55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 11:34 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

When you read stuff like that, you see the firm pronouncement of "Never again!" slowly shifting to "Could it happen again?"

But isn't that the way all dictatorships happen? It starts quietly and innocently with indoctrination of the young, gullible, passionate with highly virtuous and moral sounding rhetoric until sufficient loyaty and fanaticism has been created to make a bloody or bloodless coup possible. Then a charismatic, articulate, and attractive leader can step into power.

Impossible in the USA we say? Our founders certainly didn't think so. They cautioned that freedom requires constant vigilance and those who value it must be willing to fight for it. All we have to do to lose our Republic is to allow those in power to take away our freedoms, bit by bit, one by one, until one day we don't have enough will, courage, or power left to fight back.

Well said. Truer words seldom spoken.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 11:39 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Not a surprise, Walter.


Well, a surprise could be how much our party leader(s) [Blair and Brown] - leading the Democratic Socialistic Labour Party - are liked by conservatives in the USA Very Happy
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 11:40 am
@okie,
Sounds to me like religion. LOL
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 11:46 am
@Walter Hinteler,
MACs like MACean views of less power to the government, more power to the people, free markets, personal freedoms, more choices, accountability, and appreciation for effectiveness, efficiency, and intelligent use of available resources. Whatever political group they use to identify themselves, any time your leaders or the UK leaders or anybody's leaders share such views, they will be appreciated. And when they don't, they will likely be criticized or at least the effects of the error of their ways will be pointed out.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 11:53 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

Oh? Do they have freedom fries with their schnitzel?


No, but demonstrate againts foreigners, immigrants and refugees (plus violently attack them), anti-abortion hooligans ...

Actually, (especially in the East [see the original report]) most youth aren't members of the neo-nazi-parties but are members of right-wing youth groups that are not part of the organized extreme right. (In total, about 30,000 Germans are 'hard-line' sympathisers of Neo-Nazi parties according to data by the federal and states' domestic intelligence agencies - the UK's BNP has more than 20,000 members.)
McGentrix
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 11:54 am
@Walter Hinteler,
How are you a member of the UK Labour party? They just let anyone in or what?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 11:56 am
@Foxfyre,
Are you referring to the leaders of the (English and Welsh) Labour Party here? Shocked

If 'yes', did you ever read anything they wrote ... in party magazines, not what "your" sources said they wrote?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 11:58 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I wasn't referring to any particular persons nor any particular political or social groups. I am more interested in the principles behind wise and sound sociopolitical policies and points of view than I am political affiliations. I don't recall mentioning any sources about either the English or Welsh Labour Partys. I don't recall mentioning the English or Welsh Labour Party for that matter.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 11:59 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

When you read stuff like that, you see the firm pronouncement of "Never again!" slowly shifting to "Could it happen again?"

But isn't that the way all dictatorships happen? It starts quietly and innocently with indoctrination of the young, gullible, passionate with highly virtuous and moral sounding rhetoric until sufficient loyaty and fanaticism has been created to make a bloody or bloodless coup possible. Then a charismatic, articulate, and attractive leader can step into power.

Impossible in the USA we say? Our founders certainly didn't think so. They cautioned that freedom requires constant vigilance and those who value it must be willing to fight for it. All we have to do to lose our Republic is to allow those in power to take away our freedoms, bit by bit, one by one, until one day we don't have enough will, courage, or power left to fight back.

Well said. Truer words seldom spoken.


Like the 4th amendment? You didn't seem too concerned before.

Cycloptichorn
McGentrix
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 12:00 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

McGentrix wrote:

Oh? Do they have freedom fries with their schnitzel?


No, but demonstrate againts foreigners, immigrants and refugees (plus violently attack them), anti-abortion hooligans ...

Actually, (especially in the East [see the original report]) most youth aren't members of the neo-nazi-parties but are members of right-wing youth groups that are not part of the organized extreme right. (In total, about 30,000 Germans are 'hard-line' sympathisers of Neo-Nazi parties according to data by the federal and states' domestic intelligence agencies - the UK's BNP has more than 20,000 members.)


I don't see any of those things as "American conservative ideals". Maybe the problem is that you don't know what "American conservative ideals" actually are? Could it be another translation issue?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 12:09 pm
@okie,
McGentrix wrote:

How are you a member of the UK Labour party? They just let anyone in or what?


I never said such but

I wrote:
Perhaps you know, okie, that I'm a "kind of" member of the Labour Party (the main reason is that this party is more socialistc than our Social-Democrat Party here in Germany).

[/quote]

I'm a member of a European group of friends of the Labour Party. The Labour Party is one of the few European parties that don't accept foreigners (but Irish citizens can join). [Our local party organisation of the Social Democratic Party has five English members besides a couple of more nationalities.])

I am, however, (legally) a member of the Fabian Society, and thus have perhaps more influence in party politics than being a member of Little Puddelton Labour Party. (Additionally, the ratio of 400 Fabian MPs, MEPs, Peers, MSPs and AMs to just a bit more than 5,000 members isn't bad, too.)
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 12:13 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
There have been numerous cases of violations of the 4th amendment, but not as you seem to be suggesting.

In Kansas (during the Carter administration), the IRS accused a contractor of tax violations. His files and bank accounts were seized or frozen and IRS agents started asking questions of the contractor's friends, employees, associates, customers, and suppliers. Both customers and suppliers became nervous as to whether the contractor would complete the work and/or pay his financial obligations and bailed out. Then, after the contractor's reputation and finances were in shambles and he was effectively ruined, the government informed him that whoops, no tax violations. Forget the whole thing. Was he compensated for the financial and personal grief the government brought down on him? Nope.

About that same time a fisherman working in the gulf was suspected of drug trafficking and his boat, full of fish, was impounded. For several longs months those fish rotted in the hold and the fisherman was denied his means of supporting himself, until finally the DEA dismissed all charges and released the now ruined boat, as it turned out, to the bankruptcy court. Was the fisherman compensated for the error? Nope.

That kind of thing every responsible American should be railing against and demanding correction.

The government taking whatever means it needs to take to protect us against those who would do the worst kind of violence to our persons and our property is not a violation of the Fourth Amendment, however, and is a Constitutionally mandated function of government. Unless you can identify a single person who has incurred any harm or violation of privacy as a result of those actions, or unless you can point to a single criminal charge that anybody was able to make stick, there is simply no case for a Fourth Amendment violation there.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 12:15 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Again Walter, the definitions of 'liberal' and 'conservative', 'left' and 'right' and the various political parties in Europe compared to ours, as well as our forms of government, are too different to draw close distinctions in the way that you seem to be drawing them.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 12:23 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:


The government taking whatever means it needs to take to protect us against those who would do the worst kind of violence to our persons and our property is not a violation of the Fourth Amendment, however, and is a Constitutionally mandated function of government. Unless you can identify a single person who has incurred any harm or violation of privacy as a result of those actions, or unless you can point to a single criminal charge that anybody was able to make stick, there is simply no case for a Fourth Amendment violation there.


Bullshit. When the gov't invokes the State Secrets act to get these cases removed from court, it does not constitute proof that the gov't was not in fact breaking the law; just proof that it can use it's power to avoid prosecution for doing so.

Cycloptichorn
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 12:25 pm
@Foxfyre,
Fine. But nevertheless - the Labour Party is a socialist party, the Social-Democratic Party (of Germany) is ... what the name says - and both are members of the Socialist International, whatever the name is YOU give that organisations.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 12:38 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
You're confusing me with somebody else Walter. I have not been focused or defining or giving names to any political parties in Europe this morning--I don't think I have EVER focused on defining or giving names to any European political parties except as a matter of curiosity or perhaps in a cursory manner.

I don't know enough about political parties in Europe to discuss them competently, and at this time I don't care enough about the differences between European political parties to take the time to educate myself on those at this time. I do know that the terms you use to define your parties do frequently have different meanings for you than they do for us when we attach them to groups over here. Example: you see the Nazi Party as extreme right. Probably no argument about that over there. Here, as we have already illustrated on this thread, conservatives understand that Nazism is a far leftist philosophy while some liberals here would still describe it as 'right' however much they can't defend their opinion about that.

I am interested in basic philosophy and law regarding free trade, personal freedoms, human rights, economic principles, and values that affect us all and that does include you folks on your side of the pond too.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 12:47 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Your opinion is noted Cyclop. If you have credible evidence to back it up, post it and probably some will wish to discuss it. I've already spent as much time on that particular subject as I care to spend right now, and I am 100% convinced that our government has not violated any of my or anybody else's rights or privacy in their efforts to defend the country. Even years ago, when the government did (I'm pretty sure) put a tap on my phone, I didn't resent it because I understood the reason for it. Had they done that without justifiable cause, however, then I would have been concerned.

0 Replies
 
babsatamelia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 12:51 pm
Bush personally(with some help from other "basic conservatives" cronies of his in the legislature) LED THE WAY for the Republican party to fall into an overwhelmingly massive disfavor with the majority of Americans.But NOT due to a lack of sticking to what's considered "basic conservative ideas & principles." but rather it is DUE TO those outdated "basic GOP conservative brands of thought" whiche is, in itself, so grossly out of tune with Americans today. In fact - as I see it - it's precisely because of this brand of selfish, self centered, fear-based attitude of: "Let's each grab up any & every dollar we can get our paws on, before someone else gets it. The idea of conservative thought" has this huge fatal flaw within it based on fear. A nameless fear of
there never being enough to go around, someone will have to do without,and it won't be me or mine. And then they all "snatch up all they can get a hold of from this season's budget" in our legislatures - with NO thought for the nation as a whole, only thoughts of their own fear, or their re election campaigns.
This leads to senseless PORK programs that states grasp at based on the one simple premise that there is never enough to go around...and we will always have to live in fear of being left out in the cold, so everyone will be grabbing, grasping, caring for no one but their own simple selves & their own interests, money honestly might BE the root of all the evil (ie. pain, misery, the suffering, the hungry, the homeless) Forget Medicare's needs!!Or Social Security's or education & the healthcare needs of our nation as a whole!! The more debt we're in as a nation is good for the economy, right? Wrong! This all reminds me of how the basis of a nation can exist on this fear-based conservativism that is SO limiting; our future as a nation has been stunted & deformed. When the idealogy of a party ceases to even remotely remember their PRIMARY duty IS & ALWAYS SHOULD BE TO SERVE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE! To Americans whom they represent! That manner of thinking, of leading an entire prosperous nation of people into a morass of fearful & unthinking idiots - was this the GOP plan??? A useless gov't for a thoughtless populace.The GOP is akin to the SS in Hitler's Germany. An evil organization that is solely dedicated to instilling nothing but FEAR into the minds of all American people. Ever since that first sick, flawed,openly unjust election that placed Gov Bush into the office of the Presidency that he FAILED to earn - our country has gone downhill on such a rapid scale that it's criminal! Look at those rich sons of b*****es bailing out of Wall Street with their HUGE parachutes leaving the rest of the poor,huddled masses to fend for themselves after they sucked us dry. THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY RIGHT THERE!!! They left us in the lurch, holding the empty bag, stealing away in the night with the lifetime earnings of millions of good people tucked under their belts. Like war criminals of Germany fleeing for South America with the huge windfalls of money they'd finally squeezed from the prosperous who they conquered.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 01:28 pm
@babsatamelia,
babs, Spot on! Their message of fear has fallen off the cliff, but the 20% or so of conservatives who rely on fear of socialism, taxation, spreading the wealth to the richest amongst us, and Obama, are out-of-tune with the majority of Americans. They sort of represent the Nazis of the US; fears of the unknowns. I believe most Americans are moderates who believes that we can all gain in our standard of living by keeping our country healthy (universal health care) and well educated (free or almost free education through college).
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 02:22 pm
The solution for how to save our Constitutional Republic is not to repeatedly sound alarms and repeatedly give the reasons for those alarms. The solution is to impeach President Obama. He is continually transferring wealth from those persons and organizations that lawfully earned it to those persons and organizations that have not earned it.

Socialist liberals are greedy for equal wealth. They allege it OK to have their government steal, by means of unequal tax rates, from the more productive in order to make the wealth of the more productive litlle more, if anything more, than is the wealth of the less productive.

Socialist liberals resent examination of the consequences of what they advocate. They are greedy to prevent such examination. They think it desireable to suppress the wealth of the more productive, even though that makes less wealth available for the less productive as well as for the more productive. They don't care if that ultimately leads to a whole lot less wealth for people to steal or earn. In summary, what we're learning about socialist liberals is the fact that stopping others from earning more is to them worth themselves earning less.

MACs (i.e., Modern American Conservatives) desire to improve their capabilities and conditions by their own efforts. MALs (i.e., Modern American Liberals) are socialist liberals. MALs want to equalize the capabilities and conditions of everyone by their own efforts. MACs want everyone to prosper. MALs want everyone to be suppressed to an equal economic level, regardless of what that level turns out to be. MACs are greedy for every one’s growth, because they know that will enable them all to grow faster. MALs are greedy for everyone’s conformity, because they know that prevents differences.

 

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