Wednesday, April 15, 2009

Texas Gov. Rick Perry fired up an anti-tax "tea party" Wednesday with his stance against the federal government and for states' rights as some in his U.S. flag-waving audience shouted, "Secede!"

An animated Perry told the crowd at Austin City Hall -- one of three tea parties he was attending across the state -- that officials in Washington have abandoned the country's founding principles of limited government. He said the federal government is strangling Americans with taxation, spending and debt.


They wouldn't understand irony if it smacked them in the face.
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 08:45 pm
Liberals are not encouraged to read the following because it points out Williams' stated governmental futility Re efforts to effect, well, anything positive with even a hint of intended consequence. There is a positive note in that private industry has, again, thru deviousness or just plain clear thinking, accompanied by the unintentional beneficence of governmental meddling, seen a way to make a profit without any additional labor...not unlike many, many, of our fellow private citizens. In the bargain we find a delicious environmental and alternative fuel fantasy twist, another governmental unintention, if one can imagine.
Quote:
Alternative Fuel Folly
By KIMBERLEY A. STRASSEL

Every so often Washington throws out a controversy that brilliantly illustrates everything wrong with Washington. Consider the brewing outrage over "black liquor."

Barbara KelleyThis is the tale of how a supposedly innocuous federal subsidy to encourage "alternative energy" has, in a few short years, ballooned into a huge taxpayer liability and a potential trade dispute, even as it has distorted markets and led to greater fossil-fuel use. Think of it as a harbinger of the unintended consequences that will accompany the Obama energy revolution.

Back in 2005, Congress passed a highway bill. In its wisdom, it created a subsidy that gave some entities a 50-cents-a-gallon tax credit for blending "alternative" fuels with traditional fossil fuels. The law restricted which businesses could apply and limited the credit to use of fuel in motor vehicles.

Not long after, some members of Congress got to wondering if they couldn't tweak this credit in a way that would benefit specific home-state industries. In 2007, Congress expanded the types of alternative fuels that counted for the credit, while also allowing "non-mobile" entities to apply. This meant that Alaskan fish-processing facilities, for instance, which run their boilers off fish oil, might now also claim the credit.

What Congress apparently didn't consider was every other industry that might qualify. Turns out the paper industry has long used something called the "kraft" process to make paper. One byproduct is a sludge called "black liquor," which the industry has used for decades to fuel its plants. Black liquor is cost-effective, makes plants nearly self-sufficient, and, most importantly (at least for this story), definitely falls under Congress's definition of an "alternative fuel."

All of which has allowed the paper industry to start collecting giant federal payments for doing nothing more than what it has done for decades. And in fairness, why not? If Congress is going to lard up the tax code with thousands of complex provisions designed to "encourage" behavior, it shouldn't be surprised when those already practicing said behavior line up for their reward, too.

In March, International Paper announced it had received $71 million from the feds for a one-month period last fall. The company is on track to claim as much as $1 billion in 2009. Verso took in nearly $30 million from the operation of just one mill in one quarter of last year. Other giants are gearing up to realize their own windfalls. Wall Street has gone wild, pushing paper-company stocks up dramatically in recent weeks.

Happy as industry is to have this new federal lifeline in the middle of a recession, it is the only one smiling. Foreign competitors are screaming that the subsidy is unfairly propping up the U.S. industry in tough times. They claim the U.S. industry is ramping up production simply to realize more tax money. Canadian forestry firms are already demanding their government file a trade complaint.

In order to qualify for the credit, alternative fuel must be mixed with a taxable one. (The government might want to encourage alternative fuels, but not to the extent that it loses its gas-tax revenue.) This means that to qualify, the paper industry must mix some diesel with its black liquor. This has sent environmentalists around the bend. They have accused the industry of burning fossil fuels that it didn't used to burn, simply to get the tax dollars. (The industry has not been clear on whether it is, in fact, using more diesel.)

And then there's Congress, which is suddenly looking at billions more in red ink than expected. In 2007 it estimated a 15-month extension of the credit would cost taxpayers $333 million. It has since revised those numbers to take into account black liquor and is now figuring a one-year cost of more than $3 billion. Wall Street analysts are talking $6 billion. Senate Finance Committee bosses Max Baucus and Charles Grassley are reportedly aware of the issue, none too happy, and they are working to bar the paper industry from receiving the credit.

But this, in turn, has tossed up uncomfortable questions. The paper industry argues that if the government is going to be in the business of rewarding good behavior, it ought to do it equally. Is green policy only to be aimed at dirty or economically unviable actors? Is black liquor any less useful than ethanol or biodiesel, and if so why? If not, shouldn't Washington encourage its use? Isn't every green subsidy in fact the basis for a trade dispute? These are questions Congress has no interest in confronting, since it would expose the muddle that is its entire green-energy program.

All of this is highly amusing, if not surprising. Every government attempt to manage energy markets has resulted in similar disarray. Look at the havoc that came from the energy price controls, regulations and subsidies of the 1970s. Or look, more recently, at the ethanol fiasco, and the accompanying soaring food costs. Energy powers the economy. Mess with energy markets, and mess with everything else. When will Washington learn?

Write to [email protected]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993344387627879.html

Is this a great country, or what? Wink

JM
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 09:21 pm
@JamesMorrison,
Our government's record on energy has been dismal, but we must remember that many government subsidized R&D at our universities produce products that eventually creates jobs.

Anybody looking at government involvement as a big failure will not see all the advances our country has made simply because of government involvement.

You can accept that for what it's worth.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 10:37 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
Because "Joe the Plumber" is the leading spokesperson for the modern conservative movement and the GOP


You say its "Joe the Plumber", others say its Rush Limbaugh.

It cant be both, so which is it?


I said leading spokesperson, not radio talk show host faux leader. When I'm talking about Limbaugh, I'll say so.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 10:38 pm
@JamesMorrison,
Quote:
Alternative Fuel Folly
By KIMBERLEY A. STRASSEL
......
....
All of this is highly amusing, if not surprising. Every government attempt to manage energy markets has resulted in similar disarray. Look at the havoc that came from the energy price controls, regulations and subsidies of the 1970s. Or look, more recently, at the ethanol fiasco, and the accompanying soaring food costs. Energy powers the economy. Mess with energy markets, and mess with everything else. When will Washington learn?

Write to [email protected]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993344387627879.html
Is this a great country, or what? Wink
JM
[/quote]

cicerone imposter wrote:
Our government's record on energy has been dismal, but .....

Imposter, never truer words spoken by you!
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 11:06 pm
I was flipping through channels and caught Hannity and his FOX Girl Chorus sniveling and whining about what people are saying about their glorious tax day protest. The crux of their whinefest is that they have a "First Amendment" right to protest, but others apparently do NOT have a co-equal right to state how laughable, despicable, and hypocritical they were. Hannity, who represents the antithesis of journalistic integrity, accused NBC of a lack of journalistic integrity and demanded an apology from NBC for allowing Jenean Garafolo to express her opinion.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 08:29 am
@mysteryman,
Between Rush and Joe the [non]Plumber, I would say Rush is the leader of the conservatives. No one on the right dares criticize Rush, unless he or she is willing to later kowtow to him and be his bitch.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 09:23 am
@JamesMorrison,
Quote:
Really? Just as there are more ways to be dead (or not living) in this world than there are to exist ,there surely must be more important things in the lives of tea party participant's lives than "how low the tide of Conservatism is at this moment". So given your proposal ,so advanced, why would these people fixate upon such an abstract concept such as 'Conservatisim' (or liberalism, socialism, or compassionate conservatism for that matter)? Why cannot you take them at their word (too much government control of and government debt accumulation in their lives)? Why deny them their Constitutional right of free speech by calling them, in effect, liars? Indeed, why do you insist that their simple and impulsive outcry has sinister ulterior motives? Given the outpouring of their opinion, can you at least grant them the status of patriots of the loyal opposition? If not, why?


JM, the truth is that we are not seeing anything new. Bush ran up hundreds of billions in deficits and wasted tons of money. Bush's guys designed the TARP program and gave away hundreds of billions to companies last year. But none of you guys were out there protesting Republicans - not even a little, no matter what Fox says. No, you sat at home on tax day last year.

It wasn't until the Democrats took over, that you suddenly became so goddamn concerned about the direction of our country. Therein lies the hypocrisy. You aren't concerned about running deficits, hell, for years you and others have defended running deficits. You are concerned about Dems running the country. Just be honest about it.

If you have paid any attention at all to these groups and gatherings, they are as anti-Obama as they are anti-taxes. You are choosing to focus only on the tax issue, b/c it meshes the best with your explanation of things. You ought to take a broader look.

Quote:

This is not "a fact" . Their complaint is much more sinister to liberals. They say government is getting too large and too much into their lives. Cyclops ,if you wish to defeat your enemy you must understand its true motives first. Obama is committing the same error RE Iran and DPRK, but that's another thread altogether.


Your case would be a lot stronger if you had some sort of record of success to point to, when your party was running things. Surely you understand the hole bush as put you in!

Obama hasn't grown government, and this is a fact, 1/10th as much as Bush did. Between Medicare part D, the DHS, the NSA spying on your life all the time; the size and intrusiveness of government exploded under Bush. Once again, none of you protested, not even for a minute. This is why we don't take you seriously - you have winked and nodded at the very things you protest now, under your leadership. It is highly suspect to the rest of America that now is the moment you choose to get all huffy about the things your chosen leaders did for years.

I do not predict that these protests will have any real meaningful effect upon American politics in the coming years. You should get used to this; those of us on the Left who protested Iraq and torture certainly have gotten used to that fact.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 09:24 am
@Debra Law,
Actually, the conservatives have "many" leaders that includes Limbaugh. Their leadership group is Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, joe the plumber, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, and Beuner. Their problem is that they are all splintered into their special interest groups, and really don't have one voice as their leader.

Really comical to watch.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 09:26 am
@cicerone imposter,
I see JM is still at it; didn't he see that Bush's last budget was 3.1 trillion dollars?

A bunch of hypocrites.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 09:38 am
@cicerone imposter,
Yes and we conservatives protested that on A2K and elsewhere too, especially when the Democratic Congress added 21 more billion in discretionary spending than the President requested. For those who have forgotten their 6th grade history, it is Congress that passes the budget. The President does sign off on it. And then it is Congress, in authorization bills, that allocates who and how much anybody gets of the general broad guidelines outlined in the budget. The President has to sign off on those bills too. Should the President veto any of those Congress passes, he would certainly be punished by not having his pet projects funded. And Congress knows if they don't fund the President's pet projects, then he has no incentive to sign off on theirs. Pretty much quid pro quo.

And THAT is why the budget, year after year, gets bigger and bigger until it threatens to overwhelm our economy. And that is why all of us should be looking really hard at modern American conservative principles re policy, spending, and powers of government.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 09:46 am
@Foxfyre,
Fox.. Maybe you didn't pay attention in 6th grade.

The President presents a budget before Congress votes on the budget.

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 09:55 am
@parados,
The President does present a budget because he is Commander in Chief of the military and CEO over all government agencies; therefore the funding requests go to him for review before they go to the Congress. And he adds on additional requests for projects he wants to accomplish.

Most Congresses pretty much have declared the President's budget dead on arrival when it arrives in the House, however, more especially if the President is of a party different from the majority in the House. I think I said earlier that the President approves the budget. He doesn't. The budget is not law, but is the framework that the House and Senate agree on.

Once they agree on the budget, the money is actually allocated via the authorization bills and these the President does sign off on. They don't originate with him at all but rather originate in Congress and must be signed off by the House and Senate before they go to the President.

The President cannot legally spend a single dime of government money without authorization from Congress to do so.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 09:58 am
@cicerone imposter,
And Obama's budget is $3.6 trillion.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123870974208284245.html

If Bush's budget was too large and created to much debt, isnt it fair to assume that Obama's will do the same thing.

And since everyone from the CBO, the GAO, and other groups, INCLUDING the President himself all say that his budget will cause the national deficit to increase

Quote:
The already out of control deficit of the United States federal government will become even worse in the coming years, President-Elect warned Americans this week. He said they face ““trillion-dollar deficits for years to come” and that Americans should prepare for it.

One of the main reasons for the stark assessment is that Obama wants to invest heavily in the U.S. economy during his years in office. The most sober plans anticipate $700 billion in extra investments while many believe the investments will end up in the trillions of dollars.


http://www.poligazette.com/2009/01/07/obama-warns-deficit-will-increase-significantly/

So if Obama spends so much, and causes the national debt to increase so much, how is that showing any kind of fiscal responsibility?

According to the CBO, Obama's numbers dont add up regarding his pledge to cut the deficit in half.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/mar/25/judd-gregg/judd-gregg-says-obamas-budget-doubles-national-deb/


Quote:
The Congressional Budget Office projections " released a month later " were not as optimistic. The CBO, a nonpartisan arm of Congress, projected the 2009 deficit at $1.8 trillion, and forecast it would taper down to $672 billion in 2013, then to $749 billion in 2014. Still, even those numbers support Obama's assertion that he'd halve the deficit.

So technically, Obama is correct. But it's a bit misleading.

When Obama says he will halve the deficit, he's comparing it to a 2009 deficit that is massive and far, far above the norm. It's a deficit fueled by a major recession (translation: lost tax revenue) and boosted by costly recession-fixers like the bailouts last fall and the economic stimulus package passed in February. For comparison purposes, we note that the deficit in 2008 was $459 billion (and less than half that the year before). So the deficit is expected to nearly quadruple in 2009.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/mar/25/barack-obama/obama-promises-cut-deficit-half-four-years/

So while it may be true that repubs didnt complain when Bush ran up the deficit, it is also true that dems and others on the left seem to be applauding the fact that Obama is going to massively increase the deficit.

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 09:58 am
Currently we are currently working on the budget and appropriations bills passed last year:

Figures on government spending and debt
Friday April 17, 2009, 7:45 pm EDT

Total public debt subject to limit April 16 11,125,587
Statutory debt limit 12,104,000
Total public debt outstanding April 16 11,183,899
Operating balance April 16 257,351
Interest fiscal year 2009 thru February 148,762
Interest same period 2008 198,518
Deficit fiscal year 2009 thru February 764,525
Deficit same period 2008 264,541
Receipts fiscal year 2009 thru February 860,877
Receipts same period 2008 967,153
Outlays fiscal year 2009 thru February 1,625,402
Outlays same period 2008 1,231,694
Gold assets in March 11,041
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Figures-on-government-apf-14962798.html?.v=2
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 09:59 am
@Foxfyre,
You fail to mention that the Rep-controlled House and Senate voted in lockstep with the Bush administration. The iron discipline of the Republicans is amazing, and is the only reason that the party will once again gain power. The Dems do not begin to have this discipline, which may be their downfall.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 10:03 am
@Advocate,
And your comment fails to acknowledge that the Republicans have controlled neither the House nor the Senate for more than two years now, and if you think the GOP voted in lockstep with the Bush administration, I have several really good remedial reading courses to recommend to you. It is true that neither President Bush nor the GOP controlled Congress during most of his administration showed much fiscal restraint at all and we hollered to high heaven about it. I doubt a single person on the conservative side in this thread did not complain about that.

And yes, when the GOP, once out of power, began complaining about Democratic excesses, it looked very empty and hypocritical. Just as the Democrats now look hypocritical complaining about the Bush administration doing what they are also doing, not to mention they come across as pretty juvenile.

In my opinion it was precisely abandonment of conservative principles and values that caused the GOP to lose their majority status in 2006. I inferred that pretty much in my opening post for the thread.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 10:13 am
@Debra Law,
Quote:
Hannity, who represents the antithesis of journalistic integrity,


You are aware that Hannity is not now, nor has he ever, been a journalist.
He has never claimed to be a journalist, he simply gives his opinions.

If you think Hannity was speaking for all conservatives, then can we assume you agree with Jenean Garafolo when she said that EVERYONE that took part in the protests were racist?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 10:22 am
Quote:
t is true that neither President Bush nor the GOP controlled Congress during most of his administration showed much fiscal restraint at all and we hollered to high heaven about it. I doubt a single person on the conservative side in this thread did not complain about that.


Did you protest in the streets about it? No? Why not? Your 'complaints' were very weak and hollow ones.

Quote:
And yes, when the GOP, once out of power, began complaining about Democratic excesses, it looked very empty and hypocritical.


Looked? Try 'looks.'

Cycloptichorn
 

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