AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

It's not so much blah blah blah, but he has his percentages confused by mixing apples and oranges. When the economy is as it it now, raising taxes is bad - BUT, raising taxes for the rich is NOT BAD. The reason? Well, it's very simple; they didn't pay for the huge deficit that we are transferring to our children and grandchildren; they want to keep all their money, and not pay for the growth of government under BUSH! Surprise! Obama said 95% of the workers will get a TAX CUT! wow! Yup, 95% are getting tax cuts. AMAZING!

That Beck guy is really confused. LOL

Except...

You do realize the deficit is growing now, under Obama, much more than it grew under Bush, or any other US president? Including the entire funding for the Iraq War?

His 'Stimulus Bill' is simply a spending bill, as we have discovered in CA. Only eight percent of Fed money from the 'stimulus' coming into the state is going to infrastructure; the rest is going to entitlement spending.

And good for Obama and the dems. But it sure hasn't worked out as they advertised so far.

As small business owners continue to close shop (the 'rich', according to the new class warfare standards) jobs are continuing to be lost. So sure, let's continue to tax those business owners and others who might be able to pull us out of the drain we're rapidly circling.

Look at CA, ci. Taxes, entitlements, a difficult business environment. Once again, we're trendsetters...

1 Reply

@okie,

You're a funny guy, okie. You pick out one term, declare that this is exactly the same term Hitler has used, and therefore, by implication, you'd have us believe that Obama might just be some kind of modern-day-Hitler.

You've done this in the past, when claimed that "Volksgemeinschaft" was a term commonly used by communists. You've also done it when you claimed that Michelle Obama's use of the terms "the world as it is" and "the world as it should be" was indicative of her Marxist ideology, as only Marxists and radicals used those specific terms. I remember that I posted a couple of speeches by Condoleezza Rice in reply, which contained exactly the same phrase.

Now you're doing it again. Well, have at it. For your reference, here are the opening paragraphs of the Wikipedia article on that particular term. Might be interesting to see who else made use of this term, and what those people or political parties understood it to mean.

Quote:

Third Way (centrism)

The Third Way is a term that has been used to describe a variety of political philosophies of governance that embrace a mix of market and interventionist philosophies. Third Way approaches are commonly viewed as representing a centrist compromise between capitalism and socialism, or between market liberalism and democratic socialism. However, proponents of third way philosophies often claim that the third way represents a synthesis of these competing viewpoints, distinct from and superior to both of its sources, rather than simply a compromise or mixture. This claim is embodied in the alternative description of the Third Way as the Radical center.

Past invocations of a political 'third way', in this sense, have included the Fabian Socialism, Distributism, Keynesian economics, Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal, and Harold Macmillan's 1950s One Nation Conservatism. A "Third Way" approach has been adopted by some social democrats and social liberals in many Western liberal democracies.

Third Way policies were enacted in the 1980s in Australia by the Hawke/Keating Labor governments. The most recent prominent examples are the Obama and Clinton Administrations in the United States as well as presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, the Labour Party (New Labour) governments of the United Kingdom under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, the Liberal Party government of Canada under Jean Chrétien and Paul Martin, the Australian Labor Party under Kevin Rudd, the Polder Model in The Netherlands and the Democratic Party - demokraci.pl in Poland.

The Third Way rejects both socialism and laissez-faire approaches to economic governance, but chiefly stresses technological development, education, and competitive mechanisms to pursue economic progress and governmental objectives. One of its central aims is to protect the modern welfare state through reforms that maintain its economic integrity.

The third way has been criticized by some conservatives and libertarians who advocate laissez-faire capitalism. It has also been heavily criticized by many social democrats and democratic socialists in particular as a betrayal of left-wing values. The third way policies differ considerably between Europe and America, in America the third way refers to significantly more right-wing and laissez-faire policies than in Europe.

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@old europe,

oe, thanks for acknowledging the above. I have pointed out some of the above more than once. I have in fact argued with you that Hitler was a socialist, which you denied, but you now seem to admit. I remarked once that on a scale, socialism is to the left of capitalism or free markets, on the way to communism. I don't remember if it was you, but I was ridiculed for that obvious observation of logic. Franklin Roosevelt is indeed a good example of a Third Way, and perhaps there are many variations of a Third Way, and we know that Obama is an admirer of FDR, and often cites him in various contexts.

The reason Hitler is significant, he was a control freak, and this is how such personalities think. Only a few are as evil as Hitler, but egotistical personalities gravitate toward more controlling policies.

And I do believe words mean things, slogans mean things. Obama's change mantra meant something, lots more than people realize, and Michelle's use of the term, the world as it is and as it should be, yes, that is significant. I do not retract any of those things that I have pointed out.

My take on all of this, the markets tend to look down the road, and respond to future projections, the market took a big hit when it became likely Obama was going to win. My take the last few days, just speculation, but the market may come back, as people begin to realize more opposition is coalescing against Obama in his efforts to enact all of his change. Things like cap and trade, card check, health care reform, higher taxes. Obama's political capital is eroding, as of now. It will be tough sledding, but Americans are not dumb, they see all of this, the people that make the country work, those people are maybe, just maybe, beginning to hope Obama can be stymied to some extent. Inasmuch as that can happen, the markets and the economy will recover to some extent.

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@okie,

See, okie, the thing is: it's hard to discuss things when somebody randomly jumps up and cries "LOOK! He's another Hitler!!!"

Some of your other points may be warranted, some not.

It's just hard to focus on those when you're so fixated on trying to paint Obama in the worst possible colors. I mean, do you also think Tony Blair is an egotistical control freak, like Hitler, for propagating a 'Third Way'? Do you also think Condoleezza Rice is secretly a radical Marxist, because she, too, was talking about "the world as it is", "the world as it should be"?

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@Diest TKO,

Diest TKO wrote:

Quote:
I personally have no problem with helping folks get off the sauce or whatever and I don't mind some public funds being allocated for that purpose though I would prefer that it come from the private sector as much as possible. I do think this is a state and local issue and the feds should stay out of it.

What interest does the private sector have in helping people get off of drugs? Be careful with your answer Fox.

Fox was so careful with her answer to the degree that she just didn't answer.

T
K
O

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@okie,

You may wonder, okie, but a bit of knowledge of German and German history is quite valuable: there's quite some difference between "nationaler Soziallismus" (as seen in Europe at the end of the 19th century) and Hitler's "Nationalsozialismus".

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

You may wonder, okie, but a bit of knowledge of German and German history is quite valuable: there's quite some difference between "nationaler Soziallismus" (as seen in Europe at the end of the 19th century) and Hitler's "Nationalsozialismus".

Just ask any of the neo-nazi's that are popping up around Germany due to the economy. I am sure they would know all about it.

1 Reply

@McGentrix,

McGentrix wrote:

Just ask any of the neo-nazi's that are popping up around Germany due to the economy. I am sure they would know all about it.

You must have insider knowledge. I didn't know that - nor do any of those I know who are ... hmmm... are related to them professionally.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

McGentrix wrote:

Just ask any of the neo-nazi's that are popping up around Germany due to the economy. I am sure they would know all about it.

You must have insider knowledge. I didn't know that - nor do any of those I know who are ... hmmm... are related to them professionally.

Huh, I didn't think you would be that out of touch about what's going on in your own country. Maybe you should pay more attention to what's going on over there.

1 Reply

@McGentrix,

McGentrix wrote:

Huh, I didn't think you would be that out of touch about what's going on in your own country. Maybe you should pay more attention to what's going on over there.

Well, I do think that I know more what's going on the extreme right than most since two of my friends belong to those who .... ehem ... professionally, as said.

Besides that, I've done a bit of own research (as part of a research by our state parliament) on the right scene.

What are your - obviously better - sources?

1 Reply

@A Lone Voice,

Hey ALV, welcome to the thread.

There are several dynamics going on, I think. I expected the leftists to immediately jump on that Glenn Beck clip despite the fact that he didn't take a position in it. All he did is show how the polls are all over the map. When I watched those polling numbers, I could see what he was showing. I'm seeing the same kind of dichotomy in the Rasmussen daily polls these days.

What I draw from them:

1. If you strip away political affiliations, partisanship, and politics, most Americans are more conservative than liberal. (Something I've consistently said.) They want smaller, less costly, more efficient and effective government, personal freedom, and more ability to choose what they will do with their own money. They are not anti-government in any way, but they are not in favor of great, huge, growing, and ever more intrusive and expensive government.

2. The Republican Party violated its integrity and authority to promote solid conservative values and rightfully lost the trust of the American people. The visionary freshman class of 1994 accomplished some really good stuff and was on the right track, but by 2000 it had become as smug and complacent and self serving as the Democrats and too often violated the public trust. Again, if you're going to have liberal Democrats who believe in big, expensive government,you might as well vote for the real thing.

(Okay, you know and I know that we're still better off with Republicans who are strong on national defense, who are serious about national security, and who are serious about practical energy independence etc. and they are still better than the Democrats on that kind of stuff, but fiscally the GOP really was a mess.)

3. Barack Obama is a good looking, well spoken (as long as his teleprompter is working), charismatic person with the ability to make high sounding rhetoric feel visionary and the miracles and blessings he promised sound plausible. It is now very difficult for those caught up in the messianic fervor to acknowledge that he is not the savior they thought they had elected. So his approval ratings remain high even as approval of his agenda is steadily slipping.

At least that's the way I see it now and the way I read those polls. Fate and fortunes do change though, and conditions now may be very different in a year or two. If the economy turns around and conditions markedly improve, and the President can convince the people that his policies did that, they won't only give him the credit, they'll coronate him anew. I suspect at that time, it will only be the MACs (Modern American Conservatives) who will have a clue what happened.

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@old europe,

old europe wrote:

See, okie, the thing is: it's hard to discuss things when somebody randomly jumps up and cries "LOOK! He's another Hitler!!!"

Perhaps a point, however, if we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat. I am not comparing Obama to Hitler, but I am comparing some of the policies as being parallel. I am pointing out some common denominators that are red flags. Lefttists love to rail against capitalism and greed, just one glaring example, and this is a red flag. Hitler was known for that. And virtually all lefties of today do the same. Look at Chavez, a prime example. And dare I say, Obama is out there virtually every day railing against greed, and frankly I am sick of hearing it. After all, here is a guy that makes his living off of government, our tax monies, promising to give to voters, to gain votes, all in the interest for his greed for power.

Do not mis-interpret, I am not saying Obama is in the league of Hitler, but Obama does fit into the mindset of many of the ideas held by many despots and dictators. Since he is here in America, with hopefully enough checks and balances, hopefully we can vote the guy out next chance.

Quote:

Some of your other points may be warranted, some not.

It's just hard to focus on those when you're so fixated on trying to paint Obama in the worst possible colors. I mean, do you also think Tony Blair is an egotistical control freak, like Hitler, for propagating a 'Third Way'? Do you also think Condoleezza Rice is secretly a radical Marxist, because she, too, was talking about "the world as it is", "the world as it should be"?

Tony Blair does not fit the personality of a control freak, Neither does Rice, she has many conservative ideals. I have admired Condelezza Rice. You have to look at the personalities and the entire package deal of the people, oe. I do not believe I have gone to any extreme, as throughout this entire election cycle, I attempted to look at the most favorable potentials of Obama, but I also recognize the red flags. In fact, I hoped Obama would beat Clinton, and he did. There are a few things I have liked about Obama, and have said so, but as time goes on, I see the guy in a more negative light all the time. I believe he wants to turn left, very left, more than I hoped, but not more than I feared.

Also, you need to realize that most despots and dictators are not seen as bad or potentially bad by most people at the outset. Heck, Hitler was seen as the saviour of Germany, a guy that would restore respect to the country. As things degenerate however, events can bring out the worst in people's personalities. And I am telling you that I see alot of red flags in Obama's belief system and personality. Again, Obama is Obama, and it isn't fair to compare anyone to Hitler, but it is instructive to recognize red flags in politics. The lefties certainly tried to compare Bush to Hitler, in personality, which was utter nonsense. Bottom line, in 4 years, I hope we can vote Obama out. It will be tough, because he panders and plays on peoples emotions and fears. He uses class envy to the hilt. He will stay in campaign mode, not presidential mode. Unfortunately, that buys votes.

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@okie,

okie wrote:

Tony Blair does not fit the personality of a control freak, ..

Perhaps you know, okie, that I'm a "kind of" member of the Labour Party (the main reason is that this party is more socialistc than our Social-Democrat Party here in Germany).

One thing, Tony Blair was 'accused' of more than once is .... being a "control freak":

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

McGentrix wrote:

Huh, I didn't think you would be that out of touch about what's going on in your own country. Maybe you should pay more attention to what's going on over there.

Well, I do think that I know more what's going on the extreme right than most since two of my friends belong to those who .... ehem ... professionally, as said.

Besides that, I've done a bit of own research (as part of a research by our state parliament) on the right scene.

What are your - obviously better - sources?

Just what I read on the internet Walter. That's why I was surprised that you had no idea what is happening in your own country.

German teens drawn to neo-Nazi groups - study

It's a Reuters article, I don't think you can claim some right wing conspiracy involvement, but it is indeed interesting.

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@McGentrix,

Well, I've contributed my mite to that study.

When you read it in full (in German), you'll be surprised how many of your American conservative ideals are here thought to be a parameter for the neo-Nazi label ...

1 Reply

@McGentrix,

When you read stuff like that, you see the firm pronouncement of "Never again!" slowly shifting to "Could it happen again?"

But isn't that the way all dictatorships happen? It starts quietly and innocently with indoctrination of the young, gullible, passionate with highly virtuous and moral sounding rhetoric until sufficient loyaty and fanaticism has been created to make a bloody or bloodless coup possible. Then a charismatic, articulate, and attractive leader can step into power.

Impossible in the USA we say? Our founders certainly didn't think so. They cautioned that freedom requires constant vigilance and those who value it must be willing to fight for it. All we have to do to lose our Republic is to allow those in power to take away our freedoms, bit by bit, one by one, until one day we don't have enough will, courage, or power left to fight back.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Well, I've contributed my mite to that study.

When you read it in full (in German), you'll be surprised how many of your American conservative ideals are here thought to be a parameter for the neo-Nazi label ...

Oh? Do they have freedom fries with their schnitzel?

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@McGentrix,

McG evidently doesn't want to hear the truth; he can't handle the truth. The best he can do is try to make it into a joke. The jokes on him. LOL

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Just to be sure there is a foot in the door for discussion of MAC principles as they apply to the AIG scandal:

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/aria09031920090319014551.jpg

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Perhaps you know, okie, that I'm a "kind of" member of the Labour Party (the main reason is that this party is more socialistc than our Social-Democrat Party here in Germany).

Not a surprise, Walter.

2 Replies

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

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