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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:35 pm
@Lightwizard,
Lightwizard wrote:

That's addressing Mao and Stalin specifically in trying to establish that any social programs are communism and leading to a dictator who will start killing their own citizens for opposing their politics. That's different than calling them soldiers and getting rid of them in foreign wars we have no business fighting.


I've read this three times, but still can't figure out its meaning.

The tax rate tutorial omits a very significant fact - namely that in the past 40 years we have moved from an era in which most states had no income tax into one in which nearly all do - and the state tax rates are getting higher. In California, with the new proposals on the table, I will face a marginal total income tax rate (including estimates for the lost value of some exemptions) of about 51% - and that is not at all uncommon in most populous states.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:36 pm
@Debra Law,

That seems sensible.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:37 pm
@Lightwizard,
I think I have read most or at least excerpts of everything Walter Williams has written. I am 100% confident that I understand his world view and and am 100% confident that he has NEVER written anything that condoned, minimized, downplayed, or misrepresented anything related to Nazi history.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:39 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
The very wealthy have operators in the stock market who artificially pump up the market to get the middle class investor to buy. When the time is right, they pull the money out and take profits, but this time it backfired on them. They aren't really going to miss the small percentage of tax increase and we may not get much out of it either -- the tax write-offs are going to be big. The specialist who have been let go don't have much to say, but those still at Wall Street are squealing like a stuck pig. This is a mass psychology strategy and I don't think it's going to work any time soon.

The alternative is to get money to the middle class and loosen up credit so the consumer mood and market increase.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:40 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Saying that the policies ofLenin, Stalin et al were as cruel and inhumane and even more far reaching and resulted in more suffering and death than even those of Hitler IS NOT minimizing the cruelty and horrors of what the Nazis did. In fact it is using one of the most graphic examples one could think of as comparison for something horrible. It does require reading Walter Williams with an open mind and understanding what he is saying to understand that.


He isn't saying that but "makes even the horrors of Nazism pale in comparison". Ask one of your Jewish friend who had had relatives here about it.

Or any other serious person with an open mind and some knowledge of history.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:44 pm
@Lightwizard,
Why are conservatives so afraid to let the middle class have its share of any wealth? The middle class are the ones who make our economy tick. Without the middle class, no economy will last very long. Look at India; they've had the rich and poor problem for centuries, and they're a long way from equalization of their wealth.

Poverty is abundant in countries where they have only the haves and the have nots.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:47 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
"Pale in comparison" is not a synomym for trivializing or minimizing or lessening the severity or importance of, Walter. Saying that the power of the atomic bomb pales in comparison to the hydrogen bomb is not in any way minimizing the power of the atomic bomb.

Williams has said and would continue to say that Nazi policies were a human horror of great magnitude and for which there is no justification or defense of any kind. By using THAT as a comparison with the horrors done in the name of communism, he was only emphasizing the atrocities commited by Lenin, Stalin et al.

I understand that. I imagine most of the MACs here understand that. And I can't believe that is too complex a concept for the liberal mind either.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:49 pm
And here is somebody who understood the principle behind smart government policy re taxation:


Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:50 pm
@georgeob1,
You need a better tax accountant, but what do you suggest Ahnold and the California legislature do to stay in business? California is basically bankrupt.

I don't know what to tell you if you cannot comprehend the statement.



0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:56 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Lightwizard wrote:

That's addressing Mao and Stalin specifically in trying to establish that any social programs are communism and leading to a dictator who will start killing their own citizens for opposing their politics. That's different than calling them soldiers and getting rid of them in foreign wars we have no business fighting.


I've read this three times, but still can't figure out its meaning.

The tax rate tutorial omits a very significant fact - namely that in the past 40 years we have moved from an era in which most states had no income tax into one in which nearly all do - and the state tax rates are getting higher. In California, with the new proposals on the table, I will face a marginal total income tax rate (including estimates for the lost value of some exemptions) of about 51% - and that is not at all uncommon in most populous states.


On the other hand, you live in one of the most beautiful and desirable areas of the world, certainly of the US. You could choose to move to a lower tax area, but you have not done so. There must be some sort of calculus in your mind to make staying in the area worth the taxes you pay.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
They won't share it by hiring people or cease playing with smaller investors in the market. I know, if you can't take the heat in the kitchen, get out of the kitchen. Hmm -- with Wall Street, it isn't the heat, it's the freezing cold.

India's middle class is the poor. That's exactly where the neo-cons tried to put us, that's exactly where the retro-cons want to go. It's bait and switch, flaunting the law of attrition with hard sales technique to close the deal. They're crazy -- the fall of the middle class will be what I've state for years that the danger of a dictatorship is going to come from the right, not the left. The big MAC won't save it -- where's the beef?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 02:00 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I've read some dozen sites so far (google books offers quite a few sites).

I must admit that I stopped on page 26:

http://i41.tinypic.com/wrako7.jpg

I don't take someone serious who minimises the the cruelety and horrors of what the Nazis did.


Saying that the policies ofLenin, Stalin et al were as cruel and inhumane and even more far reaching and resulted in more suffering and death than even those of Hitler IS NOT minimizing the cruelty and horrors of what the Nazis did. In fact it is using one of the most graphic examples one could think of as comparison for something horrible. It does require reading Walter Williams with an open mind and understanding what he is saying to understand that.


There you go again. It's the merry-go-round that we know so well. Although you'll deny making the point pursuant to your MO, you're implying that Walter's mind is closed and that he lacks the ability to understand what he read. It takes a superior mind, like yours, to intellectually and mentally grasp the genius of Walter Williams.

Many times, it has been pointed out that "conservative" policies that deny homosexual couples the equal right to marry are similar to the policies that once denied interracial couples the equal right to marry. With respect to the right to marry, you reject a comparative analysis. Yet, in the above example, you embrace a comparative analysis. It takes a superior mind, like yours, to understand when a comparative analysis is appropriate and when it is not.

Don't mind me. Don't respond. I'm just pointing out the obvious superiority of your intellect. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 02:01 pm
I've also been meaning to ask if Conservatives still think investing SS funds into the stock market is a good idea.

Can you imagine the carnage that we would be facing if that had been allowed?

Cycloptichorn
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 02:09 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

"Pale in comparison" is not a synomym for trivializing or minimizing or lessening the severity or importance of, Walter.


So Merriam-Webster Unabridged ( "deficient in intensity or strength") is wrong with its definition. Thanks for clarifying.

[There were the discussions about the Pope, bishop Williams recently - all wrong, obviously: they couldn't understand it, those Jews.]
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 02:16 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
That was Bush's idea, wasn't it? Conservatives are so smart about money and investing; it's the rich who keeps our economy running - with the money they saved on taxes, they "invested" it to increase employment. Let's see; how many jobs were lost last year? Yup, gotta keep cutting the taxes for the rich; jobs will come for sure!
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 02:32 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I understand that. I imagine most of the MACs here understand that. And I can't believe that is too complex a concept for the liberal mind either.


Foxfyre wrote:
And here is somebody who understood the principle behind smart government policy re taxation:


What would we do, Foxfyre, if we didn't have YOU to tell us who understands and who doesn't? Who's smart and who's not? LOL I know, I know . . . you have designated yourself as the one who reads and understands everything and has her finger on the public pulse. But, don't you ever get tired of presuming that you're smarter than everyone else? Don't answer; don't respond. Just making an observation about another one of your posting ploys that frustrate and annoy.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 02:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

That was Bush's idea, wasn't it? Conservatives are so smart about money and investing; it's the rich who keeps our economy running - with the money they saved on taxes, they "invested" it to increase employment. Let's see; how many jobs were lost last year? Yup, gotta keep cutting the taxes for the rich; jobs will come for sure!


I expect Reaganomics to work its genius and prosperity is going to trickle down on America at any moment! I feel the rain coming.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 02:53 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Fine Walter. Believe whatever you want. You want to believe Walter Williams has no appreciation for the plight of the Jews under Nazi-ism, and I apparently have no ability to change your mind despite the various times he has written on the subject. It is your prerogative to believe your own preferred definition for an American idiomatic phrase. Evidence to the contrary be damned.

Try this one for a little more insight into Williams' view of the world. (Ican, if you haven't seen this one, I think you'll like it. Smile)

Quote:
Are Americans Pro-Slavery?
by Walter Williams
(June 11, 2008)

Summary: At what point should we consider ourselves a quasi free American -- when government takes two-thirds or three-quarters of our earnings?

Let's do a thought experiment asking whether Americans are for or against slavery. You might say, "What are you talking about, Williams? We fought a war that cost over 600,000 lives to end slavery!" To get started, we might find a description that captures the essence of slavery. A good working description is: slavery is a set of circumstances whereby one person is forcibly used to serve the purposes of another person and has no legal claim to the fruits of his labor.

The average American worker toils from January 1st to the end of April, and has no legal claim to the fruits of his labor for that period. Federal, state and local governments, through the tax code, take what he produces. A small portion of the fruits of his labor is used to provide for the constitutional functions of government. Most of what's taken, up to two-thirds, is given to some other American in the forms of farm and business subsidies, Social Security, Medicare, welfare and hundreds of other government handout programs. As in slavery, one person is being forcibly used to serve the purposes of another person.

You might ask, "Williams, aren't you a bit off base? Slavery means that you are owned by another person." Who owns a person is not nearly important as who has the rights to use that person. In other words, a plantation owner having the power to force a black to work for him would have been just as well off, and possibly better off, not owning him. Not owning him means not having to bear medical expenses and loss of wealth if the slave died. During World War II, Nazis didn't own Jews, but they had the power to force them to labor for them. Not owning Jews meant that working and starving them to death had little cost to the Nazis. The fact that American slaves were owned, with prices sometimes ranging from $800 to $1,300, meant that owners had a financial stake in the slave's well-being and they were not worked and starved to death.

You might argue that my analogy is irrelevant because unlike American slaves and Nazi concentration camp inmates, we can come and go as we please, live where we want, buy a car, clothes and other things with the money left over after the government gets four months' worth of our earnings. But, does that make much of a difference?

During slavery, visitors to the South often observed "a great many loose negroes about." Officials in Savannah, Mobile and Charleston and other cities complained about "nominal slaves," "virtually free negroes," and "quasi free negroes" who were seemingly oblivious to any law or regulation. Frederick Douglass, a slave, explained this phenomenon when he was employed as a Baltimore ship's caulker: "I was to be allowed all my time; to make bargains for work; to find my own employment, and to collect my own wages; and in return for this liberty, I was … to pay him (Douglass' master) three dollars at the end of each week, and to board and clothe myself, and buy my own caulking tools."

There are some benefits to being a quasi free person such as Frederick Douglass. There are two ways U.S. Congress might force me to serve the purposes of another American. They might force me spend a couple of hours each day actually working, without compensation, for another American. Or, they might forcibly take a portion of my earnings so that American can hire someone. I see myself as being better off with Congress doing the latter -- taking a portion of my earnings and giving it away.

Some might be put off by my thought experiment and consider it an illegitimate use of the term "slavery." At what point should we consider ourselves a quasi free American -- when government takes two-thirds or three-quarters of our earnings?
http://www.capmag.com/articlePrint.asp?ID=5199


Or here, on a different subject, but providing an idea of Williams' perspective about things. How many Jews died under Hitler's policies? Would you not consider it at least equal if not greater atrocity the 62 million who died under Soviet communism or the 30+ million that Mao killed in China? THIS was Williams' point in the phrase for which you condemn him.

Excerpt:
Quote:
Think back to the 1930s when the Japanese murdered an estimated 3 million to 10 million people in China, Indonesia, Korea, Philippines and Indochina; and on December 7, 1941 when they attacked Pearl Harbor, killing over 2,400 Americans. I'm betting that most of Japan's at-the-time 60 million population were peace-loving people and would have wanted nothing to do with the brutal slaughter in China and the attack on the U.S. In formulating our response to the attack, should President Roosevelt have taken into account the fact that most Japanese are peace-loving people ruled by fanatics? Should our military have only gone after the Japanese pilots and their naval armada? I'd also wager that most Germans were peace-loving people and not part of the Nazi sadists wanting to wage war on their neighbors and exterminate the Jews. Again, should Roosevelt and Churchill have taken that into account in their response to German militarism? My answer is no and thank God it was their answer as well. Whether most Germans, Italians or Japanese were peace-loving or not was entirely irrelevant in formulating the Allied response to their militarism.

Horrible acts can be committed in countries where most of the people are peace-loving and simply want to be left alone to attend to their affairs.
I imagine that described most of the people in the former Soviet Union; however, that did not stop the killing of an estimated 62 million people between 1917 and 1987. The same can be said of the Chinese people, but it didn't stop the killing of 35 million of their countrymen during Mao Zedong's reign. Whether most people of a country are peace-loving or not is not nearly as important as who's calling the shots.
http://www.creators.com/opinion/walter-williams/peace-loving-muslims.html


And this
Excerpt
Quote:
The pursuit of social justice probably accounts for most human misery. What’s more, throughout history, one form of injustice has usually been replaced by another that is far worse. Russia’s 1917 revolution expelling the Czars and their injustices ushered in Lenin, Stalin, and a succession of brutal dictators who murdered tens of millions in the name of the proletarian revolution. The injustices of Chiang Kai-shek were replaced with those of Mao Zedong; Castro’s ousting of Batista and Ayatollah Khomeini’s toppling of the Shah of Iran produced regimes far more brutal. After Africa became independent the injustices of colonial powers were replaced with those of brutal dictators.

The slaughter of nearly 200 million poor souls, not including war deaths, during the twentieth century was a direct result of the pursuit of visions of social justice, such as income equality, the common good, and the various alternatives to the so-called evils of capitalism. As if by design, measures taken to produce what was seen as the good society lowered both the common man’s human-rights protections and his standard of living.

By contrast, after the American revolution, we laid the groundwork that produced the world’s freest people. However, for most of the twentieth century, we have been losing ground. If you ask which way are we heading"away from totalitarianism or toward it"there is no question that, by tiny steps, we are heading toward totalitarianism and arbitrary governmental abuse and control.

Some Americans are naive enough to think that the oppression seen in other countries can’t happen here. But let’s not forget that the country that gave the world great men like Goethe, von Humboldt, Beethoven, Bach, and Schiller also gave us Auschwitz, Buchenwald, and Treblinka. Also keep in mind that it was German-Americans who helped create the underground railroad to assist runaway slaves, and it was German-Americans who had the best reputation for getting along with the Indians. Let’s also not forget that pre-Nazi Germany provided Jews with one of the most hospitable climates in Europe, so much so that during the early 1900s, in nearly one-half of all Jewish marriages, one of the spouses was a German gentile.

If social justice has any operational meaning at all, it is that the purpose of law is to prevent one person from violating another person’s fight to acquire, keep, and dispose of property in any manner so long as he doesn’t violate another’s simultaneously held fights, In other words, laws should be written to prevent force and fraud. Laws that force one person to serve the purposes of another are immoral. These values, expressed in our Declaration of Independence as the unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, guided the framers in the writing of our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Today, our government has become increasingly destructive of the ends it was created to serve. Americans have become increasingly hostile and alien to the liberties envisioned by the framers. We have disregarded the inscription that graces the U.S. Department of Justice: "Where the law ends tyranny begins."
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 03:12 pm
@Foxfyre,
Link for the last excerpt:
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/social-justice-2/
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 03:15 pm
@okie,
Okie, I understand that your suggestion that I quit talking to ci is justified, if my objective were to obtain rational responses from ci. That's not my objective. My objective is to calibrate ci's irrationality. More accurately, my objective is to measure his irrationality to determine if it is decreasing or increasing and at what rate.

His last response demonstrated his increasing rate of decline. His inability to admit that the quality of life for increasing numbers of Americans has dramatically improved over the last 100 years, reveals his decline to be even worse than I suspected. What's his irrational argument to the contrary? He points out that not every American's quality of life has improved to the same degree, therefore there has been no improvement. His additional examples to demonstrate his point are the lives of people in the world who are not blessed with living in America's constitutional republic.

I deduce from his arguments that he values equality of results far more than he values equality of rights in the pursuit of happiness. While he may not respond to this post of mine to you, if he were to respond, I expect it would be even more revealing of his decline.
 

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